Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Tigers!]

It is serious. People are dying. Their deaths are completely unrelated to whether calling hostage holding an "attack" or not. But their deaths are directly related to whether or not bombs are dropping or bullets are flying.

Kidnapping is a crime regardless of when the victims are recovered. Nothing changes that. I

I realize that calling hostage holding an attack makes the supporters of Israel's current actions feel better. If your view is that these discussions are simply therapeutic that helps me understand the persistence in your emotional rhetoric and apparent need to fling bullshit accusations.

This is the sort of thing I'm referring to as "terrorist apologetics".

You might not care much about them or the people who care about them. But every single day of captivity is an attack on Israel.
Tom

It isn't an attack. It is injustice, grossly immoral, a crime, and worse it is blackmail against Israel from seeking justice for the atrocity committed against it.

Calling it an "attack" is a needless distraction that seems more interested in semantics than the actual suffering out there.

Currently, the Palestinians are suffering from lack of aid due to gangs seizing aid trucks. The odd part, Hamas apparently is powerless to stop the much smaller gangs. Palestine feels like the Middle East version of Haiti.

Its not odd at all. Hamas could stop it. But letting the gangs take the suppliers enables Hamas et. al to make a (false) claim that is is Israel's fault (and the west)

 

[Gospel]

It isn't an attack. It is injustice, grossly immoral, a crime, and worse it is blackmail against Israel from seeking justice for the atrocity committed against it.

Calling it an "attack" is a needless distraction that seems more interested in semantics than the actual suffering out there.

It's an act of terrorism. Calling it an attack is not semantics.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

They still have the hostages. That is a form of attack.

George Orwell would be proud of your rhetoric.

Holding hostages is not a form of attack. It is a terrible crime and tragedy, but it is not an attack.

I think this comes down to definitions.

But whether or not you consider holding them to be an attack torturing them certainly is.

And you know there are hostages currently being tortured because…?

We know they kept torturing the ones that Israel has gotten back. Why should we think they stopped?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

there are a lot of people who demand absolute perfection

I literally said, 'I’m not expecting a perfect answer (none exist).' If you don’t want to answer the question, you’re free to ignore it. Your comment about there being 'a lot of people who demand absolute perfection' is just your opinion, I don’t expect perfection. Do I really have to defend opinions I don’t hold just to get a response from you? Are you sure we’re stuck on this because others are demanding perfection, or is that just a strawman you’ve created? I hope you're talking to me, not to others.

You keep saying this--but always expect Israel to do better.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Urban Myths? Exploring assumptions in the literature of urban Warfare: Part 2

????

In 1994, the Russians were invading a city with a high ethnic Russian population, so, while they bombarded, they refrained from advancing behind the curtain of explosives (which historically had such a proven protective effect). And the Somalis simply didn’t own the ordnance. In its absence they both suffered fearsome casualties. The Russians returned to Chechnya in 1999 and reverted to the proven formula, effectively destroying the city of Grozny - and were condemned for doing so by the international community.

They claim urban warfare isn't particularly bloody, yet they aren't finding examples of it other than where the city has already been smashed from the skies. Of course it's not that bloody if you're just mopping up.

You're ignoring the entirety of the rest of the article.

Israel still wants our 2000 lb bombs. Biden has refused to provide them for humanitarian puposes.

Where does it provide any examples of intact cities being taken without it being horribly bloody??

The US is not against bombing. They are against indiscriminate bombing. That's why they stopped providing 2000 lb bombs.

Selective bombing prior to ground engagement is always going to happen.

Major goalpost shift here.

And the big bombs were for the tunnels. 2000 pound bombs not underground would create far more damage than what we've seen.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israel, Egypt prove diplomacy isn't impossible. It can be costly though.

No. What happened with Egypt shows that the Islamists care more about the conflict than about any particular aspect of it. Peace with Egypt simply moves the conflict, it doesn't end it.

Except the whole Egypt isn't attacking Israel part.

Because the terror money is going to Hamas and the like. The smaller and more messed up the country the more ability Iran has to control it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Stop placing your liberal fantasy into the mouths of the Palestinians. Listen to what they are saying

If you don’t mind me asking, what exactly do you mean by 'listen to what they are saying'? I assume you’re referring to a platform you consider trustworthy. Could you share where you’ve been hearing from the Palestinians?

Obviously, we can't know for sure.

But we have plenty of examples of their high people saying the reason is the existence of Israel.

 

[Gospel]

there are a lot of people who demand absolute perfection

I literally said, 'I’m not expecting a perfect answer (none exist).' If you don’t want to answer the question, you’re free to ignore it. Your comment about there being 'a lot of people who demand absolute perfection' is just your opinion, I don’t expect perfection. Do I really have to defend opinions I don’t hold just to get a response from you? Are you sure we’re stuck on this because others are demanding perfection, or is that just a strawman you’ve created? I hope you're talking to me, not to others.

You keep saying this--but always expect Israel to do better.

Israel is already doing better than Hamas because Israel is not classified as a terrorist organization. Are you suggesting that Israel is not doing better than Hamas? If you genuinely believe I expect Israel to outperform Hamas, that would imply you think Hamas is somehow doing better than Israel.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

For example, did you know that for many Israelis, the term 'Palestinian' is seen primarily as a political identity tied to nationalism? Meanwhile, Palestinians view it as an expression of their peoplehood, a core part of who they are. Did you know that in Israel, speaking Arabic in public can sometimes evoke fear or suspicion? Or that Palestinians living in traditional households often face barriers even in participating in peace initiatives because those programs don’t account for their cultural realities?

It's a manufactured identity. Before 1948 there were no Palestinians. It was simply an area, not distinct from the areas around it.

And in times of war hearing the language of your enemy will tend to evoke suspicion, even when it's a language spoken by some of your own people also.

You should already know these things. If you don’t, it’s because you aren’t paying attention to people, you’re just the product of the media you consume.

The thing is you are acting like this somehow changes what Hamas is.

More inconvenient truths: in some parts of Gaza, a person can face violence or worse from their own family for being anything other than heterosexual. It’s a stark reminder that the oppression Palestinians face isn’t just external, it’s internal too. Similarly, Palestinian girls from traditional households in East Jerusalem or the West Bank often can’t participate in peace programs because these initiatives fail to account for cultural realities, like conservative views on gender segregation or the mistrust families feel toward activities perceived as too "foreign."

And that's Israel's fault how?

Both sides face pressures within their own communities. Jewish Israelis are shamed into silence if they express empathy for Palestinians (like some of you do here for so called terrorist apologist), while Palestinians sometimes feel pressure to mute their pain to avoid being labeled a "good Arab" or an apologist for Israel. These internal dynamics are often swept under the rug, just like the complexities of this conflict that your soundbite-driven worldview continues to ignore.

"Terrorist apologist" isn't about the average person in Gaza. It's about acting like Israel is to blame for what Hamas does.

This conflict will never end as long as people on both sides resort to screaming "terrorist apologist." Such rhetoric only serves to deepen division and hatred, the very fuel that sustains groups like Hamas. In doing so, you are endangering the Israeli people far more than Hamas ever could by perpetuating the cycle of fear and hostility that extremists depend on to justify their actions.

This conflict will end when and only when the flow of money for terror stops. This is not Israel vs Gaza, it's Israel vs radical Islam and some fellows of convenience. And because it's not Israel vs Gaza nothing that happens in Israel vs Gaza can end the war.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There must be greater recognition of the real human toll on both ends of this conflict. Innocent Palestinians, caught in the crossfire simply because they live in a combat zone or were born into this situation, deserve acknowledgment and compassion, not dismissal (because herp-derp Hamas). Behind every statistic is a person whose life was tragically cut short.

What you don't understand is that by taking this position you are aiding Hamas. They are using the suffering of their people as a weapon.

The issue of the IDF allegedly killing surrendering civilians has been discussed in two opposing ways. Some use it to argue that Israeli disregards internationally accepted rules of engagement, while others attempt to justify these deaths by pointing to Hamas’s well-documented use of civilians as shields.

In reality, the situation is likely far less hit piece and far more real. IDF soldiers operate in an extraordinarily hostile environment where Hamas employs tactics such as setting booby traps, disguising combatants as civilians to launch ambushes, and using decoy civilians to lure personnel into traps. These are the grim realities of the conflict, and they take a profound psychological toll on soldiers.

Under such intense pressure and trauma, it is tragically predictable that mistakes can happen, leading to the loss of innocent lives. Soldiers are thrust into chaotic, high-stakes scenarios where the line between threat and safety is often unclear.

Exactly. Hamas does everything it can to confuse the picture, mistakes will happen. But then you go on to get it backwards:

Innocent people dying in these circumstances is an undeniable tragedy, and the soldiers involved will likely carry that burden for the rest of their lives. Rather than justifying these incidents because herp-derp Hamas, how about you acknowledge the human cost? It’s unlikely that any genuine IDF soldier would find comfort in the kinds of rationalizations or excuses I’ve seen on this forum. And by 'genuine soldiers,' I mean those who serve with integrity, not the bad actors who exist in every military establishment worldwide. That’s a whole other issue: how we often allow the worst individuals to shape perceptions of a nation’s military personnel. This includes the shitty leadership at the top. To me, it’s absurd.

I apologies for the ranting.

We blame Hamas because it's a Hamas tactic to try to cause such mistakes.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm optimistic because I believe in the goodness of the people in both Israel and Palestine. I've seen podcasts where everyday individuals from both sides come together to discuss their cultural differences and the devastating breakdowns that fuel the violence. I genuinely believe that ordinary people have the power to find common ground. It's the extremists who shout "death to Israel" and the apologists who make excuses for violence as a result that prop up the barriers to peace.

Your mistake here is in thinking that Gaza can make peace. They are not a primary actor in the conflict and thus have no ability to decide war or peace.

I'll pay attention to peace talks when Iran is sitting at the table. Until then it's an exercise in pretending to care.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I think your view on this is fucked up. I think you are bending over backwards to reinterptet Hamas crimes, so it'll feel better for you. This is serious. People are dying

It is serious. People are dying. Their deaths are completely unrelated to whether calling hostage holding an "attack" or not. But their deaths are directly related to whether or not bombs are dropping or bullets are flying.

Kidnapping is a crime regardless of when the victims are recovered. Nothing changes that. I

I realize that calling hostage holding an attack makes the supporters of Israel's current actions feel better. If your view is that these discussions are simply therapeutic that helps me understand the persistence in your emotional rhetoric and apparent need to fling bullshit accusations.

And you respond by bending over some more.

You care about Palestinian harm from the war, but you are ignoring harm to the hostages.

If Gaza wants the war to end release the hostages. If they continue to hold them it's clear they want to continue the war, no matter how badly they are getting their asses kicked.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It is serious. People are dying. Their deaths are completely unrelated to whether calling hostage holding an "attack" or not. But their deaths are directly related to whether or not bombs are dropping or bullets are flying.

Kidnapping is a crime regardless of when the victims are recovered. Nothing changes that. I

I realize that calling hostage holding an attack makes the supporters of Israel's current actions feel better. If your view is that these discussions are simply therapeutic that helps me understand the persistence in your emotional rhetoric and apparent need to fling bullshit accusations.

This is the sort of thing I'm referring to as "terrorist apologetics".

You might not care much about them or the people who care about them. But every single day of captivity is an attack on Israel.
Tom

Since nothing I wrote on this excuses or explains terrorist activity, your terminology is misleading. Either that is unintentional or it is a conscious attempt to emotional rhetoric to obscure the lack of actual thought and content in your responses.

The degree with which someone cares about the situation has nothing to do with accurately describing it. You literally have no idea how much or little I care about the hostages or their families.

If it makes you feel better to fling bullshit then I suppose it has some value in that therapy. However any therapeutic value it gives to you and those who feel the seem way is offset by the lack of credibility it lends to your responses.

And once again you respond with misdirection rather than addressing the point.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I’m honestly exhausted by the cherry-picked facts that are framed to support some of the most disconnected views on this conflict. From my view it's using the views of extremists to create conflicting identities for Israelis and Palestinians that have little to do with the reality of everyday people.

Well I’ve been exhausted by this conflict for 20 years! IMO, there is no solution that will satisfy both sides. The fighting there will never permanently end.

Isn't that the problem. Can it really be said that there are two sides when neither party really has a viable goal?

Israel does have a goal, just not a perfect one: minimize the attacks on Israelis. They know they can't reduce them to zero.

The Israelis, likely in majority just want the violence to end. Palestinians, I can't say. They've been fighting for so long, they might not remember was peacetime is like. But those with their hands on the weapons? Oh boy... they don't want peace.

Of course they would like it to end but not at the price of suicide. And that's Israel's choice: fight or die.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It is serious. People are dying. Their deaths are completely unrelated to whether calling hostage holding an "attack" or not. But their deaths are directly related to whether or not bombs are dropping or bullets are flying.

Kidnapping is a crime regardless of when the victims are recovered. Nothing changes that. I

I realize that calling hostage holding an attack makes the supporters of Israel's current actions feel better. If your view is that these discussions are simply therapeutic that helps me understand the persistence in your emotional rhetoric and apparent need to fling bullshit accusations.

This is the sort of thing I'm referring to as "terrorist apologetics".

You might not care much about them or the people who care about them. But every single day of captivity is an attack on Israel.
Tom

It isn't an attack. It is injustice, grossly immoral, a crime, and worse it is blackmail against Israel from seeking justice for the atrocity committed against it.

Calling it an "attack" is a needless distraction that seems more interested in semantics than the actual suffering out there.

Currently, the Palestinians are suffering from lack of aid due to gangs seizing aid trucks. The odd part, Hamas apparently is powerless to stop the much smaller gangs. Palestine feels like the Middle East version of Haiti.

And why do we think it's not Hamas seizing the aid trucks like they routinely do?

 

[Gospel]

@Loren Pechtel

I'm going to say this one last time. I am fully aware of what Hamas is and the atrocities they have committed. Their deliberate targeting of civilians, use of human shields, and brutal tactics are reprehensible and indefensible. Let me be absolutely clear: I do not support Hamas, nor do I excuse their actions in any way. If you continue to claim otherwise I cannot promise you that I won't become fucking unreasonable.

 

[Gospel]

Your mistake here is in thinking that Gaza can make peace. They are not a primary actor in the conflict and thus have no ability to decide war or peace.

Yes, I'm fully aware of the role Iran plays, and I've emphasized that multiple times in this discussion. However, my focus here is on Israel's endgame in Gaza. Right now, they are working to remove Hamas, a goal I believe they can achieve. But the critical question is: what comes next after Hamas is ousted? Beyond military action, the key lies in winning the hearts and minds of the people in Gaza.

In my view, the only way to do that is by actively engaging with the people. People who are already deeply intertwined with Israel, at the civilian level. The best path forward, in my opinion, is to support those willing to rebuild their communities, stay engaged, and work together to ensure that organizations like Hamas & Iran's influence is kept out of Gaza. It won't be easy due to cultural differences that I've mentioned, but it's doable. I’d argue that despite the challenges ahead, it would still be better than the current situation under Hamas terrorism.

 

[Gospel]

Innocent people dying in these circumstances is an undeniable tragedy, and the soldiers involved will likely carry that burden for the rest of their lives. Rather than justifying these incidents because herp-derp Hamas, how about you acknowledge the human cost? It’s unlikely that any genuine IDF soldier would find comfort in the kinds of rationalizations or excuses I’ve seen on this forum. And by 'genuine soldiers,' I mean those who serve with integrity, not the bad actors who exist in every military establishment worldwide. That’s a whole other issue: how we often allow the worst individuals to shape perceptions of a nation’s military personnel. This includes the shitty leadership at the top. To me, it’s absurd.

I apologies for the ranting.

We blame Hamas because it's a Hamas tactic to try to cause such mistakes.

I don’t even know where to begin with this. Did you actually read what I wrote, or were you just eager to include Hamas in your response? What I clearly stated is that mistakes are inevitable, and I explained how Hamas’s actions contribute to those mistakes. I LITERALLY SAID THAT! What I disagree with is excusing soldiers who intentionally do wrong, as well as unfairly labeling the entire IDF as bad because of the actions of a few individuals. I understand that you blame Hamas for everything—you’ve made it clear that, in your view, a soldier can intentionally kill a civilian, and the mere existence of Hamas makes that acceptable. I’m not here to change your mind.

 

[Gospel]

It's a manufactured identity. Before 1948 there were no Palestinians. It was simply an area, not distinct from the areas around it.

The term African American wasn't a thing until the late 1980s. What's your point here?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Since nothing I wrote on this excuses or explains terrorist activity, your terminology is misleading.

You found a bit of pedantry to hand wave the attacks Gazan leadership is perpetrating on Israel Today. Tom

Perhaps if you could provide a link to an actual attack on Israel today from Gaza,, it might lessen the irony of your baseless accusation.

So you are saying al the hostages are dead? Because a suffering hostage is an attack on Israel.