Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[bilby]

As with so much of the world, look for the answer that is the least surprising.

That's not sound advice in ANY situation; It is just an appeal to let ones biases have full reign.

 

[bilby]

Can you find a news report of "man gets speeding ticket"?

Took less than a second:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-06...-for-driving-100kph-in-an-100kph-zone/6513868

 

[laughing dog]

Israel was hit by 21 000 rockets over the past month.

These rockets don't make it into the news. Because it's not news. It just keeps going.. on and on and on. And has, with short breaks, for decades.

And this is what people keep ignoring.

News reports the unusual. Not the horrific normal.

Your news is IDF “news”.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israel has issued official statements expressing concern for civilian casualties, particularly at aid distribution sites, and claims to be implementing changes. They’re also actively engaged in ceasefire negotiations. But by Dr. Zoidberg’s logic, I suppose that makes the Israeli government mouthpieces for Hamas.

Of course there are casualties at the aid sites. Hamas is ensuring that.

If Hamas actually were trying to feed the people why this:

Sada News - The Ministry of Interior in the Gaza Strip and the National Security warned on Thursday against dealing or cooperating, directly or indirectly, with the American organization called the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation (GHF) or with any of its local or foreign agents, under any name or circumstance

Lots of ominous words but the penalty isn't spelled out.

Original (Arabic): https://www.sadanews.ps/news/196729.html

It's not about the people, it's about the fact that actually delivering the aid was never what Hamas wanted.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Why the Palestinian casualties are so high is because Hamas has been planning for this all the time. Its the same deal in Lebanon. Hezbollah military headquarters are under hospitals. This is how they operate.

Hamas did take a long time to plan their terrorist atrocities. They might have expected Israel’s response, but it was not possible for them to plan it unless they have moles in the IDF.

No need of moles. Everyone who paid attention knew what was going to happen. This isn't the first rodeo!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You have it backwards. You want nothing done to prevent Hams from committing atrocity after atrocity.

I don’t support Hamas, never have, never will. Not explicitly, not implicitly. So let’s stop pretending this manufactured narrative is anything but a deliberate misrepresentation meant to provoke. Mission accomplished, you got a reaction. But it doesn’t make the claim any less false, and it doesn’t make your tactic any less transparent.

You don't support them, but you're doing exactly what they want you to do.

 

[bilby]

If Hamas actually were trying to feed the people why this:

Sada News - The Ministry of Interior in the Gaza Strip and the National Security warned on Thursday against dealing or cooperating, directly or indirectly, with the American organization called the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation (GHF) or with any of its local or foreign agents, under any name or circumstance

Lots of ominous words but the penalty isn't spelled out.

Well, you've got us there. There is absolutely no possible reason to warn against cooperating with a foreign agency from a nation that is allied to your enemy during wartime.

No such agency has ever, in the history of warfare, been used to infiltrate spies or saboteurs, and the very idea that anyone might try to do that under cover of humanitarian assistance is unthinkable.

 

[laughing dog]

Why the Palestinian casualties are so high is because Hamas has been planning for this all the time. Its the same deal in Lebanon. Hezbollah military headquarters are under hospitals. This is how they operate.

Hamas did take a long time to plan their terrorist atrocities. They might have expected Israel’s response, but it was not possible for them to plan it unless they have moles in the IDF.

No need of moles. Everyone who paid attention knew what was going to happen. This isn't the first rodeo!

You missed the point entirely - Hamas could not plan the IDF response.

BTW, if everyone knew it was going to happen, why was Israel surprised?

 

[laughing dog]

You have it backwards. You want nothing done to prevent Hams from committing atrocity after atrocity.

I don’t support Hamas, never have, never will. Not explicitly, not implicitly. So let’s stop pretending this manufactured narrative is anything but a deliberate misrepresentation meant to provoke. Mission accomplished, you got a reaction. But it doesn’t make the claim any less false, and it doesn’t make your tactic any less transparent.

You don't support them, but you're doing exactly what they want you to do.

According to you, TomC, snd Dr Zoidberg, the IDF is doing exactly what they want the IDF to do.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You have been reminded over and over and over again of oppressions that Palestinians have endured for decades. To remind you of just the most clear-cut example, there are a million Israelis illegally(*) settled in the West Bank at considerable loss to the Palestinians they have displaced. These settlements were NOT for Israel's security. Many of the settlers occupied the stolen land NOT because "God gave the land to" them but because the Israel government subsidized the settlements.

Have you ever told us how you would feel if an Army of Muslims arrived in your town with superior force, and kicked you out of your home so they could live there?

* - To state the obvious for Mr. Pechtel's benefit, in this context "illegal" obviously refers to International Law, and not to the hypocrisies of the criminal Tel Aviv regime.

As for the kicking out part--you have been repeatedly reminded that that basically didn't happen. Most of the departures were of their own free will before the fighting started.

You appear to be conflating two completely different issues -- two different displacements:

1. The displacement of Palestinians during 1947-49. This is obviously NOT what I was speaking of, but, pedictability, you get it wrong also. Many of the departures were voluntary; I'm not sure about "most" -- does it matter? Approximately 15,000 Palestinians, mostly civilian, were killed during that conflict and 750,000+ Palestinian Arabs fled or were expelled.
   
   Benny Morris is a distinguished Professor of History and describes himself as a Zionist.
   

   What the new material shows is that there were far more Israeli acts of massacre than I had previously thought. To my surprise, there were also many cases of rape. In the months of April-May 1948, units of the Haganah [the pre-state defense force that was the precursor of the IDF] were given operational orders that stated explicitly that they were to uproot the villagers, expel them and destroy the villages themselves.

   The term "ethnic cleansing" has been applied to much anti-Arab activity. Some of this dates back to the British conquest of Palestine in World War I, with the 1917 Balfour Declaration partly responsible for anti-Arab oppression.
   

   Aerial photographs taken by first world war German pilots are combined with mandate-era and Israeli maps supplemented by digitally enhanced satellite images that record old tribal boundaries, neighbourhoods and even individual buildings. Most striking are the hundreds of Arab villages that were destroyed or ploughed under fields, as well as postwar Jewish settlements and suburbs.

   
   I do NOT advocate tracing the conflict back into old history or ancient history. (Did it all start when Isaac' son Jacob cheated his older brother of his inheritance? ) BUT that is what you seem to do. You point to any item of bad Hamas or Palestinian behavior and use it to justify any of Netanyahu's war crimes after that date.

Satellite images that show stuff was ploughed under?? That requires before and after and I really don't think there were any birds up there to provide a before. Thus this is clearly wrong.

They could be referring to old records, but there has been a lot of fabrication in those.

1. 
   
   
2. But what I was obviously referring to was the illegal confiscation of Palestinian land in the West Bank. These settlements began in earnest in 1974 and continue until the present.
   
   Let me repeat the question you are unwilling to answer:
   Have you ever told us how you would feel if an Army of Muslims arrived in your town with superior force, and kicked you out of your home so they could live there?

And this is assuming people were kicked out. But apparently they has some very good stealth technology that made their towns look like empty land in old pictures.

The Arab nations encouraged them to get out of the way of the coming war, they listened. Oops, the war didn't go as expected. And they wouldn't swear to be peaceful if they returned, thus they were not allowed to return.

And, once again, you bring up the settlements. I've already said I don't like them, but that they are a red herring. The war traces back to 1948, unless the Palestinians have a time machine the settlements have nothing to do with that.

Read your own words, please! Everything AFTER 1948 is irrelevant, of no moral consequence ... according to YOU. You think Palestinians who are long-since dead did something wrong in 1948 so any atrocities committed by Israel after that date are justified, but any reprisal against Israel is evil. By that logic the abuses of Britain in 1917 should be relevant. Or should we go back to Genesis Chapter 25? Hogwash! Gibberish!! Two wrongs do NOT make a right! Did you not learn this in 2nd grade??

I'm not saying it's irrelevant. I'm saying any claim that events after 1948 are the cause of the conflict is inherently wrong. But it's always actions after 1948 that are the supposed cause.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It’s deeply disturbing that someone would invoke the rape of women, not to seek justice or solidarity, but to excuse the killing of women in Gaza.

It's the classic example of victim blaming.

That post you quoted was in response to this.

Many on here claim that Hamas' actions are due to Israel's actions. Let's reframe that a bit: rape is due to women being immodest. (The Israeli action that's behind everything: existence.)

Nice try trying to deflect from the fact that you’re advocating collective punishment against Palestinian women and children, by weaponizing the trauma of rape victims to justify it. It’s manipulative, transparent, and disgusting.

You still are baaing Hamas "facts." Like "punishment".

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Lauren, the irony in your response is almost impressive. You accuse me of proposing “magical answers,” then turn around and suggest that indefinite military rule, mass civilian casualties, and open-ended occupation somehow lead to peace. That’s not realism. That’s delusion weaponized.

You continue to commit exactly the same mistake.

You continue to present evidence that the current situation is very ugly, and that somehow proves there's a better answer. But it doesn't prove anything.

You present a narrative that the current situation is very ugly but unavoidable, so there are no possible better choices. But that doesn’t prove anything.

You are making the assertion that there are better choices. How about pointing to some professional who has laid out a better option? Not merely asserted that better options exist. I find the silence deafening--lots of professionals out there who are hostile to Israel, none have presented a better plan.

I've already posted the United States' military's rules of engagement.

So? Nothing in what you posted addresses actions in response to a possible ambush.

Nobody attacked that bus, thus what you are allowed to attack has no bearing on the situation. That was a fender bender that everyone would be expected to walk away from.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Prove it using reason.

Prove what?
That Loren didn't say or claim the things you assert?

You're making the assertions, and you didn't back them up.
Tom

You are handwaving your denial. That is not proving it with reason.

Try explaining why you think each one of those statements does not back up my assertion that LP denied there were starving children.

Without a reasoned rational, your denial cannot be taken seriously.

All of those come down to saying the evidence for starvation is extremely iffy.

But, much more important to me is that Hamas isn't finding them. Last I knew they were up to 60 which is a drop in the bucket compared to what has been projected. I do not trust the Hamas data, but I do consider it a pretty good upper bound. Remember, there are medical reasons for malnutrition deaths. Sometimes it's direct (the body turns upon food badly enough--you still haven't answered about what to do if you're anaphylactic to one of the items I indicated), sometimes it's because someone can't digest food for some reason. I've already pointed out there are 40k (probably actually higher) TPN patients in the US. Virtually all of them would be malnutrition deaths in Gaza.

The expected malnutrition death rate is not zero, thus showing that it is not zero is not proving anything. (Not that it has actually been shown, anyway.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

This is probably why Hamas wrecked the Gaza economy. To make them dependent on Iranian handouts, and giving the Palestinians in Gaza few opportunities other than becoming fighters for them. It's fits their cruel and cynical methods of operating.

Definitely agree with this part.

South Africa--worse than it ever was under the Apartheid regime. They most clearly stepped from the frying pan to the fire. They threw off a small white boot in favor of a giant black boot. Same thing happened in Zimbabwe. When we were there it wasn't unsafe (so long as you stayed away from the minefields), but the fact it was heading into the shitter was apparent without even leaving the airport. And around the world in general the most prized currency was the US$--but in Africa it was the South African Rand (whose symbol I do not recall.)

Or Nigeria. An apartheid regime in operation at the same time as apartheid in South Africa. But because it was blacks opressing blacks, the western wokes got confused and just ignored it.

Nigeria was a major mess (and, yes, I saw it from the ground), but why do you say apartheid?

Muslims opressing Muslims is not a juicy story. Ie Hamas opressing Palestinians. But the Jews doing it is. Even though they have been bending over backwards to accomodate the Palestinians.

It's not even a matter of juicy. It's just nobody is spending vast effort on hyping it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In the early to mid-1970s, Iran supplied a significant portion of Israel’s oil, around 30%, through the Eilat–Ashkelon pipeline, a joint venture between the two countries. At the time, Iran was primarily focused on regional threats like Iraq and the Soviet Union. Groups like Hezbollah didn’t even exist yet. Then the United States backed a coup that overthrew Iran’s democratically elected leader and propped up a deeply unpopular Shah. His shitty rule sparked the 1979 revolution, which severed ties with Israel and changed Iran’s foreign policy. But today, you still hear people, repeating simplistic talking points, claiming that Iran started it like they're still on a kindergarten playground. They ignore the complex history of shifting alliances, Western intervention, and regional politics because they are too preoccupied with jerking themselves off to climax over a false sense of self riotousness.

Edit: Yes I meant self riotousness.

Omitting that that "democratically elected" guy was a Russian pawn. They wanted to do the same thing to Iran they did to Afghanistan.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Loren, your comment reads like nostalgia for colonial rule. Claiming South Africa was “better under apartheid” because post-apartheid governments have struggled is like saying a patient was healthier before surgery because they’re still in recovery. These countries didn’t fail because of Black leadership, they were handed hella broken systems after centuries of exploitation. That’s not stepping from a small boot to a bigger one, it’s trying to walk after being trampled.

And DrZoidberg, yes, Hamas absolutely oppresses Palestinians. That’s an undisputable fact. But that doesn’t excuse the dehumanizing garbage you post.

Anyway, you two should really get a room, preferably at a museum of colonial nostalgia, right between the apartheid gift shop and the “blame the oppressed” exhibit.

Nostalgia?? No. Just a recognition of the reality that "freedom" wasn't. Changing the skin color of the oppressor doesn't make it not oppression.

And the problem has nothing to do with skin color. Just look at the world--when a group overthrows the local government in a long war the result is always bad. Always. The thing is succeeding in such a war selects for ruthless evil, not for ability to run a country. While it was blacks overthrowing whites that has no bearing on the outcome.

Note things like Eastern Europe: The governments were so unpopular that all it took was a nudge and the whole thing fell apart virtually bloodlessly. That can produce a good outcome. Likewise, overthrowing a colonial power sometimes worked.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Neither Israel nor the United States recognizes Hamas as a legitimate government, yet people like TomC, DrZoidberg, and Loren are effectively legitimizing Hamas, by treating them as the sole voice or representative of all Palestinians. Meanwhile, Israel itself has said it wants to avoid civilian casualties and holds Hamas, not the people, responsible.

So really, who’s undermining Israel’s stated position here? Because it sure looks like it’s not me.

They waddle and quack as a government.

Doesn't mean any of us want to see the civilians suffer.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The Israeli gov't does little to nothing to either prevent settler violence or arrest violent settlers. That is a fact.
Educate yourself - Settler Violence

If you want to educate yourself that's not a site to go to.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Once again, half the story. The point about radicalization being about perception is that it doesn't need any actual oppression. Simple example: the Incel movement. Men who can't find a romantic partner + radicalization. There's no oppressor.

So now Palestinians whose land has been stolen, who have been blockaded and bombed, who have been kept in an open-air prison in Gaza, aren’t being oppressed at all — they’re just like incels! And just like incels who have the temerity to think they are entitled to have sex, the Palestinians have the temerity to feel they are entitled to food, water, and secure living conditions. Imagine the gall!

<Thawack with a clue-by-4!>
He was using the perception of wrong as proof of wrong. I'm pointing to the incels as evidence that perception of wrong does not require actual wrong. I'm not comparing them to incels.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

They either prefer to stay or they can not leave because they are not allowed to, by Egypt and Hamas and Hamas' supporters.

I honestly believe that a bunch of them would rather escape Hamas. Israel would rather that they did. So, why is there not a big bunch of Gazans fleeing Gaza?

Because the GWM and their international supporters don't want to lose them. Those people need human shields to use for the media.
Tom

Yeah, remember that stupid floating pier?

One of the objections to it was that people might escape via it. Hamas objection, not Israel.

If you are talking about this floating pier - The rise and fall of the US aid pier for Gaza -

The pier was dismantled last week after delivering less aid than hoped due to fire, weather and distribution struggles​

No mention in the article of Hamas at all.

So, do you have a source that indicates the pier was removed at Hamas's request?

Can you present something other than strawmen?

I was simply saying Hamas objected to it because people might escape. I did not say that's why it was abandoned.

I do not know why it was abandoned, but I suspect Israel pointing out reality to them caused it: Hamas shelled the pier. A very light attack but it's an indication that if they don't stop there will be heavy shelling.