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Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

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Like Loren, I see Israeli defense against a violent neighbor remarkably measured and precise.

Maybe y'all could produce an example of another similar situation that someone handled better? Be sure and stick to examples where the aggressors used human shields tactics.
Tom
Don't need that restriction. Simply a situation attacking a dug-in foe in a suburban/urban environment that has not been evacuated.

Hint: You'll find one example. Israel against Hezbollah.

Gaza, with human shield tactics, Israel seems to be running somewhere near 50% combatants but the data isn't good enough to say better. Against Hezbollah, urban but little in the way of human shield tactics, it's about 90% combatants.
 
The U.S. didn’t “invade” Japan in World War II. :rolleyes: It ended the war via dropping two atom bombs — two huge war crimes.
We did attack, though.

1) What was the worst attack on Japan of WWII? Hint: The answer is not Hiroshima nor Nagasaki.

2) The Japanese production capacity was sufficiently decentralized that we lacked the ability to target it. We were simply leveling the cities. Hiroshima and Nagasaki had been basically left alone to have pristine targets for the bombs, had the bombs not been involved they would no doubt have fared even worse.

3) The bombs were not war crimes at all.

4) Although we didn't know it at the time it turned out that the bombs were actually the best course of action for all groups except the civilians of those two cities and perhaps even for them. Note that the group "all Japanese civilians" ended up better off than for any other course of action. And, yes, that "any" includes simply stopping shooting.
 
In any case, it is perfectly ridiculous to compare the Gazan population, half of whom are children, which has no army and is being forcibly displaced and starved, to the massive Japanese war machine. :rolleyes: How more ridiculous can you get? But as with Trump, I see there is no floor here.
The Japanese civilians had about as much say about WWII as the Gazan civilians have to say about the war with Israel.
 
Your 2nd sentence is internally inconsistent: Gazans suffering because they are shields is a tacit admission of collective punishment. Pointing out your illogica claims has nothing to do with justifying terrorism by Muslims or anyone for that matter, so when you sling such bs, it makes your posts appear more like the ravings of a genocidal anti-Arab bigot than a reasoned defense of of Israel's actions.
No. Punishment implies intent. The intent is to harm Hamas, there is no intent on Israel's part to harm the civilians. (There clearly is an intent to harm them on Hamas' part but it's to use them as a weapon, generally not as punishment.)
Since there are less destructive methods to achieve their goal of punishing Hamas, the intent is revealed in their choices.
You asserted this before, but only came up with nonsense when asked for what less destructive methods.
 
You say Israel isn’t punishing civilians, just Hamas, but when over 2 million people suffer every day under policies deliberately maintained for years, intent starts to matter less than outcome.

Now, if the argument is that Hamas is at fault for forcing Israel into these actions, let’s be clear: Hamas bears responsibility for its atrocities and for putting civilians at risk. No one is denying that. But that doesn’t absolve Israel from accountability for its own choices.
1) Hamas is the one deliberately keeping the people down.

2) You might be a masochist and favor turning the other cheek when someone's trying to kill you but that doesn't mean you can expect others to do the same.

When a state with overwhelming military power and full control over a population’s borders, food, water, and electricity chooses policies that systematically destroy infrastructure, block aid, and make daily life unlivable, that's not “being forced.” That’s a strategy.
Hamas fights on.

Why would Israel do this? Because it serves multiple goals:
  • It acts as deterrence through suffering, designed to turn the population against Hamas by crushing their quality of life.
Definitely not an objective. Crushing their quality of life is a deliberate Hamas objective, Israel isn't going to choose to play to it!
  • It plays well in Israeli domestic politics, where being “tough on Gaza” wins elections.
The people are extremely upset about the hostages.
  • It undermines any realistic two-state solution by keeping Gaza destabilized and separate from the West Bank.
Iran won't agree to a two state solution.

  • It sends a regional warning: cross us, and we’ll make your people pay.
Everyone around already knows that Israel is a porcupine. Mess with them, you get hurt. Leave them alone, they leave you alone. But tolerating a terrorist wing within your government (Hezbollah) is not leaving them alone.

  • And finally, it's enabled by decades of dehumanization, where Gazans are treated as extensions of Hamas, not civilians with rights.
Happens under every oppressive government.
So yes, Hamas commits war crimes. But, If your justification is “Israel had to do this,” then you’re saying there’s no line, no amount of civilian suffering that would ever make you say “this is too far.” And that’s a dangerous place to be.
And you have fallen for the Hamas line. "Amount of civilian suffering" as a yardstick is surrender to whoever is the most evil. Make your own people suffer to deceive the world is right out of the playbook.

Accountability isn’t a zero-sum game. Hamas being evil doesn’t make every Israeli action righteous. Two wrongs don’t make one democracy.
But you are point to Hamas evils and blaming Israel. Exactly as they intended you to.

Of course, some will take this as me accusing Israel of war crimes. I get it, it's hard for the intellectually challenged to tell the difference between sharing an opinion and stating a fact.
I keep hearing this chant of war crimes--and the death toll is cited as evidence. If there were actual war crimes the death toll wouldn't be being cited over and over.
 
It’s convenient to say “this is the only option” after exhausting military force becomes the norm. But historically, Israel hasn’t exactly explored every alternative in good faith, and when it has, it's often done so with constraints, preconditions, or political motives that made real progress nearly impossible.
But eternally saying they haven't explored every alternative doesn't make it so.
Yes, Iran’s influence and Palestinian political dysfunction complicate things. No one is pretending Hamas, or even Fatah at times, has made diplomacy easy. But to say Israel had no other option is revisionist.
The problem is you are trying to play Monday Morning Quarterback. You don't get to decree their playbook, you do something differently, they're going to do something differently. Realistically, Iran doesn't want peace, there won't be peace.
 

No. I'm saying they are doing better than anyone else, I feel they are meeting the burden.
You keep saying this and you have been asked before. Who are you making this comparison to to declare "They are doing better"?
Everyone. Including the US.
That sounds like more of a dodge than a real answer. How about being a little more specific?
We've been down this one before. You managed to find a site that basically said combat doesn't have to be deadly to civilians because combat is always deadly either the civilians or the attacking force. Yes, effectively claiming !p because p.
That is non-responsive jibber jabber. Produce your data.
 
Let me get this straight:
  • A barefoot guy tries to surrender? "Oops, too many fake surrenders, so we shot him."
100 times it's a ruse by Hamas. Once it's real. Understand how mistakes get made?
  • A woman with a preschooler waving a white flag? "Could’ve been a threat. Snipers are just quirky like that."
We still have no evidence that this was Israel. And it sure looks like Hamas.
  • Ambulance workers getting killed? "Should’ve picked better passengers."
Military transport is military transport even if they paint "ambulance" on it.
  • Doctors getting kidnapped and tortured? "Well, they might be Hamas, so who cares."
Was Hamas.
  • Wounded man tied to a vehicle? "Totally fine. Safer that way, for us."
And you have some magic solution that keeps him from grabbing somebody's weapon?
  • And when people point any of this out? "You're just quoting Hamas."
You keep misrepresenting things.
That isn’t a defense, it’s a highlight reel of how far people will go to justify anything, as long as the right side is doing it.
 
Here's a good video on why so many progressives have ended up supporting Hamas.



He's focused on criticising one Vox article. But I think its a good repressentative of what passes for journalism on the left today.

I personally think that the main reason leftists find it so hard to understand Israel is because they don't understand religious fanaticism. They don't understand how so many people can get so brainwashed, and how so many people can become so single mindedly violent against Israel. We just don’t have this degree of violent mass fanaticism in the west.

I don't think we can imagine a continual rain of rockets (from Lebanon and Gaza into Israel) that goes on for decades. Its absurd. Rockets are not cheap. This is well funded by Iran
 
Let me get this straight:
  • A barefoot guy tries to surrender? "Oops, too many fake surrenders, so we shot him."
100 times it's a ruse by Hamas. Once it's real. Understand how mistakes get made?
  • A woman with a preschooler waving a white flag? "Could’ve been a threat. Snipers are just quirky like that."
We still have no evidence that this was Israel. And it sure looks like Hamas.
  • Ambulance workers getting killed? "Should’ve picked better passengers."
Military transport is military transport even if they paint "ambulance" on it.
  • Doctors getting kidnapped and tortured? "Well, they might be Hamas, so who cares."
Was Hamas.
  • Wounded man tied to a vehicle? "Totally fine. Safer that way, for us."
And you have some magic solution that keeps him from grabbing somebody's weapon?
  • And when people point any of this out? "You're just quoting Hamas."
You keep misrepresenting things.
That isn’t a defense, it’s a highlight reel of how far people will go to justify anything, as long as the right side is doing it.

Its important to understand that underpinning Hamas' entire strategy is using the suffering of the Palestinian people to manipulate western press. And they're doing everything they can to maximise Palestinian civilian casualties.

That's why Hamas dresses their fighters in civilian clothing while fighting. They all have uniforms. As we have seen in the hostage handovers.
 
Hamas manipulates the media for their benefit? No. Never.

Oh well. Kill them all then.
 
Your 2nd sentence is internally inconsistent: Gazans suffering because they are shields is a tacit admission of collective punishment. Pointing out your illogica claims has nothing to do with justifying terrorism by Muslims or anyone for that matter, so when you sling such bs, it makes your posts appear more like the ravings of a genocidal anti-Arab bigot than a reasoned defense of of Israel's actions.
No. Punishment implies intent. The intent is to harm Hamas, there is no intent on Israel's part to harm the civilians. (There clearly is an intent to harm them on Hamas' part but it's to use them as a weapon, generally not as punishment.)
Since there are less destructive methods to achieve their goal of punishing Hamas, the intent is revealed in their choices.
You asserted this before, but only came up with nonsense when asked for what less destructive methods.
Your assertion is based on handwaved dismissals. According to the wargasm crowd, any method that doesn’t result in at least as much destruction, death and misery in the same time frame is “nonsense”.
 
Hamas manipulates the media for their benefit? No. Never.

Oh well. Kill them all then.

I think that is what Israel is doing. And not to belabour the point, I think it is necessary. If Hamas isn't destroyed they're going to take the rest of the Palestinians with them. I'd rather as few Palestinians as possible died. And the only way to achieve that, I think, is to exterminate Hamas. Sooner is better
 
Hamas manipulates the media for their benefit? No. Never.

Oh well. Kill them all then.
That's not even close to the biggest problem.

The biggest problem is that Hamas and the GWM keep using the rest of the Gazans as human shields, demonstrating their huge disregard for human life and welfare.
Tom
 

Yes, the Jewish settlers is a problem. Nobody sane denies that.

Welcome to the world of nuance

Nuance doesn't mean selectively tolerating complexity only when it supports your preferred narrative. In this thread, you rightly point out that Jewish settlers are a problem. But if someone else made that same point — even in moral or legal terms — you'd likely accuse them of antisemitism or being pro-Hamas if they didn't frame it exactly the way you wanted.

We shouldn't downplay the settler issue as a marginal problem. The expansion of settlements in the West Bank has been systematically supported and enabled by the Israeli state for decades. It's not just about rogue individuals; it’s a structural policy. As far back as the 1970s, Israeli governments of both left and right expanded settlements, often displacing Palestinians from their homes and lands. This includes not only settler violence but also demolition orders, land seizures, and legal manipulation through military courts — practices condemned by the UN, Amnesty International, and even Israeli human rights organizations like B’Tselem.

You're right to say that Hamas is evil. Their ideology and actions — including the deliberate targeting of civilians — are indefensible. But if we're being honest about provocations, we must recognize that October 7 didn't come from a vacuum. To say that attack was “unprovoked” is a political framing that erases decades of occupation, blockade, and military violence — none of which justifies Hamas’s actions, but all of which explain the build-up to them.

Itamar Ben Gvir, a far-right Israeli minister who has openly admired Meir Kahane (whose party was banned for racism and whose ideology inspired Jewish terrorism), has played a central role in provocations. His visits to Al-Aqsa Mosque, framed as "assertions of Jewish rights," are perceived by Palestinians as deeply antagonistic and desecrating. Such actions inflame already volatile tensions and empower extremists on both sides.

The earlier momentum toward a two-state solution was indeed a real prospect — most notably during the Oslo Accords in the 1990s, championed by Yitzhak Rabin and Shimon Peres on the Israeli side, and Yasser Arafat for the PLO. Tragically, Rabin was assassinated in 1995 by Yigal Amir, an Israeli ultranationalist who opposed territorial concessions. That assassination wasn’t just symbolic — it was a turning point. Likewise, on the Palestinian side, moderates have often been sidelined or outright suppressed by more radical factions, including Hamas, which has been known to assassinate political rivals and impose authoritarian rule in Gaza.

So yes — on both sides, extremists citing ancient religious claims have used those narratives to justify land seizure, violence, and even the killing of children — all in the name of divine entitlement.

There was a time when coexistence and mutual recognition seemed within reach, fragile but possible. That window may have closed, perhaps permanently. But one thing is certain: dismissing history, using double standards, or shutting down critical voices by accusing them of extremism or bigotry only drives us further from peace. If we want to resurrect the hope of a better way forward, it will require exactly the kind of uncomfortable honesty that gets people labeled unfairly in threads like this one.
 
And you have fallen for the Hamas line. "Amount of civilian suffering" as a yardstick is surrender to whoever is the most evil. Make your own people suffer to deceive the world is right out of the playbook.

You're misrepresenting the argument. As usual. :rolleyes: Acknowledging the scale of civilian suffering doesn't mean falling for Hamas propaganda, it means recognizing the real-world consequences of military actions. The idea that prioritizing civilian lives is "surrender" is all in your imagination.

Yes, avoiding civilian casualties does make it harder to root out Hamas, but that’s the burden of fighting asymmetric warfare while claiming moral high ground. You can wage war with restraint without falling for your enemy's narrative. Pretending those goals are mutually exclusive is how atrocities get normalized.
 
Hamas manipulates the media for their benefit? No. Never.

Oh well. Kill them all then.

I think that is what Israel is doing. And not to belabour the point, I think it is necessary. If Hamas isn't destroyed they're going to take the rest of the Palestinians with them. I'd rather as few Palestinians as possible died. And the only way to achieve that, I think, is to exterminate Hamas. Sooner is better

Let me get this straight, when you express concern for Palestinian civilians, it's compassion. But when I do it, it's falling for Hamas propaganda? That is precisely what I've been saying all along!!
 
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