"God cannot create a square circle"

[rhutchin]

Here's one more cold hard fact for you. It appears that you believe the flood covered Everest. That's 29k feet, rounded down a tad. The Bible says it rained for "40 days and 40 nights."

We actually don't know how high mountains were at the time of the flood. Those mountains could have been created through geologic processes during the flood or in the years following the flood. I think you have constructed a strawman argument to argue to a false conclusion. Seems to be a common ploy here.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Here's one more cold hard fact for you. It appears that you believe the flood covered Everest. That's 29k feet, rounded down a tad. The Bible says it rained for "40 days and 40 nights."

We actually don't know how high mountains were at the time of the flood. Those mountains could have been created through geologic processes during the flood or in the years following the flood. I think you have constructed a strawman argument to argue to a false conclusion. Seems to be a common ploy here.

The thing about science is we can find evidence of that. There hasn't been any.

 

[Narapoia]

When it rains, each drop of rain releases a tiny bit of heat as it condenses.

http://chemwiki.ucdavis.edu/Physica...e_Functions/Enthalpy/Enthalpy_Of_Vaporization

The vast amount of rain represented by the biblical flood would have released so much heat, the oceans would have boiled.
Scientists who know these facts long ago, based on facts, abandoned any attempt to save the mythical flood and for very good reason.
It simply could not have happened.

....without magic. There is no way for the flood myth to have occurred without magic - and if believers use that as an explanation it is simply the end of the conversation. There is no way you can debate or discuss that which falls outside the normal mechanisms and functioning of the universe, all things become possible, and impossible to understand from our frame of reference.

However, since every mystery, ever solved has turned out to be 'not magic' I'm going run with the whole previous experience is a good predictor of future experience and say magic is not a likely explanation of future or currently unsolved mysteries. There is no way, according to our understanding of the universe, for the flood to have been an actual event. Aside from the fact that there is absolutely zero physical or cultural evidence for such a global flood, it is physically impossible - as has been mentioned in some posts above. To accept it as a real event in the absence of magical intervention is laughable.

 

[Mageth]

When it rains, each drop of rain releases a tiny bit of heat as it condenses.

http://chemwiki.ucdavis.edu/Physica...e_Functions/Enthalpy/Enthalpy_Of_Vaporization

The vast amount of rain represented by the biblical flood would have released so much heat, the oceans would have boiled.
Scientists who know these facts long ago, based on facts, abandoned any attempt to save the mythical flood and for very good reason.
It simply could not have happened.

Where do you get the idea of a vast amount of rain boiling the oceans - did you make that up?

Mathematics and physics.

According to the Bible, "all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened." It then rained forty days.

In an attempt to support the flood myth, you appeal to the flat earth with a solid dome for a sky model of the earth that the myth relies on. That model is where the fountains of the deep and windows of heaven comes from.

There is no necessity for "The vast amount of rain represented by the biblical flood would have released so much heat, the oceans would have boiled."

Sure, not if you believe in a flat earth floating on a vast ocean of water, with a solid dome for a sky in which there are windows that god can open to let water through.

I think this is a strawman argument you concocted to argue to a false conclusion.

And I think your attempt at a response in which you try to defend the flood myth with the flat earth model hilarious.

 

[Mageth]

Here's one more cold hard fact for you. It appears that you believe the flood covered Everest. That's 29k feet, rounded down a tad. The Bible says it rained for "40 days and 40 nights."

We actually don't know how high mountains were at the time of the flood.

Acually, we do know to a close approximation how high various mountains have been for the last several million years. For example, 6000 years ago, Mt. Everest was app. 29000 feet.

You're regurgitating yec fictions.

Those mountains could have been created through geologic processes during the flood or in the years following the flood.

No, this is yet more yec fabrication. We know the geological process that created (is creating, actually) the Himalayas. It began around 80m years ago, IIRC, with the collision of the Indian subcontinent with Asia.

I think you have constructed a strawman argument to argue to a false conclusion.

I based it on your assertion of fossils on Mt. Everest and the words of Genesis, along with well knowm geology. After that it's simple math. No straw needed.

Seems to be a common ploy here.

You're making shit up in a lame attempt to support your myths. We know for a fact that creationists do that.

 

[Mageth]

Technical details...

A WIKI on the Indian Plate collision.

My recollection was a bit off...the Indian plate began moving towards Asia around 80m years ago, but the collision was around 20m years ago.

In contrast to actual science, here's where the "windows of heaven" and "fountains of the deep" that rhutchin is laughably trying to resort to comes from:

 

[Mageth]

Geological scientists have asked, investigated, and long since thoroughly answered that question at length, providing innumerable proofs of the facts of Continental Drift and the dynamics of the Plate Tectonics that thrust mountain ranges up from ancient sea beds, even being able to provide precise measurements of this geological activity.

Kinds of things that can happen during a worldwide flood.

No they're not. E.g., the Indian Plate collision/Himalayan Plateau uplift is an @20 million year long event. The Bible myth gives "the flood" a period of about a year.

Creationists must be on to something if science agrees with them.

Then according to your own conditional creationists are not on to something.

 

[Rhea]

In contrast to actual science, here's where the "windows of heaven" and "fountains of the deep" that rhutchin is laughably trying to resort to comes from:

View attachment 357

Interesting thing about this concept, it makes for a warm, fuzzy, protected little bubble of a world, unencumbered by the vastness of space. Very much like religion itself. Interesting parallel.

 

[atrib]

Here's one more cold hard fact for you. It appears that you believe the flood covered Everest. That's 29k feet, rounded down a tad. The Bible says it rained for "40 days and 40 nights."

We actually don't know how high mountains were at the time of the flood. Those mountains could have been created through geologic processes during the flood or in the years following the flood. I think you have constructed a strawman argument to argue to a false conclusion. Seems to be a common ploy here.

If you had taken the trouble to do a little research before you posted, you would have discovered why there are fossils embedded in the Limestone that makes up a significant part of the mass of the Himalayas (hint: its not because the planet was covered by a great flood). You would also have discovered that the interaction between the Indian and Asian plates that resulted in the uplift of the Himalayan range began about 65 million years ago, not a mere couple of thousand years ago. If you don't have any knowledge of the subject it is wiser to keep your mouth shut than to open it wide and display your ignorance for all to see.

If the planet were covered by a great flood mere thousands of years ago, there would have been an abundance of evidence for this event all over the planet. Yet there is none. If you want to insist that this mythological flood was real, it is incumbent on you to cite a few geological science research papers that have concluded such a worldwide flood happened. You won't do that, and everyone here including yourself knows that for a fact.

If the entire human population save for a select handful had been exterminated during a catastrophic event two to four thousand years ago, along with pretty much every other living thing alive on the planet at that time, there would be an abundance of evidence of this bottleneck in our genes. There is none. In fact, earlier in this thread you were called out to demonstrate how the hyperevolution of living things that survived the flood could have caused the diversity of life we observe today, but you ran away from that conversation very, very fast. Your claims are bullshit with nothing but your deliberate ignorance to back them up. We are not impressed.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

When it rains, each drop of rain releases a tiny bit of heat as it condenses.


http://chemwiki.ucdavis.edu/Physica...e_Functions/Enthalpy/Enthalpy_Of_Vaporization

The vast amount of rain represented by the biblical flood would have released so much heat, the oceans would have boiled.
Scientists who know these facts long ago, based on facts, abandoned any attempt to save the mythical flood and for very good reason.
It simply could not have happened.

Where do you get the idea of a vast amount of rain boiling the oceans - did you make that up? According to the Bible, "all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened." It then rained forty days. There is no necessity for "The vast amount of rain represented by the biblical flood would have released so much heat, the oceans would have boiled." I think this is a strawman argument you concocted to argue to a false conclusion.

No. I did not make that up. It is something that has been around for decades that has been pointed out by knowledgable physicists

http://www.holysmoke.org/cretins/fludmath.htm

Dr. Marty Leipzig looks at the mathematics of 'Noah's Flood.'

"Let's look into that from a physical standpoint. To flood the Earth, we have already seen that it would require 4.252 x 109 km3 of water with a mass of 4.525 x 1021 kg. When this amount of water is floating about the Earth's surface, it stored an enormous amount of potential energy, which is converted to kinetic energy when it falls, which, in turn, is converted to heat upon impact with the Earth. The amount of heat released is immense:
Potential energy: E=M*g*H, where
M = mass of water,
g = gravitational constant and,
H = height of water above surface.
Now, going with the Genesis version of the Noachian Deluge as lasting 40 days and nights, the amount of mass falling to Earth each day is 4.525 x 1021 kg/40 24 hr. periods. This equals 1.10675 x 1020 kilograms daily. Using H as 10 miles (16,000 meters), the energy released each day is 1.73584 x 1025 joules. The amount of energy the Earth would have to radiate per m2/sec is energy divided by surface area of the Earth times number of seconds in one day. That is: e = 1.735384 x 1025/(4*3.14159* ((6386)2*86,400)) = 391,935.0958 j/m2/s.

Currently, the Earth radiates energy at the rate of approximately 215 joules/m2/sec and the average temperature is 280 K. Using the Stefan- Boltzman 4'th power law to calculate the increase in temperature:
E (increase)/E (normal) = T (increase)/T4 (normal)


E (normal) = 215
E (increase) = 391,935.0958
T (normal) = 280.


Turn the crank, and T (increase) equals 1800 K.
The temperature would thusly rise 1800 K, or 1,526.84 C (that's 2,780.33 F...lead melts at 880 F...ed note). It would be highly unlikely that anything short of fused quartz would survive such an onslaught. Also, the water level would have to rise at an average rate of 5.5 inches/min; and in 13 minutes would be in excess of 6' deep.

Finally, at 1800 K water would not exist as liquid."

-------------------

Your rainstorm supposed covers all the tall mountains. 25,000 feet in forty days? Each tiny rain drop releases heat. Together, all those raindrops have enough heat to reach 1800 degrees. There would be no ocean to float that ark on, just a ball of superheated steam hotter than mercury.

Obviously you did not read the chemistry article I pointed you to explaining water, heat, condensation-evaporation. Water vapor condensing releases heat.

Genesis 7
4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made.”

 

[Elixir]

We actually don't know how high mountains were at the time of the flood.

If mountains rose thousands of feet in a year the earth would be a molten ball of slag. High school math, dude.

How else, we might ask, do fossils of shellfish get on Mt Everest?

The same way they are continuing to gain altitude today. 2-5mm/yr over millions of years. The Himalayas are the result of the ongoing collision between two tectonic place, whose movements can be measured in real time - as can the rise of the Himalayas.

They probably hopped there.

More likely they waved their hands just as you are doing. Kangaroos cannot hop over hundreds (thousands) of miles of water. And they left no trace of EVER having been anywhere but Australia.

You already know that there is no case for your mythical fludde, dude.

It [lack of information) is also a problem with actual events.

Real events leave real traces. The bigger the event, the bigger the traces. A global flood would have left obvious signs.

THERE ARE NONE.

[opinion]Teh stoopid should hurt more! [/opinion]

 

[Kharakov]

I wonder if the big bang left any Traci beside Lord's? Definitely a young universe back then.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

I just noticed this thread has an attachment. No idea how that got there. Oh, am I misunderstanding how attachments work?

 

[Rhea]

It's probably a photo attachment in someone's post.

 

[rhutchin]

When it rains, each drop of rain releases a tiny bit of heat as it condenses.

http://chemwiki.ucdavis.edu/Physica...e_Functions/Enthalpy/Enthalpy_Of_Vaporization

The vast amount of rain represented by the biblical flood would have released so much heat, the oceans would have boiled.
Scientists who know these facts long ago, based on facts, abandoned any attempt to save the mythical flood and for very good reason.
It simply could not have happened.

Where do you get the idea of a vast amount of rain boiling the oceans - did you make that up? According to the Bible, "all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened." It then rained forty days. There is no necessity for "The vast amount of rain represented by the biblical flood would have released so much heat, the oceans would have boiled." I think this is a strawman argument you concocted to argue to a false conclusion.

No. I did not make that up. It is something that has been around for decades that has been pointed out by knowledgable physicists

http://www.holysmoke.org/cretins/fludmath.htm

Dr. Marty Leipzig looks at the mathematics of 'Noah's Flood.'

Again, this seems to be the strawman that all the water that produced the flood came from rain. The Bible is clear that there were two sources of the water - rain and the breaking up of the fountains of the deep. God did send rain for forty days, but that was not the only source, or even the primary source, of the flood waters.

Leipzig also assumes that Mt Everest existed at that time and the flood waters had to cover it. Did you really buy that assumption?

So, it still seems to me that you have created a strawman in order to reach a false conclusion.

Dr. Leipzig's approach can determine the limit on the rain that could fall and the contribution that rain could make to the flood (so long as we get his assumptions straightened out first).

 

[rhutchin]

In an attempt to support the flood myth, you appeal to the flat earth with a solid dome for a sky model of the earth that the myth relies on. That model is where the fountains of the deep and windows of heaven comes from.

By flat earth, we mean a spherical earth with a relatively flat surface where there are no mountains of any significance. We actually do not know what the land surface was like before the flood. There is no solid dome - I think this idea comes from Jewish speculation.

 

[rhutchin]

There is no way for the flood myth to have occurred without magic - and if believers use that as an explanation it is simply the end of the conversation. There is no way you can debate or discuss that which falls outside the normal mechanisms and functioning of the universe, all things become possible, and impossible to understand from our frame of reference.

Taking the account provided in the Bible, there is no reason to think that naturally occurring processes account for the flood. The flood was a supernatural event (or magic in your mind) initiated by God.

 

[Rhea]

Again, this seems to be the strawman that all the water that produced the flood came from rain. The Bible is clear that there were two sources of the water - rain and the breaking up of the fountains of the deep. God did send rain for forty days, but that was not the only source, or even the primary source, of the flood waters.

So, rhutchin, where is "the deep" now, and why can't we find evidence of it?

Leipzig also assumes that Mt Everest existed at that time and the flood waters had to cover it. Did you really buy that assumption?

it's not an assumption. Do you label it an assumption because you are honest in not having any idea at all how he comes up with that? (In which case, why are you not interested in finding out the details of important information that you obviously don't understand yet?)

Or do you label it thus in a dishonest deception for avoiding the facts that you know support the knowledge?

So, it still seems to me that you have created a strawman in order to reach a false conclusion.

Dr. Leipzig's approach can determine the limit on the rain that could fall and the contribution that rain could make to the flood (so long as we get his assumptions straightened out first).

I think you have really convinced yourself that science is unreliable. How do you drive a car without paralyzing fear of failure? How do you use electricity without terror at whether it's going to jump out and stop behaving as scientists predict it always will?

How do you go to sleep each night without wondering if the sun will even rise the next day!? How can you hear about so many areas of study and have no curiosity AT ALL about the facts that support them? Do you also reject vaccines? Medications? Hazardous weather warnings? Drowning advice? The existence of the artist formerly known as Prince? Do you fear all tall buildings because science cannot be relied upon to predict the strength and movement of matter?

How do you breathe without a machine?

You are an amazing specimen of jaw-dropping lack of information and a complete absence of curiosity. Fascinating.

 

[Rhea]

There is no way for the flood myth to have occurred without magic - and if believers use that as an explanation it is simply the end of the conversation. There is no way you can debate or discuss that which falls outside the normal mechanisms and functioning of the universe, all things become possible, and impossible to understand from our frame of reference.

Taking the account provided in the Bible, there is no reason to think that naturally occurring processes account for the flood. The flood was a supernatural event (or magic in your mind) initiated by God.

It is true that no naturally occurring processes can be used to produce what you claim happened.

BUT...

Even if it WAS a supernatural event, there is ALSO no way it could have happened and not left natural evidence of its passing. The earth appears as if it never happened. So if you're claiming your god did this, then s/he/it ALSO must have completely UNdone it and obliterated all of the evidence. For there is NO evidence that a supernatural event like this ever happened. Now that you've admitted that you can't say HOW it happened, let's move on to you proving that it even happened at all.


So,

1. No natural processes that could have produced this event.
2. No evidence that the event happened.
3. ???
4. Goddidit.

God did WHAT?! What are you claiming he did? Show the physical evidence of any thing that s/he/it DID and we can discuss whether it had to be supernatural. The sole source for your story is a book. That's the only evidence you have. It's laughable that you cling to an idea that comes only from a book. Come on, your dude is A GOD!!! He can't produce any evidence of his deeds that are more convincing than an old book? Not even a freakin' crop circle or anything?

 

[Mageth]

By flat earth, we mean a spherical earth with a relatively flat surface where there are no mountains of any significance. We actually do not know what the land surface was like before the flood. There is no solid dome - I think this idea comes from Jewish speculation.

You earlier asserted "According to the Bible, "all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened." " as sources of water for the flood before "the rains came":

http://talkfreethought.org/showthre...uare-circle-quot&p=20737&viewfull=1#post20737

However, in the post just above, you modified this to "The Bible is clear that there were two sources of the water - rain and the breaking up of the fountains of the deep. "

Why is that?

Now you note that "There is no solid dome - I think this idea comes from Jewish speculation." However, "the windows of heaven were opened", which you previously cited as a source of water, is based upon that "speculation" - which was the worldview of the writer the flood myth.

Now you've trimmed it down to "the fountains of the deep", discounting the "windows" portion of the myth as "Jewish speculation" - failing to note that the "fountains of the deep" notion cited in the myth is based on the same "Jewish speculation" that you here discount.