Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Derec]

Same place you Aussies go.

Olduvai Gorge would become mighty crowded.

 

[Derec]

I didn't say they have to leave. Loren said there was no alternative to the war. Yes, there is an alternative. They can leave.

So can so-called "Palestinians".
As even the Hamas leader Fathi Hamad admitted, "half of Palestinians are Egyptian and half are Saudis".
Have you ever wondered why an allegedly "indigenous" people would use Roman colonial names for themselves and "their" land, a name that starts with a letter that does not even exist in their language (i.e. 'P')? Same goes for the city of Nablus, a corruption of the colonial name "Neapolis" (see the 'p' again!) for a city whose indigenous name is Shechem.
So-called "Palestinians" are the true settler colonialists in the Land of Israel.

 

[Derec]

*Hamas says the "Zionist entity" must go. Whether or not that means the complete removal of all Jews from Palestine is not clear, but it is obvious they do not want a Jewish State there, and will not tolerate Christian and Muslims Palestinians to be subjugated by one.

They prefer to be the ones doing the subjugating.
Never mind that Arab citizens of Israel have a lot more rights than Gazans under Hamas.
All the way back in 2009: Palestinian Hamas Bans Motorbike Rides For Women
2013: Hamas segregates Gaza schools by gender

The new decision is one of many polarising measures that Hamas has recently taken. Earlier this year, it launched a “Virtue Campaign” aiming to spread Islamic Sharia traditions in Gaza by fighting against “Western” dress and behaviour.
In March, Hamas banned women and girls from participating in Gaza’s UNRWA-organised marathon, causing the UN agency to cancel the event in protest. Other Hamas bans prohibit women from smoking water pipes in public, riding on the back of motorcycles, and having male stylists do their hair.
“In the last six years, Hamas has been going forward – and sometimes a step backward because of protests – but there is a strategy to implement the Islamic law in society,” said Mkhaimar Abu Sada, a Gaza political analyst and university lecturer.

And 2021: Women need male guardian to travel, says Hamas court in Gaza Strip

 

[Arctish]

In other words, the only answer is the destruction of Israel and the genocide of the Jews?

Or they could just leave and give the country back to the people they stole it from.

Where will the Jews go once they have left the ME? Can they stay at your place?

Who says they have to leave the Middle East?

Ziprhead?

I didn't say they have to leave. Loren said there was no alternative to the war. Yes, there is an alternative. They can leave.

Here's another option.

Israel's Muslim neighbors, particularly the Palestinians, decide that they would prefer cooperation, prosperity, and peace. Instead of conflict, poverty, and war.

Given the history of the centuries, the last 70+ years in particular, it will probably take a generation or two before the Israelis believe in the change. But the most current assault (Oct 7, 2023) probably added another generation.
Tom

Okay, let's go with that.

What treaty or set of accords do you propose for both the Palestinians and the Israelis to adopt to settle their dispute? What are the general terms, how are they different from previous agreements that failed to result in peace, and how will they be implemented and enforced?

 

[Tigers!]

In other words, the only answer is the destruction of Israel and the genocide of the Jews?

Or they could just leave and give the country back to the people they stole it from.

Where will the Jews go once they have left the ME? Can they stay at your place?

They should go back where they came from. MAGA!

You have to admit that no one asked the Palestinians already living there if it was okay to give their country to foreigners.

The followers of Mohammed did not ask in the 7th C. AD if it was ok for them to invade the area between the river and the sea.
It is ahuge problem - inavding others terrority and it has been going on since time immemorial

You think it's a joke that Trump wants to take over Canada, Greenland, etc. You know it's absurd. But that was exactly what was done to the Palestinians that were already living there, including Jews and Christians.

And in the US and in Aust. etc.

 

[Tigers!]

*Hamas says the "Zionist entity" must go. Whether or not that means the complete removal of all Jews from Palestine is not clear, but it is obvious they do not want a Jewish State there, and will not tolerate Christian and Muslims Palestinians to be subjugated by one.

I am still looking for the part of the Hamas Charter where it says Jews are welcome.

You won't find it.

We already know that.

But if you're interested in the part of the Charter that says "Hamas confirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but against the Zionists who occupy Palestine", or where it says "Hamas rejects the persecution of any human being or the undermining of his or her rights on nationalist, religious or sectarian grounds", you can go back to that part of the discussion here, or look up the Charter itself.

What is the practical (oh that word again!) difference between a Zionist who is occupying Palestine and a Jew who lives in Israel? Can that Jew stay or will they be killed or forced to flee? The wording is very clever. It makes it sound like Hamas are being magmanious but in reality allows them to do what ever they wish to whomever they dislike.

 

[Tigers!]

In other words, the only answer is the destruction of Israel and the genocide of the Jews?

Or they could just leave and give the country back to the people they stole it from.

So where will all you Yanks go when you return the stolen lands back to the original inhabitants?
Whence would you return Zipr?

Same place you Aussies go.

My ancestry is English, Scottish, German and, oh yes, Australian. I was born here. I have as much right to be where I am as anyone else born here. We can discuss immigrants in another thread.

Just like you yanks.

 

[laughing dog]

In other words, the only answer is the destruction of Israel and the genocide of the Jews?

Or they could just leave and give the country back to the people they stole it from.

So where will all you Yanks go when you return the stolen lands back to the original inhabitants?
Whence would you return Zipr?

Same place you Aussies go.

My ancestry is English, Scottish, German and, oh yes, Australian. I was born here. I have as much right to be where I am as anyone else born here. We can discuss immigrants in another thread.

Just like you yanks.

Is it possible for you to not switch the goal posts? If Australia is returned back to the original inhabitants, whence would you return Tigers!? You expected Ziprhead to answer. Why don’t you live up to your expectations and answer?

 

[DrZoidberg]

In other words, the only answer is the destruction of Israel and the genocide of the Jews?

Or they could just leave and give the country back to the people they stole it from.

Lol. You are clearly marinated in pro-palestinian propaganda

The Middle-East is full of empty Jewish communitys who were forcibly removed after Israel was founded. In all of the countries (except Turkey). These were forced into Israel. There's no talk of that land being returned to the Jews who were forced out.

Not to mention that plenty of Jews in Israel are Mizrahi Jews, ie the Jews that never left.

Also... fun fact, the Palestinians are decended from Jews. They’re genetically indestinct from Mizrahi Jews. Also, according to Jewish law, probably still Jews, technically.

"Giving back the land" in Israel is a simplistic and I dare say childish notion.

 

[Arctish]

*Hamas says the "Zionist entity" must go. Whether or not that means the complete removal of all Jews from Palestine is not clear, but it is obvious they do not want a Jewish State there, and will not tolerate Christian and Muslims Palestinians to be subjugated by one.

I am still looking for the part of the Hamas Charter where it says Jews are welcome.

You won't find it.

We already know that.

But if you're interested in the part of the Charter that says "Hamas confirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but against the Zionists who occupy Palestine", or where it says "Hamas rejects the persecution of any human being or the undermining of his or her rights on nationalist, religious or sectarian grounds", you can go back to that part of the discussion here, or look up the Charter itself.

What is the practical (oh that word again!) difference between a Zionist who is occupying Palestine and a Jew who lives in Israel? Can that Jew stay or will they be killed or forced to flee? The wording is very clever. It makes it sound like Hamas are being magmanious but in reality allows them to do what ever they wish to whomever they dislike.

I agree with you. It's clever wording that avoids making an explicit call for ethnic cleansing. If you remembered anything about that exchange with Loren you would have remembered that I was not saying I trust Hamas or think that anyone else should. I thought I was making that clear when I said:

*** Just to reiterate, I believe Hamas must be defeated on the ground and at the ballots. The Charter has some good passages and concepts but IMO there are way too many terrorists in the organization for it to live up to its own ideals.

At what point can we just move on from basic points of agreement?

We all agree that Hamas is a terrorist organization, that its forces must be defeated militarily and party members removed from power in order to secure peace for the Israelis and the Palestinians, and yet every few pages here comes someone galloping in on a high horse saying "Well, I happen to believe Hamas must be eliminated! We cannot tolerate them having political power or military might because they're terrorists!"

We've been agreeing since the beginning of this thread that the hostages must be rescued and returned, by force if necessary, and that it must happen before the fighting will end, and yet that same high horse came galloping in just last week bearing a rider asking if I agreed that returning the hostages dead or alive would be a good start to a cessation of hostilities.

That poor horse is going to die if y'all don't give it a rest.

Should I make a list of the points on which we all agree?

We all agree that:

1. Hamas is a terrorist organization, that its forces must be defeated militarily and party members removed from power in order to secure peace for the Israelis and the Palestinians.

2. The hostages must be rescued and returned, by force if necessary, and that it must happen before the fighting will end.

Anything else anyone would like to add?

 

[Tigers!]

In other words, the only answer is the destruction of Israel and the genocide of the Jews?

Or they could just leave and give the country back to the people they stole it from.

So where will all you Yanks go when you return the stolen lands back to the original inhabitants?
Whence would you return Zipr?

Same place you Aussies go.

My ancestry is English, Scottish, German and, oh yes, Australian. I was born here. I have as much right to be where I am as anyone else born here. We can discuss immigrants in another thread.

Just like you yanks.

Is it possible for you to not switch the goal posts? If Australia is returned back to the original inhabitants, whence would you return Tigers!? You expected Ziprhead to answer. Why don’t you live up to your expectations and answer?

Ziprhead made the suggestion that theJews/Israelis could leave the ME and return to their ancestral homes. As if it were so easy.
He expects the Jews to do that but would not contenance the same for himself. Just asking him to put his money where his mouth is. I did not make such an outlandish claim so I do not have to justify his assertion.

 

[Tigers!]

*Hamas says the "Zionist entity" must go. Whether or not that means the complete removal of all Jews from Palestine is not clear, but it is obvious they do not want a Jewish State there, and will not tolerate Christian and Muslims Palestinians to be subjugated by one.

I am still looking for the part of the Hamas Charter where it says Jews are welcome.

You won't find it.

We already know that.

But if you're interested in the part of the Charter that says "Hamas confirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but against the Zionists who occupy Palestine", or where it says "Hamas rejects the persecution of any human being or the undermining of his or her rights on nationalist, religious or sectarian grounds", you can go back to that part of the discussion here, or look up the Charter itself.

What is the practical (oh that word again!) difference between a Zionist who is occupying Palestine and a Jew who lives in Israel? Can that Jew stay or will they be killed or forced to flee? The wording is very clever. It makes it sound like Hamas are being magmanious but in reality allows them to do what ever they wish to whomever they dislike.

I agree with you. It's clever wording that avoids making an explicit call for ethnic cleansing. If you remembered anything about that exchange with Loren you would have remembered that I was not saying I trust Hamas or think that anyone else should. I thought I was making that clear when I said:

*** Just to reiterate, I believe Hamas must be defeated on the ground and at the ballots. The Charter has some good passages and concepts but IMO there are way too many terrorists in the organization for it to live up to its own ideals.

At what point can we just move on from basic points of agreement?

We all agree that Hamas is a terrorist organization, that its forces must be defeated militarily and party members removed from power in order to secure peace for the Israelis and the Palestinians, and yet every few pages here comes someone galloping in on a high horse saying "Well, I happen to believe Hamas must be eliminated! We cannot tolerate them having political power or military might because they're terrorists!"

We've been agreeing since the beginning of this thread that the hostages must be rescued and returned, by force if necessary, and that it must happen before the fighting will end, and yet that same high horse came galloping in just last week bearing a rider asking if I agreed that returning the hostages dead or alive would be a good start to a cessation of hostilities.

That poor horse is going to die if y'all don't give it a rest.

Should I make a list of the points on which we all agree?

We all agree that:

1. Hamas is a terrorist organization, that its forces must be defeated militarily and party members removed from power in order to secure peace for the Israelis and the Palestinians.

Full agreement. Lets move on.

2. The hostages must be rescued and returned, by force if necessary, and that it must happen before the fighting will end.

And here we are back to practical matters. Who will provide the force to return the hostages? You have made it abundant clear that you do not want/wish Israel to do so. So who do you suggest? US? UK? Nato? China? Iran? Russia? Go on, tell us who will provide the magical force you say is necessary.

Anything else anyone would like to add?

The opportunity for the Gazans to determine their own future without fear of maleovent or malaicious forces or actors both within Gaza and without.

 

[Arctish]

At what point can we just move on from basic points of agreement?

We all agree that Hamas is a terrorist organization, that its forces must be defeated militarily and party members removed from power in order to secure peace for the Israelis and the Palestinians, and yet every few pages here comes someone galloping in on a high horse saying "Well, I happen to believe Hamas must be eliminated! We cannot tolerate them having political power or military might because they're terrorists!"

We've been agreeing since the beginning of this thread that the hostages must be rescued and returned, by force if necessary, and that it must happen before the fighting will end, and yet that same high horse came galloping in just last week bearing a rider asking if I agreed that returning the hostages dead or alive would be a good start to a cessation of hostilities.

That poor horse is going to die if y'all don't give it a rest.

Should I make a list of the points on which we all agree?

We all agree that:

1. Hamas is a terrorist organization, that its forces must be defeated militarily and party members removed from power in order to secure peace for the Israelis and the Palestinians.

Full agreement. Lets move on.

2. The hostages must be rescued and returned, by force if necessary, and that it must happen before the fighting will end.

And here we are back to practical matters. Who will provide the force to return the hostages? You have made it abundant clear that you do not want/wish Israel to do so.

When did I do that?

Please be specific.

Link to those posts and quote me.

 

[Tigers!]

At what point can we just move on from basic points of agreement?

We all agree that Hamas is a terrorist organization, that its forces must be defeated militarily and party members removed from power in order to secure peace for the Israelis and the Palestinians, and yet every few pages here comes someone galloping in on a high horse saying "Well, I happen to believe Hamas must be eliminated! We cannot tolerate them having political power or military might because they're terrorists!"

We've been agreeing since the beginning of this thread that the hostages must be rescued and returned, by force if necessary, and that it must happen before the fighting will end, and yet that same high horse came galloping in just last week bearing a rider asking if I agreed that returning the hostages dead or alive would be a good start to a cessation of hostilities.

That poor horse is going to die if y'all don't give it a rest.

Should I make a list of the points on which we all agree?

We all agree that:

1. Hamas is a terrorist organization, that its forces must be defeated militarily and party members removed from power in order to secure peace for the Israelis and the Palestinians.

Full agreement. Lets move on.

2. The hostages must be rescued and returned, by force if necessary, and that it must happen before the fighting will end.

And here we are back to practical matters. Who will provide the force to return the hostages? You have made it abundant clear that you do not want/wish Israel to do so.

When did I do that?

Please be specific.

Link to those posts and quote me.

Do you really want me to quote every post where you criticised, complained, whinged etc about everything Israel has done since 8th Oct? Do you want me to repeat your accusations of possible war crimes, disproportionate response, collateral damage, bad faith etc. concerning Israel?

In the meantime you can tell us who will use miltary force against Hamas, apart from Isreal. You keep telling us force is needed.

 

[Arctish]

At what point can we just move on from basic points of agreement?

We all agree that Hamas is a terrorist organization, that its forces must be defeated militarily and party members removed from power in order to secure peace for the Israelis and the Palestinians, and yet every few pages here comes someone galloping in on a high horse saying "Well, I happen to believe Hamas must be eliminated! We cannot tolerate them having political power or military might because they're terrorists!"

We've been agreeing since the beginning of this thread that the hostages must be rescued and returned, by force if necessary, and that it must happen before the fighting will end, and yet that same high horse came galloping in just last week bearing a rider asking if I agreed that returning the hostages dead or alive would be a good start to a cessation of hostilities.

That poor horse is going to die if y'all don't give it a rest.

Should I make a list of the points on which we all agree?

We all agree that:

1. Hamas is a terrorist organization, that its forces must be defeated militarily and party members removed from power in order to secure peace for the Israelis and the Palestinians.

Full agreement. Lets move on.

2. The hostages must be rescued and returned, by force if necessary, and that it must happen before the fighting will end.

And here we are back to practical matters. Who will provide the force to return the hostages? You have made it abundant clear that you do not want/wish Israel to do so.

When did I do that?

Please be specific.

Link to those posts and quote me.

Do you really want me to quote every post where you criticised, complained, whinged etc about everything Israel has done since 8th Oct? Do you want me to repeat your accusations of possible war crimes, disproportionate response, collateral damage, bad faith etc. concerning Israel?

Yes.

I want you to re-read my posts and think about what I was saying, what questions I was responding to, what information I had that I was sharing, what was in the reports I was quoting.

I want you to notice that I specifically said I do not believe that all Israel ever does is commit war crimes. I want you to see that I specifically said Israel has conducted military operations in the past that did not include things like green-lighting strikes with likely civilian casualties of up to 100 people if the intended target was considered "high ranking" or up to 20 innocents if they were suspected low level Hamas members, and that I believed it was in Israel's best interests to go back to the more restrained ROE the IDF used in years past.

I want you to see that when I criticized specific individuals, I backed up my position with facts about their personal histories that supported my conclusions about their character.

I want you to see past the strawman arguments that you and others keep making, and read what I actually wrote.

And I want you to quote me when you are accusing me of having said something.

In the meantime you can tell us who will use miltary force against Hamas, apart from Isreal. You keep telling us force is needed.

Where did you get the idea I was suggesting some other army should invade Gaza and fight Hamas while the IDF sits this one out? Honestly, where the fuck did you get that?

Israel must act to protect its citizens. That's why it exists.

I think what I said immediately after ^that^ is where our conversation keeps breaking down. I think you are making an endless Excluded Middle fallacy, where anything less than full throated support for Israel no matter how it conducts its campaign in Gaza is characterized as being anti-Israel, anti-Semitic, pro-terrorist, and against trying to rescue hostages unless Hamas is using them as human shields in which case you're supposed to shoot babies or something.

I want you to quote me so I can see where you got the idea that I do not want/wish Israel to rescue the hostages.

I do not disapprove of Israel striking at military targets as a response to the October 2023 attack or to prevent an attack in the future. I disapprove of war crimes and crimes against humanity. "Defeated on the ground" means defeated in combat, street by street if necessary, through a successful military campaign or police action. It means dismantling or destroying the resources Hamas needs to carry on the fight, and capturing or killing the militants who are resisting that campaign. I accept the necessity of shooting to kill when someone is shooting at you, or threatening your family or members of your community. I accept the use of lethal force, including targeted assassination, as justified in such circumstances. I do not believe terrorism is ever an acceptable course of action. I reject the needless slaughter of civilians. I do not accept murdering people trying to surrender. I do not accept murdering people who have already surrendered or were taken prisoner. I do not accept blowing up houses full of civilians, most of them children, in order to kill one person suspected of being a low level foot soldier. I condemn attacking people for religious, tribal, or vengeance driven hate. I utterly reject rape, torture, starvation, or imprisoning people without charge, especially if the apparent reason is racial and religious discrimination. One body found with their hands tied behind their backs and a bullet hole in their head is one too many. That goes for Palestinians in Gaza, Jews in Poland, Armenians in Turkey, medical students in Mexico, suspected drug dealers in the Philippines, or anyone else, anywhere.

 

[ZiprHead]

In other words, the only answer is the destruction of Israel and the genocide of the Jews?

Or they could just leave and give the country back to the people they stole it from.

Where will the Jews go once they have left the ME? Can they stay at your place?

They should go back where they came from. MAGA!

You have to admit that no one asked the Palestinians already living there if it was okay to give their country to foreigners.

The followers of Mohammed did not ask in the 7th C. AD if it was ok for them to invade the area between the river and the sea.
It is ahuge problem - inavding others terrority and it has been going on since time immemorial

And resistance to those invasions has been going on just as long.

You think it's a joke that Trump wants to take over Canada, Greenland, etc. You know it's absurd. But that was exactly what was done to the Palestinians that were already living there, including Jews and Christians.

And in the US and in Aust. etc.

I don't know about aborigine resistance in Australia but native Americans fought wars against their invaders all over the country.

 

[laughing dog]

In other words, the only answer is the destruction of Israel and the genocide of the Jews?

Or they could just leave and give the country back to the people they stole it from.

So where will all you Yanks go when you return the stolen lands back to the original inhabitants?
Whence would you return Zipr?

Same place you Aussies go.

My ancestry is English, Scottish, German and, oh yes, Australian. I was born here. I have as much right to be where I am as anyone else born here. We can discuss immigrants in another thread.

Just like you yanks.

Is it possible for you to not switch the goal posts? If Australia is returned back to the original inhabitants, whence would you return Tigers!? You expected Ziprhead to answer. Why don’t you live up to your expectations and answer?

Ziprhead made the suggestion that theJews/Israelis could leave the ME and return to their ancestral homes. As if it were so easy.
He expects the Jews to do that but would not contenance the same for himself. Just asking him to put his money where his mouth is. I did not make such an outlandish claim so I do not have to justify his assertion.

An evasion is an actual response to a question, so that’s an improvement. Even if it based on a straw man.

 

[ZiprHead]

Ziprhead made the suggestion that theJews/Israelis could leave the ME and return to their ancestral homes. As if it were so easy.

I never said anything about where they should go.

He expects the Jews to do that but would not contenance the same for himself. Just asking him to put his money where his mouth is. I did not make such an outlandish claim so I do not have to justify his assertion.

First of all, I don't expect anything from Isrealis except common decency when dealing with civilians. Loren said there was no choice for the Israelis except war. I provided another choice to counter Loren's ill thought out statement.

And I'm married to a native American. I'm sure they will give me a pass.

 

[DrZoidberg]

In other words, the only answer is the destruction of Israel and the genocide of the Jews?

Or they could just leave and give the country back to the people they stole it from.

Where will the Jews go once they have left the ME? Can they stay at your place?

They should go back where they came from. MAGA!

You have to admit that no one asked the Palestinians already living there if it was okay to give their country to foreigners.

The followers of Mohammed did not ask in the 7th C. AD if it was ok for them to invade the area between the river and the sea.
It is ahuge problem - inavding others terrority and it has been going on since time immemorial

And resistance to those invasions has been going on just as long.

The Jews invaded their own country. Its a dumb argument.

You think it's a joke that Trump wants to take over Canada, Greenland, etc. You know it's absurd. But that was exactly what was done to the Palestinians that were already living there, including Jews and Christians.

And in the US and in Aust. etc.

I don't know about aborigine resistance in Australia but native Americans fought wars against their invaders all over the country.

The aboriginals who resisted were exterminated. It was one of the worst genocides ever. Tasmanian aboriginals went extinct. That's why we don't hear much about it. Its like the holocaust of gypsies in Europe by the Nazis. They were very thorough. So there weren't enough survivors to talk about it.

 

[ZiprHead]

The aboriginals who resisted were exterminated. It was one of the worst genocides ever. Tasmanian aboriginals went extinct. That's why we don't hear much about it. Its like the holocaust of gypsies in Europe by the Nazis. They were very thorough. So there weren't enough survivors to talk about it.

Thanks for that info. I did not know that.