Gaza: Some honest casualty numbers

[arkirk]

Since Hamas was born out of oppression and they live under constant oppression, what they do is not really terrorism.

It is violent resistance to oppression. A very different thing. Not necessarily justified, but not terrorism.

Please link where you got that definition of terrorism? I'm just curious........

Harry: Go to your dictionary and look up the word "resistance." The word "terrorism" has always been used against inadequately armed resistance by oppressors. It is also used against non violent demonstrators. You and Loren both quibble over trivial matters like exact definitions of right wing code words. You never seem to deal with the human suffering dealt out by Israel. You just keep spouting the same jargon then arguing over your own jargon. I personally don't use the word because it is meaningless. Obviously if somebody hunted a definition link down you approved of, it would probably come from the Netanyahu code book.

It astounds me that you have eyes but still don't seem able to see the destruction and murder being carried out against the Palestinians. Perhaps your TV can't get Amy Goodman.

 

[Sabine Grant]

It is my understanding that what qualifies Hamas as a terrorist group is their systematically targeting civilians. Whereas the IDF when causing civilian casualties in the Gaza it is due to the high population density in the Gaza strip to where their targeting Hamas militant locations/armaments can only result in civilian collateral damage. Though I disagree with Israeli policies, it should not blind me to the reality that the IDF does not willfully and purposefully cause civilian harm and casualties whereas there is ample evidence that Hamas (whether it be rocket launching or militants penetrating into Israel) willfully and purposefully targets civilians.

For those who may not be aware of the content of the Charter of the Hamas :

http://fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818.htm

and noting this specific :

The time(16) will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and

kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: 0

Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will

not apply to the Gharqad(17), which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and

Muslim)(18).

What the above reveals is an ideology advocating the eradication of ALL Jews. No distinction whatsoever between innocent civilians and an oppressing government/ military establishment. Under such "divine" ordinance, it is no surprise that Hamas aims to kill as many Jews as possible to include blowing up a school bus loaded with children. Those children falling under the mandate to be killed because they are Jews. It matters not to Hamas as long as the casualties they cause will be the result of the quoted above. It is a mandate issued from their sacred/holy scriptures to kill all Jews.

I am rather certain that the IDF is not guided by a similar ideology to where they are mandated by some "divine" ordinance to kill all Muslims. They do apply the distinction between civilians and militants.Unfortunately the high population density in the Gaza and the aggravating factor of Hamas using civilians in the Gaza as human shields makes it inevitable that the IDF will cause civilian harm and casualties as well as damages to the Gaza infra structures and private habitations.

Hamas is a terrorist organization because they willfully and purposefully set out to harm and kill civilians at any given opportunity. With the added spice that those civilians being Jews is the ultimate justification.

 

[laughing dog]

It is my understanding that what qualifies Hamas as a terrorist group is their systematically targeting civilians. Whereas the IDF when causing civilian casualties in the Gaza it is due to the high population density in the Gaza strip to where their targeting Hamas militant locations/armaments can only result in civilian collateral damage. Though I disagree with Israeli policies, it should not blind me to the reality that the IDF does not willfully and purposefully cause civilian harm and casualties whereas there is ample evidence that Hamas (whether it be rocket launching or militants penetrating into Israel) willfully and purposefully targets civilians.

It is not clear that the IDF actions are not partially predicated on inducing terror. Nor is it a convincing argument that, in essence, Hamas is much much much worse. The civilians on both sides are killed regardless. Civilians on both sides are left homeless regardless. Hearts harden on both sids and the road to peace is more difficult regardless.

 

[arkirk]

It is my understanding that what qualifies Hamas as a terrorist group is their systematically targeting civilians. Whereas the IDF when causing civilian casualties in the Gaza it is due to the high population density in the Gaza strip to where their targeting Hamas militant locations/armaments can only result in civilian collateral damage. Though I disagree with Israeli policies, it should not blind me to the reality that the IDF does not willfully and purposefully cause civilian harm and casualties whereas there is ample evidence that Hamas (whether it be rocket launching or militants penetrating into Israel) willfully and purposefully targets civilians.

It is not clear that the IDF actions are not partially predicated on inducing terror. Nor is it a convincing argument that, in essence, Hamas is much much much worse. The civilians on both sides are killed regardless. Civilians on both sides are left homeless regardless. Hearts harden on both sids and the road to peace is more difficult regardless.

Hamas weapons...even their best weapons simply are not capable of sufficient accuracy or range to discriminate targets. Also, Hamas has no helicopters to drop leaflets telling the Israelis to get out. The difference is more one of accuracy and capability rather than intention. There is no doubt that Hamas would prefer to hit command and control military centers than civilians. They are simply incapable of controlling their unguided missiles. Also, Hamas is only one faction in Gaza. They do not command all the groups that are fighting.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I doubt Hamas (or the other terrorist organizations) are going to list the people as members if they aren't.

I see. Hamas is credible when they provide data that you agree with, otherwise they are not credible. Your defense of your cherry-picking is evidence of bias and nothing else. And, of course, being a listed member Hamas does not necessarily mean one is a terrorist.

In general organizations are a lot more credible when the information doesn't benefit them.

- - - Updated - - -

Since Hamas was born out of oppression and they live under constant oppression, what they do is not really terrorism.

It is violent resistance to oppression. A very different thing. Not necessarily justified, but not terrorism.

1) They weren't born out of oppression. They were born out of the desire of radical Muslims to reconquer the land lost to the Jews.

2) Where they came from has nothing to do with whether there actions are terrorism. You're just using "terrorism" as a generic for violence you don't approve of.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Please link where you got that definition of terrorism? I'm just curious........

Harry: Go to your dictionary and look up the word "resistance." The word "terrorism" has always been used against inadequately armed resistance by oppressors. It is also used against non violent demonstrators. You and Loren both quibble over trivial matters like exact definitions of right wing code words. You never seem to deal with the human suffering dealt out by Israel. You just keep spouting the same jargon then arguing over your own jargon. I personally don't use the word because it is meaningless. Obviously if somebody hunted a definition link down you approved of, it would probably come from the Netanyahu code book.

It astounds me that you have eyes but still don't seem able to see the destruction and murder being carried out against the Palestinians. Perhaps your TV can't get Amy Goodman.

We aren't quibbling. We are pointing out a fundamental difference: Terrorism targets those who have no combat ability. Resistance targets the opposing forces.

Only those who support terrorism pretend there isn't a difference.

 

[laughing dog]

In general organizations are a lot more credible when the information doesn't benefit them.

Logically, an unsupported generality is not evidence supporting a claim about a specific situation.

 

[Frikki]

Harry: Go to your dictionary and look up the word "resistance." The word "terrorism" has always been used against inadequately armed resistance by oppressors. It is also used against non violent demonstrators. You and Loren both quibble over trivial matters like exact definitions of right wing code words. You never seem to deal with the human suffering dealt out by Israel. You just keep spouting the same jargon then arguing over your own jargon. I personally don't use the word because it is meaningless. Obviously if somebody hunted a definition link down you approved of, it would probably come from the Netanyahu code book.

It astounds me that you have eyes but still don't seem able to see the destruction and murder being carried out against the Palestinians. Perhaps your TV can't get Amy Goodman.

We aren't quibbling. We are pointing out a fundamental difference: Terrorism targets those who have no combat ability. Resistance targets the opposing forces.

Only those who support terrorism pretend there isn't a difference.

<edit>Good to know.

 

[arkirk]

Harry: Go to your dictionary and look up the word "resistance." The word "terrorism" has always been used against inadequately armed resistance by oppressors. It is also used against non violent demonstrators. You and Loren both quibble over trivial matters like exact definitions of right wing code words. You never seem to deal with the human suffering dealt out by Israel. You just keep spouting the same jargon then arguing over your own jargon. I personally don't use the word because it is meaningless. Obviously if somebody hunted a definition link down you approved of, it would probably come from the Netanyahu code book.

It astounds me that you have eyes but still don't seem able to see the destruction and murder being carried out against the Palestinians. Perhaps your TV can't get Amy Goodman.

We aren't quibbling. We are pointing out a fundamental difference: Terrorism targets those who have no combat ability. Resistance targets the opposing forces.

Only those who support terrorism pretend there isn't a difference.

Yes you are quibling and I am baffled as to what you hope to accomplish. It certainly can't be peace. Your statements all seem to support the military industrial complex. If you work in the arms business, I could understand your desire to see more weapons used and less diplomacy. That would be the source of your income. Could that be it?

Or are you a racist or a Zionist? You don't think the 60+ Palestinian children killed in this cycle of "cutting the grass" are just "junior terrorists" and "baby snakes" do you?

 

[untermensche]

Since Hamas was born out of oppression and they live under constant oppression, what they do is not really terrorism.

It is violent resistance to oppression. A very different thing. Not necessarily justified, but not terrorism.

1) They weren't born out of oppression. They were born out of the desire of radical Muslims to reconquer the land lost to the Jews.

The natural reaction to oppression is the desire to kill your oppressor.

Hamas is just the natural human reaction to oppression.

To call them terrorists is simply to be useful idiot of Israeli oppression and theft.

 

[untermensche]

What the above reveals is an ideology advocating the eradication of ALL Jews.

Yes it's a very militant document born out of severe oppression and brutality.

These are the kinds of things you see when people are severely oppressed. They want to wipe their oppressor from the earth.

But the reality is, several Hamas leaders have said that they have no problem with a 2 state solution that includes Israel.

Meshal says Hamas accepts a two-state solution

Hamas political leader in Damascus reportedly authorized King Abdullah of Jordan to convey his acceptance of two states for two peoples, based on the 1967 borders, to U.S. President Barack Obama.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/report-meshal-says-hamas-accepts-a-two-state-solution.premium-1.500390

PA official says Hamas accepted two-state solution

Wednesday's reconciliation agreement between Fatah and Hamas recognizes the existence of Israel and is based on the two-state model, says Jibril Rajoub.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.587047

If Israeli brutal oppression and theft stopped Hamas would become even more conciliatory.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

We aren't quibbling. We are pointing out a fundamental difference: Terrorism targets those who have no combat ability. Resistance targets the opposing forces.

Only those who support terrorism pretend there isn't a difference.

So you support terrorism. Good to know.

I was writing in English, not Sanskrit. Try reading what I wrote.

- - - Updated - - -

1) They weren't born out of oppression. They were born out of the desire of radical Muslims to reconquer the land lost to the Jews.

The natural reaction to oppression is the desire to kill your oppressor.

Hamas is just the natural human reaction to oppression.

To call them terrorists is simply to be useful idiot of Israeli oppression and theft.

You're not addressing the facts, making up justifications for <edit>

- - - Updated - - -

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/report-meshal-says-hamas-accepts-a-two-state-solution.premium-1.500390

PA official says Hamas accepted two-state solution

Haaretz isn't credible. They're much more interested in publishing anti-Israeli stuff, the articles can be corrected after they've done their damage.

 

[untermensche]

The natural reaction to oppression is the desire to kill your oppressor.

Hamas is just the natural human reaction to oppression.

To call them terrorists is simply to be useful idiot of Israeli oppression and theft.

You're not addressing the facts, making up justifications for <edit>.

Calling brutal oppressors brutal oppressors is not antisemitism.

I support a two-state solution.

You support continual Israeli oppression and theft.

 

[Underseer]

http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/en/article/20674

Plenty of "civilians" are found on the membership lists of terrorist organizations.

The real score is about equal between combatants and civilians, typical for Israeli attacks.

So as long as some of the dead are terrorists, we are morally justified in killing as many civilians as we want!

Cool!

So how many Israeli deaths are now justified? I mean, as long as some of those killed are genuinely members of the Israeli military or Israeli police, that means the Palestinians are justified in killing as many civilians as they want right? Then why did you get so upset about those rocket attacks? As long as some Israeli police or Israeli soldiers were killed in the attacks, there was nothing wrong with the attacks, and anyone who gets upset about it is clearly being irrational, right?

 

[Sabine Grant]

TFT Moderation Team.

 

[Sabine Grant]

TFT Moderation Team

 

[Loren Pechtel]

http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/en/article/20674

Plenty of "civilians" are found on the membership lists of terrorist organizations.

The real score is about equal between combatants and civilians, typical for Israeli attacks.

So as long as some of the dead are terrorists, we are morally justified in killing as many civilians as we want!

Cool!

So how many Israeli deaths are now justified? I mean, as long as some of those killed are genuinely members of the Israeli military or Israeli police, that means the Palestinians are justified in killing as many civilians as they want right? Then why did you get so upset about those rocket attacks? As long as some Israeli police or Israeli soldiers were killed in the attacks, there was nothing wrong with the attacks, and anyone who gets upset about it is clearly being irrational, right?

It's not a sporting event. Your attempted scorekeeping makes no sense.

 

[Nexus]

When I was 5 years old I learned from Darth Vader that you call your enemies terrorists. If your arguments require statements like this group is X and X equals emotionally charged words like terrorists, antisemites, or racists etc then you must have a weak arguments.