"God cannot create a square circle"

[Rhea]

This is ON YOU.

Ah, but you see, the Bible says that we have no excuse to not believe, therefore there's no reason for him to explain anything! Clearly, everything is completely obvious and we just need to accept it.

Good point. Though one wonders, if the answer, "goddidit" is enough, why even write a bible? I mean, the whole thing is moot, right?

 

[rhutchin]

Why would I need to prove the negative that an uproven conjecture (god) cannot create a logical contradiction?

What...are you saying the coffee cup on my desk may well be a square circle? The pen? The kleenex box? That a magical creature may be creating square circles all over the place, but we just don't recognize them? What are you saying? Do you even know? I don't think so. You're just throwing out little snipes that sound clever to you. But they're not clever.

Seems that we have a problem of definition. Having never seen a square circle, you cannot describe what it looks like and would not know it if you saw it. Just because you cannot describe it does not mean that God cannot make it.

So then my coffee cup could well be a square circle. Or your carkeys could be a square circle.

Yes, rhutchin, that's the sort of screwball nonsense you're spouting here.

Not really. Your coffee cup is a coffee cup. Your car keys are car keys. You have yet to define a square circle because, unlike your coffee cup and your car keys, you have never seen a square circle. You have no idea what one would look like. So, until God makes a square circle, you cannot know what it is.

 

[rhutchin]

rhutchin\, here is a citation. Please read it. Comment on the specifics.

The Impossible Voyage of Noah's Ark

The failure of the effort.
It has by now become abundantly clear that the case for the ark utterly and completely fails. Despite the clever ingenuity of its proponents, nothing, from the trickiest problems to the tiniest details, can be salvaged without an unending resort to the supernatural. This includes so many pointless prodigies, so many inane interventions for no reason other than to save a literalistic Bible, that religion itself is cheapened in the process, not to mention the total abandonment of any semblance of science. No doubt in days to come some erstwhile arkeologists will concoct "solutions" to some of the difficulties we have raised, but no intellectually honest person can any longer pretend that the legend of Noah can possibly represent a historical occurrence.

This is an opinion piece. It asks questions as if our ignorance of events several thousand years ago proves something.

Examples"

"Obviously, the astronomical leap in size, safety, and skill required by Noah is far too vast for any naturalistic explanation." Nice opinion, but it only speaks to our ignorance of Noah's knowledge.

"Yet Noah's primary contribution to humanity, his incredible knowledge of naval engineering, vanished without a trace, and the seafarers returned to their hollow logs and reed rafts. Like a passing mirage, the ark was here one day and gone the next, leaving not a ripple in the long saga of shipbuilding." OK. That seems to be what happened. Why is that a problem?

"The various requirements of the myriads of animals had to be taken into account in the design of their quarters, especially considering the length of the voyage. The problems are legion:..." Are the problems identified really at issue? We simply do not have the information to evaluate the author's claims. The author's conclusion, "Even today the transport requirements of many species are not fully known, and it would be physically impossible to design a single carrier to meet them all." That's an opinion.

"If we conservatively allow all of these requirements to consume 30 percent of the space, this leaves 1,063,125 cubic feet to be divided among the nearly 4 million animals, resulting in a mere 0.275 cubic foot per individual! No arrangement of cages, however ingenious, no high-density packing of minute invertebrates, could squeeze everyone into this amount of room." Is the 4 million figure accurate? We simply do not know.

There is not really much in terms of specifics in the article. The author describes ship building practices, animal care, genetics, etc. and then forms opinions about the ark based on this. So, there are difficulties involved in trying to determine all the details missing from the Biblical account of the ark and the flood. However, this reflects our ignorance of past events. I don't think anyone has figured out how people constructed Stonehenge [According to Wikipedia, "Stonehenge was produced by a culture that left no written records. Many aspects of Stonehenge remain subject to debate. This multiplicity of theories, some of them very colorful, are often called the "mystery of Stonehenge".[citation needed] A number of myths surround the stones.[21] There is little or no direct evidence for the construction techniques used by the Stonehenge builders."] The author in this article argues that we don't have written records describing all the details of the ark and there is no direct evidence for the construction techniques used by Noah, etc.

The article was written in 1983. Since then, creationists have looked into the issues raised in the article. The most notable is "Noah's Ark: A Feasibility Study," published in 1996. The 1983 article needs to be updated to take into account the greater information that has been developed. However, after all the speculation about the ark, we simply don't know what really happened beyond what we read in the Bible. However, our ignorance of the details does not invalidate the Biblical account.

 

[Mageth]

Why would I need to prove the negative that an uproven conjecture (god) cannot create a logical contradiction?

What...are you saying the coffee cup on my desk may well be a square circle? The pen? The kleenex box? That a magical creature may be creating square circles all over the place, but we just don't recognize them? What are you saying? Do you even know? I don't think so. You're just throwing out little snipes that sound clever to you. But they're not clever.

Seems that we have a problem of definition. Having never seen a square circle, you cannot describe what it looks like and would not know it if you saw it. Just because you cannot describe it does not mean that God cannot make it.

So then my coffee cup could well be a square circle. Or your carkeys could be a square circle.

Yes, rhutchin, that's the sort of screwball nonsense you're spouting here.

Not really. Your coffee cup is a coffee cup. Your car keys are car keys.

And a square is a square, and a circle is a circle! Thank you, rhutchin! Think about that before you continue this nonsense line of argument!

You have yet to define a square circle because, unlike your coffee cup and your car keys, you have never seen a square circle.

I have seen a square and a circle. And if a square circle is possible in your magic world, then a square circle coffee cup should be as well.

But if a coffee cup is a coffee cup and car keys are car keys in your world, then a square is a square, and a circle is a circle.

Choose which side of the Looking Glass you want to be on, rhutchin!

You have no idea what one would look like.

So as far as we know, one might look like a coffee cup or car keys.

So, until God makes a square circle, you cannot know what it is.

Maybe he did, and it's a coffee cup!

You apparently believe magic god can make a square circle. And you argue that i can't prove he can't because I don't know what one looks like.

And then you argue that god can't make a square circle that looks like a coffee cup. That would be silly! A coffee cup is a coffee cup! (And a circle is a circle, rhutchin!)

And how do you know god doesn't make square circles that look like coffee cups. And why are you arguing against god's omnipotence when attempting to defend his omnipotence?

 

[Rhea]

rhutchin\, here is a citation. Please read it. Comment on the specifics.

The Impossible Voyage of Noah's Ark

This is an opinion piece. It asks questions as if our ignorance of events several thousand years ago proves something.

Here is the bibiolography for this piece. Opinion pieces do not cite references.

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- page 40 -
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About the Author(s):
Robert Moore, a writer on religious subjects, has tested at hearings on church-state issues and is an experienced mountain climber (with no intention of joining any ark expedition).
Copyright © 1983 by Robert A. Moore
This version might differ slightly from the print publication.

 

[Rhea]

"Obviously, the astronomical leap in size, safety, and skill required by Noah is far too vast for any naturalistic explanation." Nice opinion, but it only speaks to our ignorance of Noah's knowledge.

Which speaks to the incredible claim of one person doing this. Incredible claims demand incredible evidence.

Bear in mind, throughout this, that you claims that "goddidit" and how magically your god can manipulate things like giving one bronzeage person knowledge in engineering that he uses once and never once uses again in hundreds of years nor teaches to any of his children or grandchildren, is part of what makes all god claims so stupidly ridiculous. The proof is that in almost all instances in human history, when something incredible is accomplished, it is copied and improved upon not long after.

"Yet Noah's primary contribution to humanity, his incredible knowledge of naval engineering, vanished without a trace, and the seafarers returned to their hollow logs and reed rafts. Like a passing mirage, the ark was here one day and gone the next, leaving not a ripple in the long saga of shipbuilding." OK. That seems to be what happened. Why is that a problem?

You claim god can do this one UNBELIEVABLE THING! And then you prevaricate that god cannot do some other thing, like turn rapists to pillars of salt instantly upon their decision to act on their crime, because, well, can't. Don't think people aren't noticing that. It's hilarious.

"The various requirements of the myriads of animals had to be taken into account in the design of their quarters, especially considering the length of the voyage. The problems are legion:..." Are the problems identified really at issue? We simply do not have the information to evaluate the author's claims. The author's conclusion, "Even today the transport requirements of many species are not fully known, and it would be physically impossible to design a single carrier to meet them all." That's an opinion.

No, he backs it up with citations. This is your problem to prove. You have to start by first NAMING THE ANIMALS YOU THINK ARE ON THE ARK, which, yes, we all noticed you have skipped doing, again. Because the moment you name them, we can start these calculations for realz.

And that's why neither you nor any other creationist in the 4 corners of the flat earth will ever name them - it subjects your claim to actual scientific calculations that you KNOW your claim cannot withstand.

Prove me wrong. Show me a citation from any creationist who is brave enough to actually list the manifest of that boat so we can do the math.

"If we conservatively allow all of these requirements to consume 30 percent of the space, this leaves 1,063,125 cubic feet to be divided among the nearly 4 million animals, resulting in a mere 0.275 cubic foot per individual! No arrangement of cages, however ingenious, no high-density packing of minute invertebrates, could squeeze everyone into this amount of room." Is the 4 million figure accurate? We simply do not know.

There is not really much in terms of specifics in the article. The author describes ship building practices, animal care, genetics, etc. and then forms opinions about the ark based on this. So, there are difficulties involved in trying to determine all the details missing from the Biblical account of the ark and the flood. However, this reflects our ignorance of past events.

There's a lot cited in the article. All of those details are YOURS TO PROVE that you can overcome them. If you cannot, then science has debunked your fairy tale.

Prove that you can pen these animals without them dying.
Start by naming the animals we will study.

I don't think anyone has figured out how people constructed Stonehenge [According to Wikipedia, "Stonehenge was produced by a culture that left no written records. Many aspects of Stonehenge remain subject to debate. This multiplicity of theories, some of them very colorful, are often called the "mystery of Stonehenge".[citation needed] A number of myths surround the stones.[21] There is little or no direct evidence for the construction techniques used by the Stonehenge builders."] The author in this article argues that we don't have written records describing all the details of the ark and there is no direct evidence for the construction techniques used by Noah, etc.

Not a good example. While we may not know how they brought the stones, we know that they did. We know what strength problems they had and we know they are not the only ones to have done it.

The article was written in 1983. Since then, creationists have looked into the issues raised in the article. The most notable is "Noah's Ark: A Feasibility Study," published in 1996. The 1983 article needs to be updated to take into account the greater information that has been developed. However, after all the speculation about the ark, we simply don't know what really happened beyond what we read in the Bible. However, our ignorance of the details does not invalidate the Biblical account.

The flood supposedly happened in 2000BC. You STILL don't have a ship's manifest? Your bible needs to be updated.

Remember, until you provide a list or a citation for a list of what animals we're talking about, you are avoiding the proof. And yes, we know why. Because you know deep down in your brain stem that science DOES prove that the flood is a fairy tale and never happened.

 

[atrib]

atrib;

Wrong again! We don't have faith that natural processes caused the diversity of life we observe on this planet. We KNOW what these natural processes and mechanisms are and can describe them in great detail. This is called science. The science that specifically deals with the mechanisms that caused the diversity of life on this planet is called evolutionary biology. We know a lot of stuff that the authors of the Bible did not know. You should try to keep up, especially if you are going to be debating on an online forum

I have not come across the great detail, that describes how the eye, or a full skeletal system evolved, the papers tend to use words like assume, possible, may have, lack of evidence, etc.

Where have you looked? What textbooks and papers have you read? What specific topics did you find lacking in the material that you studied? Please be specific.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Even if there were attempts to describe it (which there are) it wouldn't matter and it would be dismissed anyway, so I'm not sure why Eric brought it up in the first place.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

...certain beliefs that science shows to be counter-factual. All the rest of it is A-Okay with them.

What Biblical beliefs has science shown to be counter-factual?

For one, the first woman wasn't fashioned from a rib taken from a man.

The bible clearly states that men are made from dirt and women are made from ribs. That explains why women taste so much better than men.

 

[rhutchin]

rhutchin\, here is a citation. Please read it. Comment on the specifics.

The Impossible Voyage of Noah's Ark

This is an opinion piece. It asks questions as if our ignorance of events several thousand years ago proves something.

Here is the bibiolography for this piece. Opinion pieces do not cite references.

Bibliography
Ancil, Ralph E. September 1980. "A Proposal for a New Creationist Discipline." Creation Research Society Quarterly. 17:2:123-127.

Andrewartha, H. G. 1971. Introduction to the Study of Animal Populations. Second edition. Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

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About the Author(s):
Robert Moore, a writer on religious subjects, has tested at hearings on church-state issues and is an experienced mountain climber (with no intention of joining any ark expedition).
Copyright © 1983 by Robert A. Moore
This version might differ slightly from the print publication.

Nothing prevents a person writing an article to bone up on the subject matter by consulting many references. The problem here is that there is not a lot of information available about the flood, and this allows the author to opine on what he thinks about the missing information. In the end, this is an opinion piece. It relies on the lack of information about events several thousand years ago to create conclusions that prove something.

 

[Elixir]

The problem here is that there is not a lot of information available about the flood...

Yeah, that is a recurrent problem with references to fictional things and events.

 

[Rhea]

(you didn't need to quote all that stuff if you're not going to reference it. Do the page a favor and edit your post to include only the part you are actually talking about in your reply.)

Nothing prevents a person writing an article to bone up on the subject matter by consulting many references. The problem here is that there is not a lot of information available about the flood, and this allows the author to opine on what he thinks about the missing information. In the end, this is an opinion piece. It relies on the lack of information about events several thousand years ago to create conclusions that prove something.

It doesn't "allow" the author, it requires the author, any author, including you, to take note of the mjissing information and consider the implications.

In this author's case, he is studying what things would look like if we filled in the missing information with realistic reality-based truthful observations about the world.

In your case, you don't appear to care how full of holes the story is because no matter how stupid and foolish it is, you intend to believe it. That author showed you just how foolish it is (monumentally) to take a sip from a glass put in front of you with liquid that has very obvious impurities and dangers all the while deciding to not even look because you don't want to hear any bad news about it because you like the waiter who served it to you.

You won't even notice the flaws and holes in the flood story. This author checks them out and compares them to reality. That's not "opinion", that research. And just the bare start to what you, believer, should be doing.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

This is an opinion piece. It asks questions as if our ignorance of events several thousand years ago proves something..

The article was written in 1983. Since then, creationists have looked into the issues raised in the article. The most notable is "Noah's Ark: A Feasibility Study," published in 1996. The 1983 article needs to be updated to take into account the greater information that has been developed. However, after all the speculation about the ark, we simply don't know what really happened beyond what we read in the Bible. However, our ignorance of the details does not invalidate the Biblical account.

This silly myth is untrue and false. First of all, there are two versions of Noah's ark that differ. Then there is reality. How does a flood like this create large mountains with fossils here, the vast sand deserts of Sahara there, over there the vast Plains of Kansas, Nebraska and the Dakotas et al. How did all those kangaroos et al get to Australia? Large geological formations were laid down with fossils, then upheaved, twisted, tilted, crumpled, eroded in some parts and new layers of fossil rich beds laid down. No flood possible. You are simply ignorant of the facts as to this Earth really formed. You don't care and will never bother to study these facts that all decent geologists know. Dinosaur fossils are never mixed with Mammal fossils, despite hysterical creationist lies. There was no flood and science knows it full well.

No matter how many facts and truths given to you, you will airily dismiss it all as "opinion". Despite all you have is provably true mythology as your opinion.

Creationism is militant willful ignorance. And this is the problem with foolish myth based religions. It makes people WANT to be wrong.

 

[rhutchin]

This is an opinion piece. It asks questions as if our ignorance of events several thousand years ago proves something..

The article was written in 1983. Since then, creationists have looked into the issues raised in the article. The most notable is "Noah's Ark: A Feasibility Study," published in 1996. The 1983 article needs to be updated to take into account the greater information that has been developed. However, after all the speculation about the ark, we simply don't know what really happened beyond what we read in the Bible. However, our ignorance of the details does not invalidate the Biblical account.

This silly myth is untrue and false. First of all, there are two versions of Noah's ark that differ.

Not a real issue. It is not unusual to have the truth of an event coincident with a corrupted version of the event. It happens. Such does not deny the reality of the flood. The two accounts agree that there was a flood supporting the conclusion that there was a flood.

Then there is reality. How does a flood like this create large mountains with fossils here,...

How else, we might ask, do fossils of shellfish get on Mt Everest? The real question concerns changes to the earth's surface that resulted from the flood and changes that happened after the flood. If we could figure out the mechanics of the flood, we might have the answer to your question. However, your question does not argue against a flood.

the vast sand deserts of Sahara there, over there the vast Plains of Kansas, Nebraska and the Dakotas et al.

It seems possible for a flood to leave large deposits of animals in one place where they are fossilized and large deposits of sand in other places. Outside a flood, what other mechanism exists to produce the same results? Again, no argument against the flood here.

How did all those kangaroos et al get to Australia?

They probably hopped there.

Large geological formations were laid down with fossils, then upheaved, twisted, tilted, crumpled, eroded in some parts and new layers of fossil rich beds laid down. No flood possible.

Not necessary. However, a flood could easily deposit large numbers of animals in one place where they are then covered by silt and fossilized. Later earthquakes could then do the twisting. No argument here.

You are simply ignorant of the facts as to this Earth really formed. You don't care and will never bother to study these facts that all decent geologists know. Dinosaur fossils are never mixed with Mammal fossils, despite hysterical creationist lies. There was no flood and science knows it full well.

No matter how many facts and truths given to you, you will airily dismiss it all as "opinion". Despite all you have is provably true mythology as your opinion.

Even you are unable to present any facts above - you basically argue your opinion. So, what is the issue - That science is largely ignorant of how it all happened?

- - - Updated - - -

The problem here is that there is not a lot of information available about the flood...

Yeah, that is a recurrent problem with references to fictional things and events.

It is also a problem with actual events.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Your opinion is wrongheaded and worthless. You babble "its possible" while geologists know, it ain't. You aren't going to think about any of this in any depth at all. And you are not going to study the facts. No, its not possible that a cast flood leaves tall mountains full of fossils here, entire seas of sand there, sandy plains as in Iraq or Syria, vast plains as in the US Midwest.

All you can do is babble, "Its possible", "just opinon", and other bafflegab showing no knowledge, no understanding, no willingness to think.

Is this religion? No thank you! I can't force myself to be willfully ignorant to truth and facts to be religious.

 

[Mageth]

Rhutchin asks:

How else, we might ask, do fossils of shellfish get on Mt Everest?

Easy. Deposition and uplift. Learned about it in middle school.

And here, read it from a christian:

http://geochristian.com/2009/04/25/six-bad-arguments-from-answers-in-genesis-part-1/

The flood account is myth, rhutchin. This is not opinion, it is cold hard fact.

Here's one more cold hard fact for you. It appears that you believe the flood covered Everest. That's 29k feet, rounded down a tad. The Bible says it rained for "40 days and 40 nights."

That's about 725 feet of rain a day, average worldwide. Think about that...

30 feet an hour.

Six inches a minute.

For 40 days.

Worldwide.

Nonstop.

Did not and could not have happened.

That is fact, not opinion.

 

[Sheshbazzar]

How else, we might ask, do fossils of shellfish get on Mt Everest?

Geological scientists have asked, investigated, and long since thoroughly answered that question at length, providing innumerable proofs of the facts of Continental Drift and the dynamics of the Plate Tectonics that thrust mountain ranges up from ancient sea beds, even being able to provide precise measurements of this geological activity.
Only retarded creotard religionists remain stupid and willfully dishonest enough to continue in the peddling of bronze age goat herder creation mythology.

If we could figure out the mechanics of the flood,

The insanely implausible 'mechanics' of the mythical Flood are the scientific evidence that it never happened.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

When it rains, each drop of rain releases a tiny bit of heat as it condenses.

http://chemwiki.ucdavis.edu/Physica...e_Functions/Enthalpy/Enthalpy_Of_Vaporization

The vast amount of rain represented by the biblical flood would have released so much heat, the oceans would have boiled.
Scientists who know these facts long ago, based on facts, abandoned any attempt to save the mythical flood and for very good reason.
It simply could not have happened.

 

[rhutchin]

When it rains, each drop of rain releases a tiny bit of heat as it condenses.

http://chemwiki.ucdavis.edu/Physica...e_Functions/Enthalpy/Enthalpy_Of_Vaporization

The vast amount of rain represented by the biblical flood would have released so much heat, the oceans would have boiled.
Scientists who know these facts long ago, based on facts, abandoned any attempt to save the mythical flood and for very good reason.
It simply could not have happened.

Where do you get the idea of a vast amount of rain boiling the oceans - did you make that up? According to the Bible, "all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened." It then rained forty days. There is no necessity for "The vast amount of rain represented by the biblical flood would have released so much heat, the oceans would have boiled." I think this is a strawman argument you concocted to argue to a false conclusion.

 

[rhutchin]

Geological scientists have asked, investigated, and long since thoroughly answered that question at length, providing innumerable proofs of the facts of Continental Drift and the dynamics of the Plate Tectonics that thrust mountain ranges up from ancient sea beds, even being able to provide precise measurements of this geological activity.

Kinds of things that can happen during a worldwide flood. Creationists must be on to something if science agrees with them.