Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[pood]

I never said they weren’t. What’s your usual stupid point here?

You pretend that Hamas is somehow apart from Gaza, rather than being an integral part of Gazan society.
You also pretend that only Hamas took part in the 10/7 atrocities.

I “pretend” nothing of the sort. Learn to read for residual comprehension.

 

[ZiprHead]

Whether or not the Gazan leadership is native Gazans isn't the point. Destroying the attacks means fighting in Gaza.

Pood can't even claim that the Hamas leadership is not "native Gazan".
 Ismail Hanniyeh - born in the Al Shati camp, Egyptian occupied Gaza Strip
 Yahya Sinwar - born in Khan Yunis, Egyptian occupied Gaza Strip
 Mohammed Deif - born in the Khan Yunis camp, Egyptian occupied Gaza Strip
 Mohammed Sinwar - born in the Khan Yunis camp, Israeli occupied Gaza Strip

Whom am I missing?

Huh??? That's the same Gaza Israel is in the process of destroying right now.

 

[DrZoidberg]

So it's okay the Gazans are slaughtered?

What does that have to do with ridiculing a group of people for being useful idiots for a terrorist organization that'd just as soon kill them as look at them?

As to your question: of course not! But Gaza started this war, and they have it in their power to end it.
Hamas (which is the de facto government of Gaza) and allied terror groups (Islamic Jihad, Popular Resistance Committees and such) should have capitulated unconditionally a year ago. Then much suffering would have been spared the Gazan people.

Or at any point shift tactic and chose to live in peace with the Israelis. Israel is an inclusive modern western country. All the Muslims need to do is accept that they're not the master race anymore. They'll need to learn to live with being the equals of Jews. That is the entire problem in this conflict.

If you ignore the Israeli ethnic cleansing clique, you have a point.

That's the most antisemitic thing said in this thread

I have been warned about not calling it out in this thread and being banned. But I have a problem with antisemitism and racism. Unless the mods decide to stop protecting antisemities and racists you are going to have to ban me.

I'm not going to stop calling it out.

You have a problem with facts. There are Israelis , including those in the current gov’t, who advocate for the ethnic cleansing of Arabs from the region. Recognizing reality is a sign of rationality and sanity, not antisemitism.

You’ve made it abundantly clear you have mo problem flinging baseless accusations of antisemitism.

Any population has extremists. That's hardly why you brought it up.

No. I brought up to show the bias in your bigoted claim of "All the Muslims need to do is accept that they're not the master race anymore. "

What's bigoted about that?

Everything. Muslims do not think they are masters of the world, and you are stereotyping one billion people as univocal proponents of something they do not even advocate. It’s contemptible.

Yes, Muslims (and everybody else who wants to live in peace with their neighours) have to accept that they're not the master race.

Yes. Let’s start with the Anglo-Saxon West.

It's pretty fundamental to our interconnected post WW2 world. Muslims are struggling to join the modern world.

Muslims are struggling against xenophobic Western nativist imperialism and bigotry.

A lot of them are trying. But Muslim culture still has a strong cultural current of imperialistic world domination (as was so common in the olden days). If this is news to you then you really need to read more.

The thing you ascribed to Muslims is precisely what is the case with xenophobic Western nativist imperialism and bigotry. Let’s take the good old US of A, whose history includes slavery, Jim Crow, genocide against native Americans, brutal exploitation of Chinese labor, an imperialistic foreign policy beginning in the late 19th century, endless wars sinice World War II, military bases all over the world, and the current support for Israeli genocide against the Gazans you claim are trying to dominate the world when they are just trying to avoid being exterminated while trying to find a scrap of food every now and then and keep their children from starving in the face of xenophobic Western nativist imperialism with Israel as the current proxy for that.

You live in the past. Your interpretation of western ac

I do agree - every population has its extremists.

By bringing it up in this conflict you are impliying that they have any say in IDF actions. I think that is antisemitic

Extremist Israeli politicians saying extreme stuff on camera doesn't mean that is Israeli policy

Of course not. But when Israeli policy is consistent with some of their sayings, then perhaps it is Israeli policy. And if you think that those hard right Israeli racists agreed and stayed on in a government in order to have no influence on policy, well, you are even less knowledgable than you have already proven.

You've already shown you are clueless by calling Israels actions genocide. So just stop.

Look in a mirror.

Those slanders supplement your bigoted anti-Arab tirades to give a more rounded picture of your position.

Lol. So your response to being called out for your racism is to call me a racist. Such a weak rebutle.

It is not a rebuttal - it is an observation which is consistent with the contents of your posts (see below for your most recent bigoted comment).

Good people can support evil things if they allow themselves to be manipulated.

Iron is truly lost on you,

hat's whats happening in the western press right now. So you are not alone

I'm not bigoted and I'm not anti Arab. I think the problem is what modern Islam has evolved to. Which makes normal Arabs lean towards extremism

The world's first openly gay Imam quickly got shot in the head. That's the kind of people we are dealing with

As pood pointed out "That's the kind of people we are dealing with" is consistent with bigotry.

You're not making any sense.

I think you're too blinded by your hatred of Jews

Please stop slurring people as anti-Semitic for opposing Israeli genocide against Gazans. No one here hates Jews. This latest slur will be reported.

Two Israeli embassy staffers shot dead in downtown Washington, lone suspect held
But when a couple Israelis get gunned down the world's suppose to mourn. Because their lives have so much more value than thousands of Palestinian children.

There's a difference. These are random Jews around the world.

The Palestinians in Gaza are citizens of a country that declared war on Israel and uses it's own population as human shields.

Why wouldn’t take whatever extreme measure they need to take to get the hostages back? It's on the Gazan government to take responsibility for the safety of the Palestinian people. Do you think they’re doing that by keeping the hostages?

You appear to be justifying ineffective methods of getting the hostages back to get the hostages back. That seems quite ridiculous.

A: Look, we support these draconian methods because we want to get the hostages back.
B: These methods have been put in place for months and we haven't gotten an additional hostage released. There methods don't appear to be working.
A: You are being seduced by Hamas and the media, you anti-Semite!

I don't understand why the inhabitants of Gaza can't be held responsible for the actions of their leaders?

Why are you giving them a free pass?

The Palestinians have had 70 years to stop trying to murder Jews at every opportunity. Don't you think Gazan's have any responsibility to stop their leaders from behaving this way? Its been ongoing for decades

I think not holding Arabs responsible for their actions is racism. Its treating them like children who doesn’t know better

 

[NoHolyCows]

don't understand why the inhabitants of Gaza can't be held responsible for the actions of their leaders?

Why are you giving them a free pass?

The Palestinians have had 70 years to stop trying to murder Jews at every opportunity. Don't you think Gazan's have any responsibility to stop their leaders from behaving this way? Its been ongoing for decades

I think not holding Arabs responsible for their actions is racism. Its treating them like children who doesn’t know better

You’re not arguing for accountability. You’re arguing for collective punishment—the idea that millions of people, half of them children, deserve to suffer or die because of the actions of a political group they didn’t vote for, can’t control, and are often victimized by themselves.

Let’s start with the obvious: holding civilians responsible for the actions of armed factions is a war crime. That’s not an opinion—it’s international law, codified in the Fourth Geneva Convention. You don’t get to bomb hospitals or starve children and call it justice just because you’re angry at their leaders.

You ask, “Why can’t Gazans be held responsible?” Here’s why: Gaza is not a democracy. The last election was in 2006. Over half the population wasn’t even born then. People in Gaza don’t have the right to protest or remove their government—they’re under an authoritarian regime and an external blockade. They’re trapped between Hamas and the Israeli military, and you’re blaming them for being unable to fix either.

But let’s test your logic: Did you bomb Tel Aviv when Netanyahu tried to dismantle Israel’s judiciary? Did you starve Texans because they voted for Trump? Did you level U.S. cities over the Iraq invasion, or hold all Israelis responsible for Sabra and Shatila? Of course not. Because when it’s your side, you believe in nuance. When it’s Arabs, suddenly they’re a monolith.

And here’s where your final point reveals itself: you accuse others of racism, but what you’re actually doing is racializing collective guilt. You’re not asking for accountability—you’re suggesting Palestinians are inherently violent, undeserving of rights, and incapable of moral agency unless they rise up against an armed government in a blockaded warzone.

That’s not justice. That’s supremacist logic—repackaged as moral outrage.

If you truly believed in responsibility, you’d start by holding your own side accountable for the bombs, the siege, the deaths, and the system that made Gaza unlivable in the first place. But you don’t. Because your moral concern isn’t universal—it’s conditional on who you think deserves to be human.

NHC

 

[DrZoidberg]

This warms my heart. I still have hope there's enough Palestinians who want peace to kick Hamas out

This is also pretty major. Hamas does not tolerate Palestinian dissent. There's no free speech in Gaza. They have pretty brutal internal repression.

You don't say. It is odd how you speak out of both sides of your mouth, condemned the Gazans for not overtaking Hamas... while at the same time admitting Hamas rule brutally.

Is it perhaps because you've squeezed me into an ideological box that I don't fit?

I think, if you would make an effort to understand what I was saying, you'd be less confused.

My main concern right now is for the safety of the Palestinian people. But just like with alcoholism, you can't help someone who won't help themselves.

Hamas gaining power in Gaza is completely analogous to Hitler gaining power in Germany. Hitler exploited pre-existing nationalistic and extremist narratives. The Germans who took part in strengthening these extremist narratives (ie the Vølkish movement) are all guilty of installing Hitler to power. Even though, I'm sure, most of them did it for harmless and noble reasons.

Islam wasn't always like this. This insane latest version of Islam (Islamofascism) is a very new kind of Islam (from Sayyid Qutb). If Islam can evolve towards extremism, it sure as hell can evolve away from it. Fun fact, Islam has always, internally, worked hard to supress Islamic extremism. It's always been a latent force in Islam. For whatever reason, Islamic society, the last century has eased up on this break. I have my theories as to why. But they don't really matter. What matters is that Islam, internally, figures out a way to tamp down on their extremist tendencies.

The Palestinian narrative is now tribal. It's a black and white dichotomy. Palestinian good. Jews bad. That's an extremely unhelpful narrative. And this narrative goes all the way back to the British Palestinian Mandate 1920 (influenced by the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood). And hasn't changed since. Even though the world has changed around Palestine. And which is why the Palestinians will get behind whatever (they perceive) is the most powerful force oposing Israel. No matter how fucked that forces politics are. Like it or not, Hamas is popular in Gaza. The Palestinians have a huge expat community. There's virtually zero voices against Hamas. Their community support Hamas even when they acknowldge Hamas are terrible. They're not stupid. It's obvious to anyone. They're still loyal to Hamas. And send loads of money to them.

 

[DrZoidberg]

don't understand why the inhabitants of Gaza can't be held responsible for the actions of their leaders?

Why are you giving them a free pass?

The Palestinians have had 70 years to stop trying to murder Jews at every opportunity. Don't you think Gazan's have any responsibility to stop their leaders from behaving this way? Its been ongoing for decades

I think not holding Arabs responsible for their actions is racism. Its treating them like children who doesn’t know better

You’re not arguing for accountability. You’re arguing for collective punishment—the idea that millions of people, half of them children, deserve to suffer or die because of the actions of a political group they didn’t vote for, can’t control, and are often victimized by themselves.

That's a fair point. But it can be argued that the Israelis have been pushed into a corner by half a century of non-stop Palestinian agression. Hamas is just the latest iteration of this kind of behaviour. And fine, most Palestinians are too young to be able to take responsiblity for the actions of PLO. But it just doesn't fucking end. The Palestinians just keep going.

And whose fault is it that Palestinians can't hold elections? Islam doesn't seem to be conducive to democracy. But whose fault is that? Hardly the Israelis. So why hold them responsible?

Let’s start with the obvious: holding civilians responsible for the actions of armed factions is a war crime. That’s not an opinion—it’s international law, codified in the Fourth Geneva Convention. You don’t get to bomb hospitals or starve children and call it justice just because you’re angry at their leaders.

Hamas has built their military bases on top of hospitals. I think that gives Israel a free pass to bomb hospitals. Yes, really. Hamas knew the obvious outcome of making this choice.

On the starving children. Yes, that's terrible. Israel shouldn't. But they also need to break Hamas. If starving them out is the only way, then it's the only way. Which makes me sad. But Hamas is such an extreme and vile organisation, they just have to go.

You ask, “Why can’t Gazans be held responsible?” Here’s why: Gaza is not a democracy. The last election was in 2006. Over half the population wasn’t even born then. People in Gaza don’t have the right to protest or remove their government—they’re under an authoritarian regime and an external blockade. They’re trapped between Hamas and the Israeli military, and you’re blaming them for being unable to fix either.

There's been almost zero popular Palestinian movement against Hamas. Palestinians have a huge politically active expat community. There's no voices I've ever seen speaking up against Hamas. It's all against Israel. Sure, Gaza is not a democracy. And authoritarian. But that doesn't give a free pass to Palestinians to support them.

But let’s test your logic: Did you bomb Tel Aviv when Netanyahu tried to dismantle Israel’s judiciary? Did you starve Texans because they voted for Trump? Did you level U.S. cities over the Iraq invasion, or hold all Israelis responsible for Sabra and Shatila? Of course not. Because when it’s your side, you believe in nuance. When it’s Arabs, suddenly they’re a monolith.

You have a point. I don't disagree. The difference lies in how extreme the 7/10 attacks were. We (as in humanity) can't allow an organisation like that stay in power. That would be unacceptable. That's the main lesson we learned from WW2. Yes, it sucks for the starving children of Gaza. But war is never pretty

And here’s where your final point reveals itself: you accuse others of racism, but what you’re actually doing is racializing collective guilt. You’re not asking for accountability—you’re suggesting Palestinians are inherently violent, undeserving of rights, and incapable of moral agency unless they rise up against an armed government in a blockaded warzone.

That’s not justice. That’s supremacist logic—repackaged as moral outrage.

If you truly believed in responsibility, you’d start by holding your own side accountable for the bombs, the siege, the deaths, and the system that made Gaza unlivable in the first place. But you don’t. Because your moral concern isn’t universal—it’s conditional on who you think deserves to be human.

NHC

And there you lost me. I don't think that follows at all. Yes, I accuse those who refuse to assign guilt to the Palestinians as racists.

After WW2 we blamed it all on Hitler. It's was a convenient lie. The blame for Germany's war crimes was shared by millions of Germans. We just decided to forgive and move on, for the sake of world peace. It's the same deal the Gaza. They share a lot of the guilt for Hamas' actions. But first, Hamas needs to go.

 

[pood]

Islam doesn't seem to be conducive to democracy.

Indonesia. Pakistan.

Stop embarrassing yourself.

 

[pood]

For whatever reason, Islamic society, the last century has eased up on this break. I have my theories as to why. But they don't really matter. What matters is that Islam, internally, figures out a way to tamp down on their extremist tendencies.

Indonesia. Pakistan.

I have already outlined the reasons for the problems in the Middle East. It has nothing to do with Islam or “Islamofacism.” Its roots are in Western imperialism.

 

[ZiprHead]

You’re not arguing for accountability. You’re arguing for collective punishment—the idea that millions of people, half of them children, deserve to suffer or die because of the actions of a political group they didn’t vote for, can’t control, and are often victimized by themselves.

That's a fair point. But it can be argued that the Israelis have been pushed into a corner by half a century of non-stop Palestinian agression. Hamas is just the latest iteration of this kind of behaviour. And fine, most Palestinians are too young to be able to take responsiblity for the actions of PLO. But it just doesn't fucking end. The Palestinians just keep going.

Cool story, bro.

The Israelis moved in and turned the west into an open air prison for the Palestinians totally under the outside control of Israel. Did similar in the east. To declare the aggression is from only one side is wilful blindness.

 

[pood]

Hey, guys, this GOP Florida congresstwat wants to nuke Gaza!

Y’all OK with that, TomC and DrZoidberg? If not, why not? It is the logical endpoint of your own twisted logic.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

This warms my heart. I still have hope there's enough Palestinians who want peace to kick Hamas out

This is also pretty major. Hamas does not tolerate Palestinian dissent. There's no free speech in Gaza. They have pretty brutal internal repression.

You don't say. It is odd how you speak out of both sides of your mouth, condemned the Gazans for not overtaking Hamas... while at the same time admitting Hamas rule brutally.

*snip*

That was a lot of text to pretty much agree with what I said you are saying... all the while denying that you say it. Want to stop Hamas, stop the money. Iran is the primary target in stopping Hamas. Bombs won't do it.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Hey, guys, this GOP Florida congresstwat wants to nuke Gaza!

Y’all OK with that, TomC and DrZoidberg? If not, why not? It is the logical endpoint of your own twisted logic.

His words could have multiple meanings. His intent was to say we want unconditional surrender, not necessarily nuke Gaza, which obviously would be bad for EVERYONE in the region.

The problem is Hamas while a de facto governor of Gaza, aren't a formal government, so the rules don't apply in the same usual way. This is what makes this conflict so hard. People want to destroy Hamas, when we should be starving Hamas of money.

 

[laughing dog]

To declare the aggression is from only one side is wilful blindness.

And the aggression -to some degree - from all corners has been ongoing for nearly a century.

IMO, at this point, there is too much distrust and hate among significant segments in all sides to achieve peace. I think this is going to stagger on for decades more until a monumental tragedy occurs.

 

[pood]

To declare the aggression is from only one side is wilful blindness.

And the aggression -to some degree - from all corners has been ongoing for nearly a century.

IMO, at this point, there is too much distrust and hate among significant segments in all sides to achieve peace. I think this is going to stagger on for decades more until a monumental tragedy occurs.

A monumental tragedy is already occurring, genocide in real time before our eyes.

The biggest tragedy of all waits in the wings.

 

[TomC]

A monumental tragedy is already occurring, genocide in real time before our eyes.

And the disaster will continue as long as the culprits, Gazan leadership and their supporters, keep managing to shift the blame onto Israeli defense.
Tom

 

[NoHolyCows]

That's a fair point. But it can be argued that the Israelis have been pushed into a corner by half a century of non-stop Palestinian agression. Hamas is just the latest iteration of this kind of behaviour. And fine, most Palestinians are too young to be able to take responsiblity for the actions of PLO. But it just doesn't fucking end. The Palestinians just keep going.

And whose fault is it that Palestinians can't hold elections? Islam doesn't seem to be conducive to democracy. But whose fault is that? Hardly the Israelis. So why hold them responsible?

You’re saying “it just doesn’t end”—but what you’re describing as endless Palestinian aggression is actually an ongoing cycle of displacement, occupation, and resistance, not some ahistorical pathology. You’re treating Palestinian violence as an inexplicable constant, while Israeli violence is framed as reluctant, forced, justified. That’s not analysis. That’s narrative control.

Yes, Palestinians have a history of armed struggle. But they also have a long, consistent history of nonviolent resistance, political diplomacy, and attempts at statehood—all of which were met with assassinations, bombings, land seizures, and broken agreements. You mention the PLO—well, when the PLO recognized Israel and renounced terrorism in the 1990s, what followed? Oslo. And what followed Oslo? More settlements, more checkpoints, and a peace process used to entrench occupation. That’s not ancient history. That’s why the so-called “endless conflict” keeps going: because power never negotiated in good faith.

Now to your next point: “Who’s fault is it Palestinians can’t hold elections?” You deflect to Islam as if democracy is incompatible with it. That’s not only historically false—it’s an old orientalist trope used to cover for real-world policy. In reality, Israel has routinely interfered in Palestinian democratic processes. In 2006, when Hamas won elections that were internationally monitored and certified, Israel and the U.S. immediately moved to isolate and sanction the new government. When that created a political schism, Israel deepened the divide, allowing Hamas to consolidate power in Gaza while weakening Fatah in the West Bank—a divide that suited Israeli policy perfectly.

You say, “Hardly the Israelis’ fault.” But Israel controls Gaza’s airspace, maritime borders, import/export infrastructure, population registry, and even the electromagnetic spectrum. Gaza is not independent—it is a blockaded, occupied, and manipulated territory, and has been since long before Hamas took power. To claim Israel bears no responsibility for the political vacuum it helped create is not just factually wrong—it’s willful blindness.

And here’s the heart of it: even if your frustration is genuine, frustration never justifies flattening cities or starving civilians. Your argument walks right up to the edge of justifying genocide—not with malice, but with exhaustion. But people don’t lose their right to live because you’re tired of hearing about them. And that’s the line too many are willing to cross.

You don’t have to love Hamas. You shouldn’t. But if your response to every critique of Israeli power is to shift blame back onto a besieged, stateless population, then you’re not defending democracy or security—you’re defending the right of the powerful to punish the powerless indefinitely.

There is no moral clarity without accountability on both sides. And if that balance offends you, it might be because you weren’t looking for clarity to begin with—just a justification for the suffering of people you’ve already decided don’t deserve better.

Hamas has built their military bases on top of hospitals. I think that gives Israel a free pass to bomb hospitals. Yes, really. Hamas knew the obvious outcome of making this choice.

On the starving children. Yes, that's terrible. Israel shouldn't. But they also need to break Hamas. If starving them out is the only way, then it's the only way. Which makes me sad. But Hamas is such an extreme and vile organisation, they just have to go.

What you’re saying is exactly how war crimes happen. Not by accident. Not by rage. But by people convincing themselves that atrocity is a sad necessity—just this once.

Let’s be clear: even if Hamas embeds near or inside civilian infrastructure, it does not give Israel a “free pass” to bomb hospitals. That’s not my opinion. That’s black letter international law. The Geneva Conventions, Additional Protocol I, and customary international humanitarian law all require that any military strike must distinguish between combatants and civilians, and must be proportional, even if the enemy violates those same laws. You don’t get to say, “They used human shields, so we wiped out the shield.” That’s not defense. That’s a second war crime.

And starving children? You say, “Yes, that’s terrible. Israel shouldn’t. But…” There is no “but” here. Starvation as a method of warfare is explicitly banned under Article 54 of Additional Protocol I to the Geneva Conventions. It is a war crime under the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court. You just admitted that it’s happening, that it’s terrible—and then excused it because it might “break Hamas.”

What you’re describing is not just the logic of collective punishment—it’s the logic of siege warfare against a civilian population. And history remembers what that is, whether it’s Leningrad, Sarajevo, or Gaza.

You say it makes you sad. Good. It should. But sadness doesn’t justify surrendering your moral compass. If your solution to a vile organization is to make millions suffer, the majority of whom are women and children, then what exactly are you fighting for? Justice? Peace? Human rights? Or just dominance?

You say Hamas “has to go.” Fine. But if the path to that is flattening neighborhoods, bombing hospitals, and engineering famine—then what you’re advocating isn’t liberation. It’s annihilation.

And one day, history will ask not whether you felt sad—but whether you looked at those children and said, “Yes, really.”

There's been almost zero popular Palestinian movement against Hamas. Palestinians have a huge politically active expat community. There's no voices I've ever seen speaking up against Hamas. It's all against Israel. Sure, Gaza is not a democracy. And authoritarian. But that doesn't give a free pass to Palestinians to support them.

You’re assuming that silence equals support. That’s a dangerous and lazy assumption—especially when we’re talking about people living under authoritarian rule, under blockade, and under constant threat of bombardment. Gaza is not a democracy, and it’s not a safe place to dissent. Speaking out against Hamas in Gaza can get you imprisoned, tortured, or killed. That’s not speculation—that’s well-documented by Palestinian human rights organizations like Al-Mezan and international watchdogs like Human Rights Watch.

You say there’s “almost zero popular Palestinian movement against Hamas.” Of course there isn’t—because they’re crushed by Hamas and bombed by Israel. What protest movement thrives in a war zone? When you can’t leave, can’t gather, can’t speak freely, and face drones overhead and militias on the ground, public dissent becomes a death sentence. This is not passive consent. It’s fear, survival, and despair.

As for the diaspora: again, you’re conflating anger at Israel with endorsement of Hamas. Palestinians outside Gaza often do criticize Hamas—but they also know that the vast majority of the suffering comes from Israeli military power, not Hamas’ misrule. That’s not tribalism. That’s basic proportionality. You’ve set up a rhetorical trap: if Palestinians condemn Hamas, they’re useful; if they condemn Israel, they’re radical. That’s not moral reasoning. That’s control.

Your entire argument rests on the idea that Palestinians somehow “owe” the world visible, sustained, suicidal resistance to a group that Israel itself helped rise to power—and then used as a justification to bomb them. That’s not moral accountability. That’s demanding oppressed people perform their purity before you’ll recognize their humanity.

No one’s giving Hamas a free pass. The difference is, I don’t believe the only way to oppose Hamas is by obliterating 2.2 million people. You seem to.

You have a point. I don't disagree. The difference lies in how extreme the 7/10 attacks were. We (as in humanity) can't allow an organisation like that stay in power. That would be unacceptable. That's the main lesson we learned from WW2. Yes, it sucks for the starving children of Gaza. But war is never pretty

I appreciate that you’re engaging seriously here. But this is where the moral center either holds—or collapses entirely.

Yes, October 7 was horrific. No one should minimize it. Massacring civilians and taking hostages are war crimes. But what you’re arguing now is that because Hamas committed atrocities, Israel is justified in committing them too—just more slowly, with state approval, and on a far larger scale.

You say, “We can’t allow an organization like that to stay in power.” Fine. But obliterating an entire civilian population to remove that organization isn’t justice—it’s atrocity management. And it’s precisely what we were supposed to have learned from World War II: that the horror of one side’s crimes never licenses the other side to erase the laws of war and humanity itself.

You say it “sucks for the starving children of Gaza.” No. It doesn’t just “suck.” It violates the laws of armed conflict. It violates the Rome Statute. It violates basic decency. Children are not acceptable collateral in your war against an ideology. When you say “war is never pretty,” what you’re really saying is that some lives are expendable—just not yours.

Here’s the reality: you can remove Hamas without razing Gaza. You can pursue justice without abandoning it. What you’re defending now isn’t necessity—it’s moral surrender. It’s the normalization of mass death, because the targets are politically easy to dismiss.

We don’t get to mourn October 7 while excusing what’s happening every day after it. If we do, then we didn’t learn anything from WWII—we just chose a different group to dehumanize.

And there you lost me. I don't think that follows at all. Yes, I accuse those who refuse to assign guilt to the Palestinians as racists.

After WW2 we blamed it all on Hitler. It's was a convenient lie. The blame for Germany's war crimes was shared by millions of Germans. We just decided to forgive and move on, for the sake of world peace. It's the same deal the Gaza. They share a lot of the guilt for Hamas' actions. But first, Hamas needs to go.

You didn’t lose me—I think you’re just uncomfortable confronting where your logic leads.

Let’s take your WWII analogy seriously, because you’re misapplying it in ways that actually undermine your case.

Yes, after the war, many Germans were guilty—through action, inaction, or support. But how did the world respond? Not by flattening every German city after Hitler fell. Not by starving German children to “break Nazism.” In fact, the exact opposite: we launched the Marshall Plan. We rebuilt the country we had just fought, because the lesson of WWII wasn’t just “destroy fascism”—it was don’t let collective punishment become your tool to do it.

That’s the part you’re leaving out.

You say Gazans “share the guilt” for Hamas, and therefore Hamas “needs to go”—as if that equation gives carte blanche to destroy Gaza to save it. But Hamas isn’t gone, and Gaza is already in ruins. So what you’re arguing is that mass civilian death is the necessary cost for a political goal. That’s not post-war justice. That’s siege warfare in real time.

Even if you were right that some share guilt, that does not justify starving children, bombing hospitals, or wiping out entire neighborhoods. Justice is not served by punishing people based on proximity, ethnicity, or geography. That’s not holding people accountable. That’s how ethnic cleansing is rationalized.

The truth is, when you say “first, Hamas needs to go,” you’re not arguing strategy—you’re making peace conditional on mass suffering. But if you truly cared about a future beyond Hamas, you’d be more worried about how obliterating Gaza now is ensuring that whatever comes after Hamas may be even worse. Despair is the soil extremism grows in. And you are watering it.

So no—I don’t refuse to assign guilt. I refuse to accept guilt as a death sentence. That’s not justice. That’s how civilizations lose their soul while pretending to save it.

NHC

 

[Playball40]

How do you know that?

Even I knew about the tunnels Gazans were building years ago.
You didn't?
Tom

Really? You saw them? Why didn't you sound the alarm and tell the citizens to 'report' it?

 

[Playball40]

A monumental tragedy is already occurring, genocide in real time before our eyes.

And the disaster will continue as long as the culprits, Gazan leadership and their supporters, keep managing to shift the blame onto Israeli defense.
Tom

How is starving innocent children "defense" in any reality? How is murdering innocent people "defense"? It's not.

 

[TomC]

How do you know that?

Even I knew about the tunnels Gazans were building years ago.
You didn't?
Tom

Really? You saw them? Why didn't you sound the alarm and tell the citizens to 'report' it?

I read media reports about them and how the Gazans Who Matter were using them to attack Israel.
So yeah, why didn't anyone sound an alarm or report it to the UN or something. Why didn't any of the people who could have had investments in infrastructure instead of military strike capabilities complain? Ya know, the Gazans. Why did Hamas remain so popular in Gaza and the sympathetic international community?

It's a very good question. Why didn't anyone do anything about the military buildup in Gaza before the catastrophe?
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

A monumental tragedy is already occurring, genocide in real time before our eyes.

And the disaster will continue as long as the culprits, Gazan leadership and their supporters, keep managing to shift the blame onto Israeli defense.
Tom

And as long as there are those who upchuck responsibility to only one side.