Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[TV and credit cards]

Two Israeli embassy staffers shot dead in downtown Washington, lone suspect held
But when a couple Israelis get gunned down the world's suppose to mourn. Because their lives have so much more value than thousands of Palestinian children.

What a bigoted interpretation!
How about "Muslim terrorists violence spreads to US"?

Reports make it look more like another tragic incident of US gun violence brought about by mental illness, but who knows at this point.
Tom

Bigoted! Not at all. I'm wondering, as I often do with all things Israel, why the outsized coverage? Not only does it get the headline on this morning's news, it also gets three subheadings along with it. Hell's bells, school shootings may not even get such top billing depending on the news day and body count. Haven't you noticed this?
And just four hours later out comes the not unexpected follow on story: "Israelis feel besieged by global antisemitism after Washington attacks". Like clockwork. I might be wrong but it's not bigoted. I'm just trying my best to take in information from all sides.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

This warms my heart. I still have hope there's enough Palestinians who want peace to kick Hamas out

This is also pretty major. Hamas does not tolerate Palestinian dissent. There's no free speech in Gaza. They have pretty brutal internal repression.

You don't say. It is odd how you speak out of both sides of your mouth, condemned the Gazans for not overtaking Hamas... while at the same time admitting Hamas rule brutally.

 

[pood]

You appear to be justifying ineffective methods of getting the hostages back to get the hostages back. That seems quite ridiculous.

The Palestinians in Gaza are citizens of a country that declared war on Israel and uses it's own population as human shields.

I wonder why Jimmy didn't respond to this, the main point of Zoid's post?
Probably because it's hard to strawman such an obvious reality.
Tom

That is easy to respond to.

Gaza is not a country and it did not declare war on anyone. A small band of terrorists over whom the Palestinian people have no control committed atrocities and innocent people are being collectively punished for that, which is a war crime.

 

[pood]

So it's okay the Gazans are slaughtered?

What does that have to do with ridiculing a group of people for being useful idiots for a terrorist organization that'd just as soon kill them as look at them?

As to your question: of course not! But Gaza started this war, and they have it in their power to end it.
Hamas (which is the de facto government of Gaza) and allied terror groups (Islamic Jihad, Popular Resistance Committees and such) should have capitulated unconditionally a year ago. Then much suffering would have been spared the Gazan people.

Or at any point shift tactic and chose to live in peace with the Israelis. Israel is an inclusive modern western country. All the Muslims need to do is accept that they're not the master race anymore. They'll need to learn to live with being the equals of Jews. That is the entire problem in this conflict.

If you ignore the Israeli ethnic cleansing clique, you have a point.

That's the most antisemitic thing said in this thread

I have been warned about not calling it out in this thread and being banned. But I have a problem with antisemitism and racism. Unless the mods decide to stop protecting antisemities and racists you are going to have to ban me.

I'm not going to stop calling it out.

You have a problem with facts. There are Israelis , including those in the current gov’t, who advocate for the ethnic cleansing of Arabs from the region. Recognizing reality is a sign of rationality and sanity, not antisemitism.

You’ve made it abundantly clear you have mo problem flinging baseless accusations of antisemitism.

Any population has extremists. That's hardly why you brought it up.

No. I brought up to show the bias in your bigoted claim of "All the Muslims need to do is accept that they're not the master race anymore. "

What's bigoted about that? Yes, Muslims (and everybody else who wants to live in peace with their neighours) have to accept that they're not the master race. It's pretty fundamental to our interconnected post WW2 world. Muslims are struggling to join the modern world. A lot of them are trying. But Muslim culture still has a strong cultural current of imperialistic world domination (as was so common in the olden days). If this is news to you then you really need to read more.

I think you need to read more. Try this.

 

[pood]

Oh, and let’s find out what’s behind war criminal Netanyahu naming the genocide in Gaza Operation Gideon’s Chariots, shall we?

Thank you, Slavoj! Always been a big fan.

 

[TomC]

Please stop slurring people as anti-Semitic for opposing Israeli genocide against Gazans. No one here hates Jews. This latest slur will be reported.

Please stop slurring Israelis by referring to their self defense as genocide.

I also wish that Zoid would stop using that archaic term. But I think that the reason people get so upset about it is that it's painfully close to dead on accurate.
Tom

 

[pood]

You appear to be justifying ineffective methods of getting the hostages back to get the hostages back. That seems quite ridiculous.

The Palestinians in Gaza are citizens of a country that declared war on Israel and uses it's own population as human shields.

I wonder why Jimmy didn't respond to this, the main point of Zoid's post?
Probably because it's hard to strawman such an obvious reality.
Tom

Now that I have answered your question to Jimmy, perhaps you will answer mine to you.

 

[pood]

Please stop slurring people as anti-Semitic for opposing Israeli genocide against Gazans. No one here hates Jews. This latest slur will be reported.

Please stop slurring Israelis by referring to their self defense as genocide.

I won’t stop telling the truth. Killing tens of thousands. of people, starving them, driving them from their homes, are war crimes —all under the wonderful banner Operation Gideon’s Chariots. Go follow the link I posted to what that means.

 

[laughing dog]

You appear to be justifying ineffective methods of getting the hostages back to get the hostages back. That seems quite ridiculous.

The Palestinians in Gaza are citizens of a country that declared war on Israel and uses it's own population as human shields.

I wonder why Jimmy didn't respond to this, the main point of Zoid's post?
Probably because it's hard to strawman such an obvious reality.
Tom

Probably because DrZ’s response, like yours, does not address the salient point that no matter how much the destruction and damage on those “human shields” satisfies the urges for justice, it hasn’t been effective in the stated aim in getting hostages returned.

The US just got its hostage released without killing anyone. How’d that happen?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You appear to be justifying ineffective methods of getting the hostages back to get the hostages back. That seems quite ridiculous.

The Palestinians in Gaza are citizens of a country that declared war on Israel and uses it's own population as human shields.

I wonder why Jimmy didn't respond to this, the main point of Zoid's post?

Because it wasn't relevant. If the intent of these actions is to get the hostages released, these actions are proving to be poorly ineffective.

You folks are using the worst logic. If Hamas is using the Gazans as human shields, why would collaterally killing more Gazans change Hamas tactics on hostages and of using Gazans as human shields? You've already established you think Hamas doesn't care about the Gazans.

 

[TomC]

Gaza is not a country and it did not declare war on anyone. A small band of terrorists over whom the Palestinian people have no control committed atrocities and innocent people are being collectively punished for that, which is a war crime.

Change "country" to "territory" then the rest of your response is crap.
The Gazans Who Matter invested heavily in military strike capabilities. They elected Hamas 20 years ago and have shown little signs of dissatisfaction since. They are being collectively used as human shields to protect military strike capabilities of Gaza.

To me, that is the biggest war crime here. Using the Gazans Who Don't Matter as human shields to protect the military strike capabilities of the GWM.
Tom

 

[pood]

Gaza is not a country and it did not declare war on anyone. A small band of terrorists over whom the Palestinian people have no control committed atrocities and innocent people are being collectively punished for that, which is a war crime.

Change "country" to "territory" then the rest of your response is crap.
The Gazans Who Matter invested heavily in military strike capabilities. They elected Hamas 20 years ago and have shown little signs of dissatisfaction since. They are being collectively used as human shields to protect military strike capabilities of Gaza.

To me, that is the biggest war crime here. Using the Gazans Who Don't Matter as human shields to protect the military strike capabilities of the GWM.
Tom

I wonder if you know that Israel, even under Netanyahu, has funded Hamas? Anyway, about my question to you …

 

[pood]

The real meaning of “from the river to the sea,” and the obscenity of our political discourse — again, courtesy of Slavoj Zizek.

 

[TomC]

I wonder if you know that Israel, even under Netanyahu, has funded Hamas? Anyway, about my question to you …

I did know about that. I'm not sure what it means. I was under the impression that it was Netanyahu's effort to divide the Palestinians and their leadership. I'm sure the goal wasn't to support the Gazan military strike capabilities. And frankly, Hamas won a 4 year term, and that was 20 years ago.

But suppose Netanyahu's goal was to get Hamas to build a huge military, embed it in the civilian infrastructure, then launch an attack that gave him the pretext for the ethnic cleansing of Gaza? It's working.

Is this the question:

Or did you think that after Israel levels most of Gaze and starves and kills most of their population, the remaining Gazans, if any, will thank Israel as benefactors?

I presume it is. Doesn't look much like a question, more like a vague accusation with a question mark at the end.
Honestly, I don't think he cares about that. I don't think he cares about Hamas, or the return of the kidnapped hostages (except maybe as talking points). I think his goal is the eradication of the Gazan military strike capabilities. Gazan policies have made that impossible without huge destruction and thousands of casualties. I think he's given up on making peace with the Muslim neighbors and is focused on degrading their abilities to murder Israelis.
Tom

 

[pood]

Gaza is not a country and it did not declare war on anyone. A small band of terrorists over whom the Palestinian people have no control committed atrocities and innocent people are being collectively punished for that, which is a war crime.

Change "country" to "territory" then the rest of your response is crap.

And your claim is still crap, even if you change “country” to “territory.”

Hamas did not “declare war,” they committed terrorist atrocities. The Gazan people did not do that — they are victims, not perpetrators.

 

[TomC]

Hamas did not “declare war,” they committed terrorist atrocities. The Gazan people did not do that — they are victims, not perpetrators.

Gazans fired about 10,000 missiles at a neighboring country. They killed and kidnapped a bunch more Israelis. They continue to hold the hostages and launch missiles.
I recognize that not every Gazan had any say in the buildup or the attacks. I was out in the streets opposing the US invasion of Iraq, that doesn't change the reality "America invaded Iraq"!
Tom

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I recognize that not every Gazan had any say in the buildup or the attacks. I was out in the streets opposing the US invasion of Iraq, that doesn't change the reality "America invaded Iraq"!

So you'd be okay with Iraqi soldiers bombing US hospitals, killing US ambulance drivers, and starving US children because all Americans did it.

 

[TomC]

I recognize that not every Gazan had any say in the buildup or the attacks. I was out in the streets opposing the US invasion of Iraq, that doesn't change the reality "America invaded Iraq"!

So you'd be okay with Iraqi soldiers bombing US hospitals, killing US ambulance drivers, and starving US children because all Americans did it.

Back in the invasion, I wouldn't blame them if they had bombed America. But the fact remains, the American leadership didn't use civilians as human shields. So no, I think your disgusting strawman arguments are stupid.
Tom

 

[NoHolyCows]

Gazans fired about 10,000 missiles at a neighboring country. They killed and kidnapped a bunch more Israelis. They continue to hold the hostages and launch missiles.
I recognize that not every Gazan had any say in the buildup or the attacks. I was out in the streets opposing the US invasion of Iraq, that doesn't change the reality "America invaded Iraq"!

“Gazans fired missiles.”

Yes—and if that’s where your moral analysis starts and stops, you’re not thinking, you’re excusing. Hamas committed war crimes on Oct 7. But that doesn’t justify turning Gaza into a graveyard. Over 2 million people—half of them children—are being punished for the actions of militants they can’t control and often didn’t vote for.

You compare it to “America invaded Iraq”—as if that explains away collective punishment. But when Bush invaded Iraq, no one bombed your house. No one cut off your food, water, and fuel. You weren’t starved, displaced, or crushed under rubble because your government committed crimes.

Gaza is a walled-in, blockaded prison. People can’t flee. They can’t vote. They can’t get food or medical supplies without permission from the state bombing them. And now, after thousands of bombs, mass starvation, and deliberate targeting of civilians, legal experts around the world are calling it what it looks like: genocide.

You don’t get to condemn terrorism while justifying state terror on a larger scale. If you really opposed Iraq, prove it wasn’t just performative. Because Gaza is Iraq—but worse, live-streamed, and happening right now.

NHC

 

[TomC]

Because Gaza is Iraq—but worse, live-streamed, and happening right now.

I'll try to get back to the rest of your post, but this is where you are profoundly wrong and immoral.
Israel was attacked by Gazans and the attack is ongoing. Israel is defending itself.

That's utterly unlike the situation in Iraq in 2003. The USA were the aggressors, without question. We're responsible for the death and destruction because we and our policies caused them. The GWM are the aggressors in this situation. There's nothing like moral parity between an aggressor and a defender.

And the biggest war crime in this situation is Hamas, and their supporters both Gazan and international, using the rest of the Gazans to protect their military strike capabilities.
Tom