Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Loren Pechtel]

You're defending the system that lost 90% of the food.

The fuck I am. What is wrong with you? Add any sense nuance in a position and Loren slaps a bazillion positions on you.

You want the aid to flow to the system that lost 90% of it.

I'm not slapping positions on you, just showing what you are actually supporting.

I'm making the statement that people like TomC recognize that children in Gaza are starving. Justify this shit all you want. I won't justify Hamas' actions and I won't justify starvation.

The only starvation is due to Hamas actions. Hamas kills people so you bash Israel so Hamas kills more people.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I don't support the starving of children. But you know that

If support Israel's policies then you support exactly that.

Starving kids are the results of Gazans policies!
Pretending that it's due to Israelis defending themselves against Gazans is flat out "Supporting Hamas."
Tom

Blockading food and medicine is not defending oneself from attack. Hamas cannot hoard what is not there.

Oh, and by the way, israeli military officials say there is no proof that Hamas systematically stole aid (No Proof Hamas Routinely Stole U.N. Aid, Israeli Military Officials Say

Its because, (according to Israel, impossible to externally verify) Hamas steals the aid and uses it to extort loyalty from Gazans.

The report I cited quotes Israeli military officers that dispute your claims.

Your evidence does not prove what you think it proves.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I don't support the starving of children. But you know that

If support Israel's policies then you support exactly that.

Starving kids are the results of Gazans policies!
Pretending that it's due to Israelis defending themselves against Gazans is flat out "Supporting Hamas."
Tom

Blockading food and medicine is not defending oneself from attack. Hamas cannot hoard what is not there.

Oh, and by the way, israeli military officials say there is no proof that Hamas systematically stole aid (No Proof Hamas Routinely Stole U.N. Aid, Israeli Military Officials Say

Its because, (according to Israel, impossible to externally verify) Hamas steals the aid and uses it to extort loyalty from Gazans.

The report I cited quotes Israeli military officers that dispute your claims.

The article is paywalled

Doesn't matter--just look at the headline more carefully.

Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

During the blockade by Israel (something you defended), there was no aid to distribute. That was on Israel.

The resulting malnutrition is a problem.

I realize you only accept Israel’s reporting of events, but Israel announced its blockade, so your failure to recognize it is “interesting”.

If there really had been no food the blockade would have been catastrophic--yet we saw no pictures of starving people, plenty of pictures of people that had enough to eat. Israel judged correctly that it would simply draw down the Hamas stockpiles.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm not going to stop calling out the antisemitism and racism im this thread.

It would be nice if you could point it out, before calling it out. Because I am not seeing it.

Nobody here has posted anything antisemitic or racist; Mere opposition to Bibi, or his policies, is neither.

Extreme double standards against Jews as well as only trusting absurd and obvious anti-Israeli propaganda is another tell tale sign.

To me the double standard is the big thing. Especially all the cases of "IDF snipers" where that makes no sense and where the obvious beneficiary is Hamas. Yet people unquestioningly believe it's Israel.

You're in good company. Leftist media in general (which today is most of the mainstream media) are fully leading with the pro-Hamas propaganda line. No doubt because it's a juicier story. It's a simpler and more emotionally impactful narrative. Sleepy people don't like nuance to read in the morning before the coffee has kicked in. It's not that they're lying. But you need to pay attention to the actual text in the articles. Not just which value laden words they lead with.

Baaing is so much easier than thinking. And thinking would require admitting that one had been duped into supporting evil.

The PLO figured out how to manipulate western press, by maximising Palestinian civilian suffering, and Hamas are just following that tradition. Yassir Arafat didn't live in Gaza. He lived on the French riviera in a life of luxury. Paid for by foreign aid to Gaza. The leadership of Hamas live in Qatar, in lives of oppulence and luxury. Paid for by foreign aid and Iran. The people you think you are supporting are parasites living off the manufactured suffering of the Palestinian people. And Israel is the only viable option right now to stop them. Yet you are criticising them for doing what needs to be done. How is that not antisemitism?

I don't think Israel can stop them. But Israel isn't obligated to turn the other cheek.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

@DrZoidberg today I reported six or seven of your posts for slander, insults and rules violations.

Lol. I'm sorry the truth hurts your feelings. If you don't like being called out for the horrible things you are saying, perhaps try not saying them?

I'm not going to stop calling out the antisemitism and racism im this thread. I think the world needs it more than ever.

I find it extremely distutbing how quickly the world turned on Jews, the moment they again needed the world's support.

If any of my posts get removed... that'd be another sad statistic in this propaganda war.

I'm not going to stop . If any mods find any of my posts unwelcome. Please save as all the trouble and just ban me.

Dr Zoidberg, you conflate "Jewish" and "Israeli".

Worse, you conflate "Jewish" and "the Israeli government".

"Zionist" and "the Israeli government" are almost always just politically correct forms of saying "Jew".

I defy you to cite any instance of antisemitic rhetoric here, other than disapproval of government actions which you have redirected to Jews in your own mind.

It's not words. It's the unquestioned belief in any allegation of Israel is wrong, the unwillingness to consider that maybe they're right. The unquestioned belief in starvation despite Hamas being completely unable to find someone starving without medical reason. The Hamas silence on this is deafening, but goes ignored.

Just look at what's recently happened--they've complained about diversion of the aid for ages. Now the UN finally admits 90% was diverted.

We have had a lot of reportage of people at aid stations gunned down by members of the IDF. How do you justify that?

Because all such reports come from Gaza--and thus are under Hamas control.

And note that the evidence is that they are gunned down--that the IDF did it has not been shown. The GHF is devastating for Hamas, they go around killing people picking up food so you'll baa.

The Israeli government is doing a terrible thing to innocent civilians in support of their territorial ambitions. Not just direct deaths and physical harms (wounds and starvation) but destruction of homes and livelihoods. You seem to be advocating that the world not intervene because of our collective guilt over another terrible thing which happened in the past.

These things don't cancel each other out, it's just another 62,700 people dead in support of another predator's territorial rapacity.

Territorial? This war is about the hostages. If Hamas were to return them the world would make Israel stop overnight.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It's for saying stuff like this that makes me call you an antisemite. Each of those dead can be blamed on Hamas. Not the IDF IMHO.

Anyone can fling "blame" on anyone for any reason. For example, each of those deaths can be blamed on Charlie Brown or you.

But the actual physical reality is that when anyone drops a bomb that kills people, the bomb is the immediate cause of their deaths. Since bombs are not made, sent and dropped only by natural, impersonal forces, but are the result of conscious choices made by people, those who choose to drop bombs are responsible for their choices, no matter how justified anyone feels those choices are.

bilby, spikepipsqueak, Arctish, zorg, Gospel Ziprhead, pood and others are recognizing that reality - that does not make them racists nor antisemites. Your adherence and persistence in your irrational slurs ,while bolstering your ego, undermine your credability as a knowledgable discussant. Frankly, your willingness to fling such slurs provides a new application to the saying "Every accusation is an admission".

We are placing the blame on the party that acted with the intent of creating the situation. What we are seeing happen is a Hamas objective, not an Israeli objective.

 

[DrZoidberg]

It's for saying stuff like this that makes me call you an antisemite. Each of those dead can be blamed on Hamas. Not the IDF IMHO.

Anyone can fling "blame" on anyone for any reason. For example, each of those deaths can be blamed on Charlie Brown or you.

But the actual physical reality is that when anyone drops a bomb that kills people, the bomb is the immediate cause of their deaths. Since bombs are not made, sent and dropped only by natural, impersonal forces, but are the result of conscious choices made by people, those who choose to drop bombs are responsible for their choices, no matter how justified anyone feels those choices are.

That’s a cop out imho. Its a moral stance intended to make someone feel morally superior white being passive and enabling evil.

If you are not willing to fight for your values, then you don't have values.

bilby, spikepipsqueak, Arctish, zorg, Gospel Ziprhead, pood and others are recognizing that reality - that does not make them racists nor antisemites. Your adherence and persistence in your irrational slurs ,while bolstering your ego, undermine your credability as a knowledgable discussant. Frankly, your willingness to fling such slurs provides a new application to the saying "Every accusation is an admission".

"Irrational"?!? Did I hurt your feelings? Don’t you think Jews might feel hurt when people say antisemitic things?

A "zionist" is a Jew who moved to Israel because their home country wasn't safe anymore for Jews. And it's getting worse all the time. I, personally, don't know any Jewish family who moved to Israel because it's "the promised land". Zionism is less about moving to something, as it is moving away from something. Anyway... imaginine how a Jew might feel when a gentile openly condemns zionism?

 

[laughing dog]

Blockading food and medicine is not defending oneself from attack. Hamas cannot hoard what is not there.

90% got intercepted in Gaza. That's what Hamas hoarded.

How does blockaded food - food that is not in Gaza (that’s what blockade means) - get intercepted in Gaza?

You are continuing to assume "facts" clearly contrary to reality.

You claim blockade.

Israel claimed blockade

Can you pay a little attention? The issue is the UN just admitted that 90% of the stuff that had entered Gaza did not reach the UN distribution sites. Already entered, blockade isn't relevant.

You jumped in with a response to “Blockading ….”, so nothing entered. Please either take your own advice <Mod Removed>.

>Read the thread. I linked to the UN page with the data
.

How about a post number? I’m not searching through your posts.

I don't recall the post number. Here's the horse's mouth again:

UN2720 Monitoring & Tracking Dashboard

Live humanitarian access tracking through UN2720.

app.un2720.org

Thank you. Interestingly, the UN uses the term “intercepted”, not lost, and reminds readers that armed people and hungry civilians are the interceptors. Not exactly your interpretation that it all goes to Hamas.

I'm saying the words are being taken out of context by those who wish to continue to blame Israel.

The facts are simple:
90% got diverted after crossing the border.
Nobody can actually prove who did the diversion.

Thus a reporter asked a loaded question that produced the answer you are quoting.

You’ve refused to provide any evidence that contradicts the Israeli military officers. You rely on an alleged unsourced (at this writing), undefined and self-constructed statistic and supposition to rebut the Israeli military officer's conclusions.

The problem is that you are misinterpreting the statement. Two issues: "was aid diverted" and "did it go to Hamas". The second part of this remains unproven. Thus the statement was true (there is no proof it was taken by Hamas), but does not mean what you pretend (that it wasn't diverted.)

It doesn’t mean what you pretend (that it does go to Hamas).

I relayed the reports findings - no evidence Hamad systematically stole supplies and that the UN system wss efficient. Contrary to your mistaken conclusion, I pretended nothing.


Your post indicates that if you paid more attention to the actual content of written material, these spats might be avoided.

 

[laughing dog]

It's for saying stuff like this that makes me call you an antisemite. Each of those dead can be blamed on Hamas. Not the IDF IMHO.

Anyone can fling "blame" on anyone for any reason. For example, each of those deaths can be blamed on Charlie Brown or you.

But the actual physical reality is that when anyone drops a bomb that kills people, the bomb is the immediate cause of their deaths. Since bombs are not made, sent and dropped only by natural, impersonal forces, but are the result of conscious choices made by people, those who choose to drop bombs are responsible for their choices, no matter how justified anyone feels those choices are.

That’s a cop out imho.

Recognizing reality is a “cop out”?

Its a moral stance intended to make someone feel morally superior white being passive and enabling evil.

If you are not willing to fight for your values, then you don't have values.

Ah,irony of that psychobabble non-sequitur is as refreshing as it is relevant.

bilby, spikepipsqueak, Arctish, zorg, Gospel Ziprhead, pood and others are recognizing that reality - that does not make them racists nor antisemites. Your adherence and persistence in your irrational slurs ,while bolstering your ego, undermine your credability as a knowledgable discussant. Frankly, your willingness to fling such slurs provides a new application to the saying "Every accusation is an admission".

"Irrational"?!? Did I hurt your feelings? Don’t you think Jews might feel hurt when people say antisemitic things?

Yes. Too bad those discussants didn’t do that.

 

[laughing dog]

We are placing the blame on the party that acted with the intent of creating the situation. What we are seeing happen is a Hamas objective, not an Israeli objective.

An implication of that position is that the gov’t of Israel has no agency.

And, if one thinks the gov’t of Israel has agency, then why choose to help their fanatical genocidal neighbors fulfill their objective?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What a surprise that the Arab nations have a different agenda than Israel. That's not the point. The point is that Muslims have managed to get over their retarded anti-Israel tribalism and are trying to work towards a realistic solution.

Its an improvement over the old idea, ie "kill all Jews".

It is. Once Israel eliminates it retarded only-Israel tribalism, a realistic peaceful solution may be in sight.

Yes, the dead are peaceful. Because you're asking for the Final Solution to be applied.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What a surprise that the Arab nations have a different agenda than Israel. That's not the point. The point is that Muslims have managed to get over their retarded anti-Israel tribalism and are trying to work towards a realistic solution.

Its an improvement over the old idea, ie "kill all Jews".

When was "kill all Jews" the idea of Muslim states?

The Nazis were Christians and Nazi Germany was European.

The Palestinians weren't interested in killing all Jews. Neither were the Jordanians, the Lebanese, the Saudis, the Egyptians, or the others in the area, except for a few random haters here and there that some posters like to pretend were "all Muslims".

And most people that beat their wives aren't interested in killing them--but that sometimes changes when their victims escape. That's what's happened with Israel.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

For example: When Hamas booby trapped every civilian house in Rafah, the IDF just levelled Rafah from above. That’s the sound strategic choice. That destruction should be blamed on Hamas. Those houses would likely have needed to come down anyway in the process of removing the booby traps. Its near impossible to do it safely without detonating them.

Instead it has widely been described as genocide, Israeli expansion, forced displacement and god knows what else.

When the double standards are this extreme, I think antisemitism is a valid conclusion

Actually, many could have been safely disarmed by Hamas because they were command detonate devices. Doesn't change the basic picture, though--the houses became weapons.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

DrZoidberg has me on Ignore so I am unable to ask him, but I do wonder how the IDF knew Hamas had booby trapped every civilian house in Rafah.

I also wonder how the civilians avoided the booby traps. And why, if it was possible for civilians to avoid them, it wasn't feasible for the IDF to avoid them as well.

Inspect via drone. As for how to avoid them: For the most part, the civilians were not there. (And when Israel let them return Hamas didn't because of the booby traps.) And the civilians that are present know what will set the bomb off--which is at the heart of what keeps being improperly reported as a war crime: The IDF would ask the civilians to show that the house wasn't booby trapped. This is not a war crime because they weren't made to, it's just that they would treat it as booby trapped if not shown otherwise. No different than showing the bomb squad what's in that bag or they'll use a disruptor on it. Also, many of the things were command detonated. Someone is watching with a camera and will push the button if they see Israelis.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

"Irrational"?!? Did I hurt your feelings? Don’t you think Jews might feel hurt when people say antisemitic things?

A "zionist" is a Jew who moved to Israel because their home country wasn't safe anymore for Jews. And it's getting worse all the time. I, personally, don't know any Jewish family who moved to Israel because it's "the promised land". Zionism is less about moving to something, as it is moving away from something. Anyway... imaginine how a Jew might feel when a gentile openly condemns zionism?

Exactly. History has repeatedly taught the Jews the survival benefits of getting out of locations that are going south--a big enough factor that we see an IQ difference. Israel is basically a last resort place of safety. Yes, it has it's expansionist loons, but the only reason they are tolerated is that the country knows it doesn't matter in the big picture--they'll be at war whether there are settlers or not.

 

[laughing dog]

What a surprise that the Arab nations have a different agenda than Israel. That's not the point. The point is that Muslims have managed to get over their retarded anti-Israel tribalism and are trying to work towards a realistic solution.

Its an improvement over the old idea, ie "kill all Jews".

It is. Once Israel eliminates it retarded only-Israel tribalism, a realistic peaceful solution may be in sight.

Yes, the dead are peaceful. Because you're asking for the Final Solution to be applied.

Eliminating tribalism on all sides leads to “the Final Solution”? Show your work because your conclusion seems more like kneejerk insanity than reasoned discourse.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Can you pay a little attention? The issue is the UN just admitted that 90% of the stuff that had entered Gaza did not reach the UN distribution sites. Already entered, blockade isn't relevant.

You jumped in with a response to “Blockading ….”, so nothing entered. Please either take your own advice or <Consistency Edit>.

I had pointed it out earlier in the thread. Apparently you didn't read that message.

>Read the thread. I linked to the UN page with the data
.

How about a post number? I’m not searching through your posts.

I don't recall the post number. Here's the horse's mouth again:

UN2720 Monitoring & Tracking Dashboard

Live humanitarian access tracking through UN2720.

app.un2720.org

Thank you. Interestingly, the UN uses the term “intercepted”, not lost, and reminds readers that armed people and hungry civilians are the interceptors. Not exactly your interpretation that it all goes to Hamas.

1) We have no proof of who is doing the intercepting--but there's no way that it's not mostly Hamas.

2) You're falling for the deception again. Of course the UN uses neutral language, they don't want to implicate Hamas.

I'm saying the words are being taken out of context by those who wish to continue to blame Israel.

The facts are simple:
90% got diverted after crossing the border.
Nobody can actually prove who did the diversion.

Thus a reporter asked a loaded question that produced the answer you are quoting.

You’ve refused to provide any evidence that contradicts the Israeli military officers. You rely on an alleged unsourced (at this writing), undefined and self-constructed statistic and supposition to rebut the Israeli military officer's conclusions.

The problem is that you are misinterpreting the statement. Two issues: "was aid diverted" and "did it go to Hamas". The second part of this remains unproven. Thus the statement was true (there is no proof it was taken by Hamas), but does not mean what you pretend (that it wasn't diverted.)

It doesn’t mean what you pretend (that it does go to Hamas).

I relayed the reports findings - no evidence Hamad systematically stole supplies and that the UN system wss efficient. Contrary to your mistaken conclusion, I pretended nothing.


Your post indicates that if you paid more attention to the actual content of written material, these spats might be avoided.

I paid attention--you're bending over backwards to avoid the obvious: that it's Hamas taking it. When you play contortionist to avoid blaming Hamas why are you surprised that some see it as antisemitism?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

We are placing the blame on the party that acted with the intent of creating the situation. What we are seeing happen is a Hamas objective, not an Israeli objective.

An implication of that position is that the gov’t of Israel has no agency.

And, if one thinks the gov’t of Israel has agency, then why choose to help their fanatical genocidal neighbors fulfill their objective?

Because Israel perfectly well knows that if they don't slam Hamas it's like with any bully, they'll escalate until they do get a reaction.

It ends up being the heavier a hand Israel uses the safer their people are. Ugly, but they are not in a position to change that. Everyone around there knows how to play safe with Israel--don't poke the porcupine. Don't let others poke the porcupine from within your territory. But there's always someone who will take the money and poke the porcupine.

 

[laughing dog]

You jumped in with a response to “Blockading ….”, so nothing entered. Please either take your own advice or <Consistency Edit>.

I had pointed it out earlier in the thread. Apparently you didn't read that message.

Still not taking your own advice. You jumped in to a different conversation and misunderstood.

I relayed the reports findings - no evidence Hamad systematically stole supplies and that the UN system wss efficient. Contrary to your mistaken conclusion, I pretended nothing.


Your post indicates that if you paid more attention to the actual content of written material, these spats might be avoided.

I paid attention--you're bending over backwards to avoid the obvious: that it's Hamas taking it. When you play contortionist to avoid blaming Hamas why are you surprised that some see it as antisemitism?

I am not the one who is literally making stuff up -you are. You admit no one can prove who is doing the diversions but insist it is Hamas.

Not only did you mischaracterize the UN report, you are misrepresenting my views because acknowledging that the gov’t of Israel role in these crimes against is not equivalent to denying Hamas’s.