Split Gaza. Split From: Dem VP Pic: your choice?

[pood]

It is utterly idiotic to expect a small band of terrorists to commit genocide. It is quite plausible to expect a large modern army like Israel’s to commit genocide, which is what they are in fact doing.

30,000 isn't a "small band". And they have explicitly said they intend genocide.

And if Israel is committing genocide they are being remarkably incompetent about it.

A few scrawls of graffiti on a pedestal prove absolutely nothing about the motivation of a majority of the anti-Israel genocide protesters, or about the majority of demonstrators in the case of DC. If you’ve got evidence to back your claims, present it. If not, stow it.

They don't realize what would happen if they got what they wanted. Same as a bunch of Republicans who dismiss Project 2025 as extremist nonsense. They don't realize they are useful idiots for a group that makes Project 2025 look mild.

The New York Times estimates that the membership of Hamas is between 20,000 and 25,000. Incidentally, the Times reported that other day that Hamas is stronger than ever in Gaza 10 months into this atrocity of a war.

The active personnel of the Israeli army numbers 169,500. Its reservists number 465,000.

The population of Israel is just under 10 million.

There are an estimated 2.3 million people trapped in Gaza.

It is estimated that upwards of 40,000 people have died in Gaza since this war began. The rest are practically starving and living in execrable conditions.

I’ll let you do the math on who is capable of committing genocide against whom, and who is actually doing it.

Because now, Israel’s finance minister has come right out and said “it may be moral” to starve 2 million Gazans, “but no one in the world would let us.” He is practically admitting that but for the anti-Israeli genocide protesters you complain about, Israel would go ahead and completely eliminate the population of Gaza.

 

[Derec]

Be it Shapiro or another, stating you are for a two state solution while giving Netanyahu all he needs to destroy any chance at this or any resolution with Palestinians is hypocritical.

Destroying Hamas would improve the chances of a genuine two state solution in the long run.

There cannot be a two state solution at this time, as the Palestinians are not ready. West Bank would just become another Gaza - a launchpad for Tehran-directed genocidal attacks against Israel.
We need to give Israel tools not only to defend itself, but to defeat the enemy.

 

[pood]

Oh, and incidentally, Loren, the Israeli minister who would like to starve two million Gazans but says the world won’t let him do it does vow, however, that Gazans will receive no sanitation, welfare or education for the next two years at least, because he plans for Gaza to be a “war zone” at least that long.

 

[Derec]

Oh, and incidentally, Loren, the Israeli minister who would like to starve two million Gazans but says the world won’t let him do it does vow, however, that Gazans will receive no sanitation, welfare or education for the next two years at least, because he plans for Gaza to be a “war zone” at least that long.

There is an easy way for Gaza not to be a warzone for that long. Release of all hostages and an unconditional surrender by Hamas and allied terrorist groups.

However, since they are vassals of the Tehran regime, a regime change there will probably also be necessary as a practical matter. That would cut off the flow of money and weapons.

 

[Elixir]

And if Israel is committing genocide they are being remarkably incompetent about it.

I dunno. They’ve already massacred more Gazans than the 30k you describe as “not a small band”.
This includes 108 journalists (103 Palestinian, 2 Israeli and 3 Lebanese) and over 224 humanitarian aid workers, including 179 employees of UNRWA.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The New York Times estimates that the membership of Hamas is between 20,000 and 25,000. Incidentally, the Times reported that other day that Hamas is stronger than ever in Gaza 10 months into this atrocity of a war.

The Times is prone to bias in this matter. It's pretty hard to be a big news organization and not.

It is estimated that upwards of 40,000 people have died in Gaza since this war began. The rest are practically starving and living in execrable conditions.

Strangely the people in the areas that Israel has occupied are faring considerably better.

I’ll let you do the math on who is capable of committing genocide against whom, and who is actually doing it.

I think the side who actually is in control of the territory is more able to do it. And that's Hamas.

Because now, Israel’s finance minister has come right out and said “it may be moral” to starve 2 million Gazans, “but no one in the world would let us.” He is practically admitting that but for the anti-Israeli genocide protesters you complain about, Israel would go ahead and completely eliminate the population of Gaza.

That's how sieges work.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Be it Shapiro or another, stating you are for a two state solution while giving Netanyahu all he needs to destroy any chance at this or any resolution with Palestinians is hypocritical.

Destroying Hamas would improve the chances of a genuine two state solution in the long run.

There cannot be a two state solution at this time, as the Palestinians are not ready. West Bank would just become another Gaza - a launchpad for Tehran-directed genocidal attacks against Israel.
We need to give Israel tools not only to defend itself, but to defeat the enemy.

Hamas can't be defeated because their command and control and finances are outside Gaza.

All Israel can hope to do is destroy as much as they can of their infrastructure.

 

[pood]

The New York Times estimates that the membership of Hamas is between 20,000 and 25,000. Incidentally, the Times reported that other day that Hamas is stronger than ever in Gaza 10 months into this atrocity of a war.

The Times is prone to bias in this matter. It's pretty hard to be a big news organization and not.

Evidence? Right now it’s mere assertion. I worked as an editor at the Time and a considerable chunk of our time was checking and double-checking and triple-checking facts. This is not to say The Times doesn’t make mistakes — it does — but it promptly corrects them when discovered. Why should your figure be believed over that of The Times? What is the source of it?

It is estimated that upwards of 40,000 people have died in Gaza since this war began. The rest are practically starving and living in execrable conditions.

Strangely the people in the areas that Israel has occupied are faring considerably better.

Evidence?

I’ll let you do the math on who is capable of committing genocide against whom, and who is actually doing it.

I think the side who actually is in control of the territory is more able to do it. And that's Hamas.

Hamas is in control of Israeli territory and is committing genocide against Israelis?

Because now, Israel’s finance minister has come right out and said “it may be moral” to starve 2 million Gazans, “but no one in the world would let us.” He is practically admitting that but for the anti-Israeli genocide protesters you complain about, Israel would go ahead and completely eliminate the population of Gaza.

That's how sieges work.

That’s how sieges work? You mean like the siege of Leningrad in World War II, where huge numbers of people starved? Are you actually saying you approve of starving two million Gazans, because “that’s how sieges work”? Perhaps I’ve misunderstood something, I earnestly hope?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There is an easy way for Gaza not to be a warzone for that long. Release of all hostages and an unconditional surrender by Hamas and allied terrorist groups.

However, since they are vassals of the Tehran regime, a regime change there will probably also be necessary as a practical matter. That would cut off the flow of money and weapons.

I would not be surprised if "release all the hostages" is impossible at this point. Remember, we have 5 bodies recently found because Israel captured the people who knew where they put the bodies. The whole operation involved an awful lot of chaos and Israel has probably killed half of them. The knowledge of where the bodies are might be gone.

A regime change would do nothing, though--the money and weapons will flow to whoever will take up arms. All Israel can do is make them spend time rebuilding.

 

[Arctish]

The New York Times estimates that the membership of Hamas is between 20,000 and 25,000. Incidentally, the Times reported that other day that Hamas is stronger than ever in Gaza 10 months into this atrocity of a war.

The Times is prone to bias in this matter. It's pretty hard to be a big news organization and not.

It is estimated that upwards of 40,000 people have died in Gaza since this war began. The rest are practically starving and living in execrable conditions.

Strangely the people in the areas that Israel has occupied are faring considerably better.

I’ll let you do the math on who is capable of committing genocide against whom, and who is actually doing it.

I think the side who actually is in control of the territory is more able to do it. And that's Hamas.

Because now, Israel’s finance minister has come right out and said “it may be moral” to starve 2 million Gazans, “but no one in the world would let us.” He is practically admitting that but for the anti-Israeli genocide protesters you complain about, Israel would go ahead and completely eliminate the population of Gaza.

That's how sieges work.

Wrong thread, guys.

 

[pood]

Wrong thread, guys.

I agree this is the wrong thread, but would add for the time being that there are numerous reports detailing how Israel is deliberately and systematically depriving Gazans of food and water. The minister I quoted just came right out and blurted Israel’s aim, which is basically to starve two million people in Gaza if they can get away with it. Israel without question is committing war crimes and outright genocide in the Gaza Strip.

 

[Arctish]

Wrong thread, guys.

I agree this is the wrong thread, but would add for the time being that there are numerous reports detailing how Israel is deliberately and systematically depriving Gazans of food and water. The minister I quoted just came right out and blurted Israel’s aim, which is basically to starve two million people in Gaza if they can get away with it. Israel without question is committing war crimes and outright genocide in the Gaza Strip.

The minister is Bezalel Smotrich, the same guy who stood at the podium adorned with the image of all of Gaza, the West Bank, and Jordan being part of Israel.

The same guy who wanted maternity wards in hospitals segregated by race/religion, wants to ban mixed marriages, defends builders who refuse to sell houses to non-Jewish Israelis, and said that calling the Duma arson attack 'terrorism' causes "mortal and unjustified harm to human and civil rights".

Just to be clear: he said calling the firebombing terrorism was the harm to human and civil rights, not the firebombing itself, or the resulting deaths of a baby and his parents, or the terrible injuries the preschool survivor suffered.

 

[laughing dog]

And why are they “nutburgers”? Because they are queer?

No, because they are on the side of terrorists who would kill them for being queer.

Don’t you right-wingers ever tire of this obvious gutter smear?

It's an unpleasant reality.

But it doesn’t have to be - just stop the gutter smearing. After all, it’s not required.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And if Israel is committing genocide they are being remarkably incompetent about it.

I dunno. They’ve already massacred more Gazans than the 30k you describe as “not a small band”.
This includes 108 journalists (103 Palestinian, 2 Israeli and 3 Lebanese) and over 224 humanitarian aid workers, including 179 employees of UNRWA.

You mean "journalists" like Israel recently found listed in a Hamas database of members?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The New York Times estimates that the membership of Hamas is between 20,000 and 25,000. Incidentally, the Times reported that other day that Hamas is stronger than ever in Gaza 10 months into this atrocity of a war.

The Times is prone to bias in this matter. It's pretty hard to be a big news organization and not.

Evidence? Right now it’s mere assertion. I worked as an editor at the Time and a considerable chunk of our time was checking and double-checking and triple-checking facts. This is not to say The Times doesn’t make mistakes — it does — but it promptly corrects them when discovered. Why should your figure be believed over that of The Times? What is the source of it?

I think the Times is honest when it comes to known facts. The problem comes from the grey areas--like how many members Hamas has. Nobody who knows is talking, all we have are estimates. You can't fact-check something like that, you can only decide whose estimates to listen to.

And the reality is that there are about 100x as many Muslims as Jews in the world. People tend to read news sources they agree with which makes a huge pressure to sit on the Muslim side of the grey area. A reputable news agency will generally not go beyond the grey, but nobody sits in the middle of it. (I say generally because even reputable news sources are prone to bowing to the pressure of being denied access.)

I’ll let you do the math on who is capable of committing genocide against whom, and who is actually doing it.

I think the side who actually is in control of the territory is more able to do it. And that's Hamas.

Hamas is in control of Israeli territory and is committing genocide against Israelis?

Hamas is in control of much of Gaza. And they're the ones killing civilians by putting them in harm's way.

Because now, Israel’s finance minister has come right out and said “it may be moral” to starve 2 million Gazans, “but no one in the world would let us.” He is practically admitting that but for the anti-Israeli genocide protesters you complain about, Israel would go ahead and completely eliminate the population of Gaza.

That's how sieges work.

That’s how sieges work? You mean like the siege of Leningrad in World War II, where huge numbers of people starved? Are you actually saying you approve of starving two million Gazans, because “that’s how sieges work”? Perhaps I’ve misunderstood something, I earnestly hope?

What should happen is that the sieged area surrenders.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And why are they “nutburgers”? Because they are queer?

No, because they are on the side of terrorists who would kill them for being queer.

Don’t you right-wingers ever tire of this obvious gutter smear?

It's an unpleasant reality.

But it doesn’t have to be - just stop the gutter smearing. After all, it’s not required.

What are you trying to say here? If you're going to object to "queer" as a smear address it to pood. I simply used the same word that he did.

I think the chickens for KFC comparison is quite apt.

 

[Gospel]

How do you think US would react if the equivalent of 10/7 happened to us?

Invent reasons to justify the deaths of over 200,000 innocent people and destabilize an entire region? You're right, the U.S. has done the same.

 

[Gospel]

Oh, and incidentally, Loren, the Israeli minister who would like to starve two million Gazans but says the world won’t let him do it does vow, however, that Gazans will receive no sanitation, welfare or education for the next two years at least, because he plans for Gaza to be a “war zone” at least that long.

There is an easy way for Gaza not to be a warzone for that long. Release of all hostages and an unconditional surrender by Hamas and allied terrorist groups.

However, since they are vassals of the Tehran regime, a regime change there will probably also be necessary as a practical matter. That would cut off the flow of money and weapons.

So let me get this straight: The U.S. went to a rugged and mountainous landscape on the other side of the planet, and in two months successfully removed the Taliban from power, and managed to keep civilian casualties relatively low. Yet, Israel can't occupy a flatland right next door facing a similar number of combatants and keep civilian causalities low while winning the hearts of the people like the US (for the most part) did in Afghanistan?

 

[Gospel]

While many Afghans opposed the U.S. withdrawal, every single Palestinian is desperately awaiting the day Israel leaves. I wonder what is causing this discrepancy.

 

[Harry Bosch]

While many Afghans opposed the U.S. withdrawal, every single Palestinian is desperately awaiting the day Israel leaves. I wonder what is causing this discrepancy.

You make some great points. But to me the difference is that Palestinians are united that they hate Israel. A majority of Afghans hate the US and the west (taliban). A minority of the Afghans, a different tribe, hate the Taliban. Enemy of my enemy is my friend. The Pastoon (sp?) hate the taliban, and they aligned with the US.