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god and objective moral standards

It has been argued if god does not exist then objective moral standards do not exist.

I don't argue that.
I'm just waiting for folks who say otherwise to put up a better alternative than God.

God is objective in that His laws are transcendent. They benefit us not Him. So He can be an impartial umpire of the rules.

God is objective in that He can enforce His moral laws. Whereas non-objective laws (based on subjective opinions about morality) are only as good as the imprimatur of whoever can enforce them. A law which cannot be enforced or isn't enforced can hardly even be called 'a law' - let alone an objective law.

Gods moral law is objective in that He alone is deemed to be omniscient. So He can know that His law is the highest possible objective 'good' - and when obeyed, results in maximal happiness. How can the blind lead the blind in any search for objective morals? How can two diametrically opposite moral claims be resolved without an all seeing transcendent umpire?

The argument that God(pick a God, any God, is the source of a moral code, is a simple appeal to authority. It reduces social responsibility to the universal parental, "Because I said so." A parent knows a toddler lacks the mental wherewithal to process moral philosophy, so "Because I said so," is sufficient information, at least for the moment. The ultimate question of life, the universe, and everything turns out to be, "Why should I?" and "Because I said so," falls so very short of an answer for real problems.

After we've picked our God(let's make it a well documented one, just because it's easier) I think we can easily demonstrate there is nothing objective about the established rules. Certainly not when it comes to stoning people for various sins.

The problem of a moral code is always in the fine print. We all understand that it is wrong to kill someone, in the general sense, but as soon as we get to specifics, it gets complicated. It turns out, no matter how sacred life may be, as a concept, there's a hundred exceptions about when it's perfectly okay to smash someone's skull. God won't mind one bit.

Even when we can all(mostly all) agree on something, times change and our old rule doesn't work as it once did. It turns out, the list of people who can be stoned to death, gets shorter every millennium, or so.

The bullet points of any moral code, for any culture or society are pretty easy to understand. It's the footnotes that get complicated.
 
It has been argued if god does not exist then objective moral standards do not exist.

I don't argue that.
I'm just waiting for folks who say otherwise to put up a better alternative than God.

How about an equally good alternative? I have a hypothetical neighbor kid named Timmy. I'll put him up against your god.



God is objective in that His laws are transcendent.

That's like saying sandpaper is purple because it's rough. The one doesn't have to do with the other.



They benefit us not Him. So He can be an impartial umpire of the rules.

If they're supposed to be for our benefit, I'm sure Timmy could do a better job.



God is objective in that He can enforce His moral laws. Whereas non-objective laws (based on subjective opinions about morality) are only as good as the imprimatur of whoever can enforce them. A law which cannot be enforced or isn't enforced can hardly even be called 'a law' - let alone an objective law.

So, if you don't rape or kill because you are afraid of punishment you are being moral?

Were the guards at Auschwitz being moral because they followed orders?



Gods moral law is objective in that He alone is deemed to be omniscient.

He doesn't act omniscient in the stories of the Christians. And what would that have to do with it anyway? Are you going for the signpost god theory? God doesn't create morality? Rather, morality exists independent of god, and god is just good at figuring out what the rules are, and at reporting them to us?

So your position is that if Timmy figures out the natural moral rules, his rules is every bit as every bit as objective as those of your god?

Is that really your position? Objective morality is a natural fact regardless of whether gods exist, and your god is a moral authority only to the extent that he knows what those rules are?



So He can know that His law is the highest possible objective 'good' - and when obeyed, results in maximal happiness.

Hey, I'm a utilitarian too! But if maximal happiness is the goal of objective morality, you can have that goal without any gods at all. You can have objective morality without gods.



How can the blind lead the blind in any search for objective morals? How can two diametrically opposite moral claims be resolved without an all seeing transcendent umpire?

View attachment 10032

Given that your allegedly existent, allegedly all-seeing, allegedly transcendent, alleged umpire is one of those making the opposed claims, he hardly seems disinterested.

I could make an argument exactly as strong as yours by claiming that Timmy should judge between the claims of Jehovah and Allah.
 
Timmy sounds like a copy of God.
In that case, yes. Timmy is a potential candidate for objective moral arbiter.
...for all the same reasons I gave.
 
Timmy sounds like a copy of God.
Well, both are purely fictional. You might be on to something there.
In that case, yes. Timmy is a potential candidate for objective moral arbiter.
...for all the same reasons I gave.
You seem to be less concerned by the fact that your objective moral arbiter is indestinguishable from a hastily cobbled together fiction than most people would be.

I guess that's why you are a theist.
 
FWIW objectivity is probably an illusion, a myth. At best, objectivity and objective moral standards are just shared subjective standards and experiences. People looking for objective morality are just looking for people who share their subjective take on morals. But that's okay.

This just means that the imagined pronouncements of invisible magic spacemen aren't even necessary, let alone existent.
 
LOL
I love how atheology solves problems by saying "it's just an illusion".

Free will - illusion
Design - illusion
Objective morality - illusion
God - illusion
 
LOL
I love how atheology solves problems by saying "it's just an illusion".

Free will - illusion
Design - illusion
Objective morality - illusion
God - illusion


And just how do we get this absolute God-given morality? From the Bible? Why not the Quran or other supposed revelation. The Bible does not anywhere in it condemn pedophilia or rape. No of the supposed revelations really have a truly comprehensive moral absolute laid out that is truly comprehensive.

And the God of the Bible is not in any way, shape or form truly fair, just, merciful of compassionate. A god that chooses a few at random as elect and lets the others go to hell. God then is ammoral.

If morality is truly absolute, then that absolute morality is binding on God Or else it cannot be absolute.
 
LOL
I love how atheology solves problems by saying "it's just an illusion".

Free will - illusion
Design - illusion
Objective morality - illusion
God - illusion


And just how do we get this absolute God-given morality? From the Bible? Why not the Quran or other supposed revelation. The Bible does not anywhere in it condemn pedophilia or rape. No of the supposed revelations really have a truly comprehensive moral absolute laid out that is truly comprehensive.

And the God of the Bible is not in any way, shape or form truly fair, just, merciful of compassionate. A god that chooses a few at random as elect and lets the others go to hell. God then is ammoral.

If morality is truly absolute, then that absolute morality is binding on God Or else it cannot be absolute.
Think about it. Someone can be convinced that an invisible spaceman drowns babies and destroys cities, but remains the font of all that is good and decent in the world. We're quite obviously not talking rational here.
 
Spaceman destroying baby mosquitos.
Evil, wicked spaceman.

DSC02314.jpg
 
And just how do we get this absolute God-given morality? From the Bible? Why not the Quran or other supposed revelation. The Bible does not anywhere in it condemn pedophilia or rape. No of the supposed revelations really have a truly comprehensive moral absolute laid out that is truly comprehensive.

And the God of the Bible is not in any way, shape or form truly fair, just, merciful of compassionate. A god that chooses a few at random as elect and lets the others go to hell. God then is ammoral.

If morality is truly absolute, then that absolute morality is binding on God Or else it cannot be absolute.
Think about it. Someone can be convinced that an invisible spaceman drowns babies and destroys cities, but remains the font of all that is good and decent in the world. We're quite obviously not talking rational here.

Just because God didn't do things the way you would have is not evidence of nonexistence, and whether humans are rational or not, is irrelevant to the discussion.
 
Timmy sounds like a copy of God.

Then everybody sounds like god.



In that case, yes. Timmy is a potential candidate for objective moral arbiter.
...for all the same reasons I gave.

Then anybody can be an objective moral arbiter. We don't need gods for that.
 
Think about it. Someone can be convinced that an invisible spaceman drowns babies and destroys cities, but remains the font of all that is good and decent in the world. We're quite obviously not talking rational here.

Just because God didn't do things the way you would have is not evidence of nonexistence, and whether humans are rational or not, is irrelevant to the discussion.

If God supposedly does things that are amoral, immoral or evil that is evidence that God who is proclaimed to be morally perfect does not in fact exist.

One cannot argue God is both X and not X. So yes, it is relevant to the discussion. If God is presented as a concept that is incoherent and self contradictory, that is a good reason to reject that hypothetical God.
 
Just because God didn't do things the way you would have is not evidence of nonexistence, and whether humans are rational or not, is irrelevant to the discussion.

If God supposedly does things that are amoral, immoral or evil that is evidence that God who is proclaimed to be morally perfect does not in fact exist.

One cannot argue God is both X and not X. So yes, it is relevant to the discussion. If God is presented as a concept that is incoherent and self contradictory, that is a good reason to reject that hypothetical God.
Right. It's ontology. Gods can't do things if gods aren't real.

Rational for me is doing what is in a family's interest, real flesh and blood undertakings. If a person doesn't have a nuclear family they certainly have friends that are part of a larger human family. Shouldn't this family be more important than gods?

If a god is more important than a family then what you have is an addiction. Addictions cause people to neglect important things, like families. Is that rational?
 
Just because God didn't do things the way you would have is not evidence of nonexistence, and whether humans are rational or not, is irrelevant to the discussion.

If God supposedly does things that are amoral, immoral or evil that is evidence that God who is proclaimed to be morally perfect does not in fact exist.

One cannot argue God is both X and not X. So yes, it is relevant to the discussion. If God is presented as a concept that is incoherent and self contradictory, that is a good reason to reject that hypothetical God.

It's not that complicated. If God does things that are amoral, immoral or evil, that is evidence that humans who proclaim God to be morally perfect are mistaken.

If there is a God, omnipotent and all present, creator of the universe, what any particular human observes or believes about his/her/its nature, is irrelevant.

One certainly can argue God is both X and not X. I've seen it done. If the concept of an omnipotent God is accepted(if only for the sake of discussion), such an entity would embody many things which appear contradictory to a human mind. It's hard enough to imagine a being who is in all points in the universe, at all points in time, simultaneously. If you can get past that, the idea he might be both good and bad, is a fairly small leap.
 
If God supposedly does things that are amoral, immoral or evil that is evidence that God who is proclaimed to be morally perfect does not in fact exist.

One cannot argue God is both X and not X. So yes, it is relevant to the discussion. If God is presented as a concept that is incoherent and self contradictory, that is a good reason to reject that hypothetical God.
Right. It's ontology. Gods can't do things if gods aren't real.

Rational for me is doing what is in a family's interest, real flesh and blood undertakings. If a person doesn't have a nuclear family they certainly have friends that are part of a larger human family. Shouldn't this family be more important than gods?

If a god is more important than a family then what you have is an addiction. Addictions cause people to neglect important things, like families. Is that rational?

Has any person ever committed a conscious action which was not rational within their own mind? People commit suicide all the time, and we have to believe their reasons at the time were sufficient.

While there will always be some overlap and agreement, what's rational for you is rational for you, is rational only within your mind. You are free to use your rational mind to judge other people's decisions and actions, and create priorities. You can put real flesh and blood, nuclear family member, and friends, in any order which pleases you.

For example, if you believe that after death, there is an eternity to spend in a body-less conscious state, which is either bliss or horror, depending upon how you behaved during your incredibly minuscule time on Earth, a lot of fuss about earthly comforts would be an irrational act. While one person worries about clothing and feeding their family, another worries about their ultimate placement in either Heaven or Hell.

I imagine it would be tough to see one's children alongside one in Hell and the only comfort one might offer was memories of their first Iphone.
 
Right. It's ontology. Gods can't do things if gods aren't real.

Rational for me is doing what is in a family's interest, real flesh and blood undertakings. If a person doesn't have a nuclear family they certainly have friends that are part of a larger human family. Shouldn't this family be more important than gods?

If a god is more important than a family then what you have is an addiction. Addictions cause people to neglect important things, like families. Is that rational?

Has any person ever committed a conscious action which was not rational within their own mind? People commit suicide all the time, and we have to believe their reasons at the time were sufficient.

While there will always be some overlap and agreement, what's rational for you is rational for you, is rational only within your mind. You are free to use your rational mind to judge other people's decisions and actions, and create priorities. You can put real flesh and blood, nuclear family member, and friends, in any order which pleases you.

For example, if you believe that after death, there is an eternity to spend in a body-less conscious state, which is either bliss or horror, depending upon how you behaved during your incredibly minuscule time on Earth, a lot of fuss about earthly comforts would be an irrational act. While one person worries about clothing and feeding their family, another worries about their ultimate placement in either Heaven or Hell.

I imagine it would be tough to see one's children alongside one in Hell and the only comfort one might offer was memories of their first Iphone.
Suicide can be rational or irrational. Someone who takes their own life because they are in great pain and cannot find relief is certainly acting rationally. Someone who believes he is Superman and leaps from a cliff to fly off into space is not rational. A soldier can decide to take his or her own life to save comrades, rational. A soldier can detonate himself among friends to kill them because he is paranoid, not rational.

Blue doesn't become green just because I think it is. I am not 7 feet tall simply because I think I am. There are certainly grey areas when it comes to rational, same as blue and green fade into each other.

Belief in magic spacemen is rational only based on what you do with the belief and how it affects other people. It isn't rational simply because one thinks it's rational.

When I used to coach an incident occurred with one of my 8-year old players. He climbed a tree and jumped to the ground with an umbrella because he saw it on T.V. That was the end of his season - due to injury. Was the kid acting rationally?
 
If God supposedly does things that are amoral, immoral or evil that is evidence that God who is proclaimed to be morally perfect does not in fact exist.

One cannot argue God is both X and not X. So yes, it is relevant to the discussion. If God is presented as a concept that is incoherent and self contradictory, that is a good reason to reject that hypothetical God.

It's not that complicated. If God does things that are amoral, immoral or evil, that is evidence that humans who proclaim God to be morally perfect are mistaken.

If there is a God, omnipotent and all present, creator of the universe, what any particular human observes or believes about his/her/its nature, is irrelevant.

One certainly can argue God is both X and not X. I've seen it done. If the concept of an omnipotent God is accepted(if only for the sake of discussion), such an entity would embody many things which appear contradictory to a human mind. It's hard enough to imagine a being who is in all points in the universe, at all points in time, simultaneously. If you can get past that, the idea he might be both good and bad, is a fairly small leap.


The problem is major religions proclaim God is morally perfect according to revelations from that God. But the revelations also proclaim God does things that are not good or moral.

That God cannot then exist and revelation cannot be correct. But the existence of God then, disconnected from revelation is impossible to prove. And then we have an exercise in defining God so that God so defined matches a Universe that demonstrates no God at all. And still gets involved in self contradictions and logical problems. A prime exhibit here would be process Theology, designed to try to get around the problems of the omni-everything creator God.

Now that we have driven theology from it's popular revelations, all that is left is bare assertions. And God Of The Gaps.
 
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