"God cannot create a square circle"

[rhutchin]

Belief in evolution is justified because we have massive amounts of evidence for that.

Here you need to be more precise. We have massive amounts of evidence for speciation (sometimes referred to as micro-evolution). With this we can explain how the relatively few animals that got off the ark after Noah's flood grew into the numbers we see today.

The idea of universal common descent (sometimes referred to as macro-evolution) is basically conjecture. There is no real evidence for this - certainly nothing that could be called massive. Belief in universal common descent is a faith position.

Since God has no evidence at all for its basic existence and lots of problems that the basic claims for God create logical contradictions, God is a false belief, in no way justifiable and thus false belief, worthless faith. Nature, we can observe and work with directly, scientifically. You are trying here to confuse these two kinds of faith, but the faith in the observable Universe is different from belief in magic sky pixies.

Nonetheless, we have the accounts of historical events contained in the Bible. This is evidence of God's interactions with the Jews. The universes is also evidence of the existence of a creator who brought the universe into existence; otherwise no universe.

There are two kinds of faith, justified faith and unjustified faith.

Unjustified and unjustifiable faith is false faith and is intellectually unacceptable. It leads to people in the name of false faith to reject observable facts and reject reason and rationality. That sort of unjustified faith can never lead to truth or real understanding.

I don't buy into the distinction you make. If faith is "justified" why call it faith?

 

[rhutchin]

Now, why did God tolerate original sin for even a second. Do you have anything other than a vague rationalization?

I don't know what you mean when you use the term, "original sin." Are you asking why God tolerates people being evil?

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Since God has no evidence at all for its basic existence and lots of problems that the basic claims for God create logical contradictions, God is a false belief, in no way justifiable and thus false belief, worthless faith. Nature, we can observe and work with directly, scientifically. You are trying here to confuse these two kinds of faith, but the faith in the observable Universe is different from belief in magic sky pixies.

Nonetheless, we have the accounts of historical events contained in the Bible. This is evidence of God's interactions with the Jews. The universes is also evidence of the existence of a creator who brought the universe into existence; otherwise no universe.

Archaeology has demonstrated that much of the Bible is false. The many cities supposedly destroyed by the Israelites were ruins long before Israelites existed. No exodus, no Egyptian captivity, no military invasion of Canaan, no Moses on the mount with God. No massacres ordered by God. No flood, no tower of Babel, no Israel wrestling God. All mythology, faux history, all nonsense. There is in fact no God interacting with the Israelites, just the tall tales of thoroughly dishonest priests. With tall tales that are ludicrous anyway. Judges contradicts Exodus. What, God displaying his ass to Moses? "Leaveth none that breathe". Supposedly starting with 75 sheep herders in Egypt, 430 years later, the early Israelites show no Egyptianisms in language or culture? No, they were merely typical Cannanites. The Universe is proof of naturalism, not God. The facts and simple logic destroy this ancient mythology.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Now, why did God tolerate original sin for even a second. Do you have anything other than a vague rationalization?

I don't know what you mean when you use the term, "original sin." Are you asking why God tolerates people being evil?

God - "Well damn! Where did this original sin come from! It will destroy free will and cause moral evil. I will eliminate it from existence now!"

Yeah baby! God decided to not do anything for 4000 years?! No. There is no sign of original sin in Genesis. Its a lame gotchya by Paul as to why one cannot be good without being a Christian and thus gain salvation. No. Romans 8 - 9. GOd chooses wwwho wwill be teh elect and who will be evil and damned. God predestines it all, Romans, Acts et al.

AGAIN. ROMANS 11 God hardens hearts of Jews to not believe in Jesus. Why?! Why not make all believe? I pose this to you and you refuse to answer in a straight foward way, as if you could on the issues. You play stupid and try to disrail the discussion into irrelevancies.

Omnigenesis. If a truly omniscient God creates all, there is no free will and all moral evil is God's creation. I remind you again of this which you won't directly deal with adequately.

If Satan causes moral evil, why does God tolerate his presence on Earth? I will never get a straight answer form a Christian here, will I?

For apologists it all a big game of avoiding logic and rationality.

 

[Kharakov]

Now, why did God tolerate original sin for even a second. Do you have anything other than a vague rationalization?

I don't know what you mean when you use the term, "original sin." Are you asking why God tolerates people being evil?

I'm not really concerned with why God tolerates people being evil- but why do we let children learn to treat one another right, instead of constantly correcting their every move? Is it because we then don't have to constantly correct them and deal with their mistakes, and can then do more positive activities with them when they become mature enough to differentiate between an action that is wasteful and brings others down and one that is beneficial and lifts others up?

At some point, a child learns the difference between playing a game to hold others down so that the child feels higher AND living life to hold others up so all can be lifted together. Then the child is an adult, and does not play the game to get on top of others, put plays it to lift others up.

Original sin is a natural consequence of logical thinking: I feel higher when others are below me, so I play to hold others down rather than working together to lift everyone up. It's just a skewed perspective that continually warps ones thinking as long as one sees the world and life that way. Ultimately, others who have been lifted higher are seen as holding one down, instead of as being lifted up, because one has the entirely wrong attitude about life. Of course, you don't lift up assholes, because they'll shit on you from above (to keep you down).

 

[Kharakov]

There is no sign of original sin in Genesis. Its a lame gotchya by Paul as to why one cannot be good without being a Christian and thus gain salvation. No. Romans 8 - 9. GOd chooses wwwho wwill be teh elect and who will be evil and damned. God predestines it all, Romans, Acts et al.

Have you ever seen a horrible behavior or trait in another and decided to modify your own behavior based on seeing what it does?

For apologists it all a big game of avoiding logic and rationality.

It's really about being on the right side of the taint.

 

[jonJ]

What about you? What evidence would cause you to switch away from your God hypothesis?

We read, "the invisible things of God from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that those who do not believe are without excuse:" and referring to the flood of Noah, "this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:"

This suggests that the issue will never be resolved by reference to evidence simply because people want to believe what they want to believe and there will never be enough evidence to persuade otherwise. Nonetheless, the Bible says that God created the universe and God created life and these are the two biggest problems for those who reject God - How to get the universe and life.

So, if science were to demonstrate that the universe or life could happen without God, that would be disconcerting. I don't see it happening.

Then there is the issue of evil. Without God, there should be no evil - only animals acting as animals and animals are not evil. Because evil exists, God must exist.

Well, my wife and I have already demonstrated that life can happen without God -- twice! -- so you should be disconcerted. But you're not going to be, because you're going to read God into the events even though there reason to do so. So I'm going to take this as a "none": your God hypothesis is completely unfalsifiable.

 

[rhutchin]

Well, my wife and I have already demonstrated that life can happen without God -- twice! -- so you should be disconcerted.

You and your wife have demonstrated that which creationists have long contended - life begets life. Glad to see you come on board (if only on this issue). Nothing to be disconcerted about here.

Of course, if, as you demonstrated, life begets life, the issue for evolutionists is how to get life when you start with a system where there is no life.

But you're not going to be, because you're going to read God into the events even though there reason to do so. So I'm going to take this as a "none": your God hypothesis is completely unfalsifiable.

My God hypothesis is falsifiable. We all get to die one day and then we all will know the truth about this matter. Until then, I have my faith about what will happen on that day, and you have your faith.

 

[rhutchin]

Now, why did God tolerate original sin for even a second. Do you have anything other than a vague rationalization?

I don't know what you mean when you use the term, "original sin." Are you asking why God tolerates people being evil?

Original sin is a natural consequence of logical thinking:

But original sin requires God as God spelled out the ramifications of original sin. I agree that it is logical - that actions beget consequences.

 

[rhutchin]

Now, why did God tolerate original sin for even a second. Do you have anything other than a vague rationalization?

I don't know what you mean when you use the term, "original sin." Are you asking why God tolerates people being evil?

God - "Well damn! Where did this original sin come from! It will destroy free will and cause moral evil. I will eliminate it from existence now!"

Yeah baby! God decided to not do anything for 4000 years?! No. There is no sign of original sin in Genesis. Its a lame gotchya by Paul as to why one cannot be good without being a Christian and thus gain salvation. No. Romans 8 - 9. GOd chooses wwwho wwill be teh elect and who will be evil and damned. God predestines it all, Romans, Acts et al.

AGAIN. ROMANS 11 God hardens hearts of Jews to not believe in Jesus. Why?! Why not make all believe? I pose this to you and you refuse to answer in a straight foward way, as if you could on the issues. You play stupid and try to disrail the discussion into irrelevancies.

Omnigenesis. If a truly omniscient God creates all, there is no free will and all moral evil is God's creation. I remind you again of this which you won't directly deal with adequately.

If Satan causes moral evil, why does God tolerate his presence on Earth? I will never get a straight answer form a Christian here, will I?

For apologists it all a big game of avoiding logic and rationality.

Are you talking about the first sin or of the theological concept known as "original sin"?

 

[rhutchin]

ROMANS 11 God hardens hearts of Jews to not believe in Jesus. Why?! Why not make all believe? I pose this to you and you refuse to answer in a straight forward way, as if you could on the issues. You play stupid and try to disrail the discussion into irrelevancies.

I don't see the issue here. When God created the universe, He knew all that was to happen from the first day until the last day. He had decreed every second of every person's life and in creating the world, He set all that He had decreed in motion - we are now living out that which God has decreed.

Following Paul, “'Shall what is formed say to God who formed him, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory..."

Why doesn't God make all believe? Why do you care since you are convinced that there is no God? Your objection seems to be that God is not what you want Him to be but is what He wants to be. God made vessels for common purposes so all are not saved and were never intended to be saved.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

we are now living out that which God has decreed.

You keep saying that. What events, specifically, are unfolding?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

And why the fuck didn't God have someone stop by my house and get me a beer instead of forcing me to get up off the couch and grab one myself like some kind of chump?

Fucking God.

 

[rhutchin]

we are now living out that which God has decreed.

You keep saying that. What events, specifically, are unfolding?

Everything - everything in your life and everything in the lives of all other people.

 

[rhutchin]

And why ...didn't God have someone stop by my house and get me a beer instead of forcing me to get up off the couch and grab one myself like some kind of chump?

....

Why? Who are you that God should consider you?

 

[rhutchin]

Omnigenesis. If a truly omniscient God creates all, there is no free will and all moral evil is God's creation. I remind you again of this which you won't directly deal with adequately.

Why would you draw this conclusion? God can certainly let people act freely and do as they desire; nothing prohibits that. Just because God knows what a person will do does not mean that the person does not act freely.

If Satan causes moral evil, why does God tolerate his presence on Earth? I will never get a straight answer form a Christian here, will I?

Satan is God's agent to accomplish God's purposes. We read, "Satan has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ,..." Satan has a purpose, much like a bottle of whiskey, to prepare unbelievers for judgment.

 

[Tigers!]

You need the exercise? (for Tom Sawyer)

 

[Keith&Co.]

Then why couldn't God just make 'sofa' an exercise?
Lazy bastard, putting shit off on his consumers...

 

[Kharakov]

Then why couldn't God just make 'sofa' an exercise?
Lazy bastard, putting shit off on his consumers...

So the king of the sofas (in other words the lazy boy) wouldn't have minions that said "that's sofa king brilliant!"

 

[jonJ]

My God hypothesis is falsifiable. We all get to die one day and then we all will know the truth about this matter. Until then, I have my faith about what will happen on that day, and you have your faith.

Something can't be described as falsifiable if you're not in a condition to observe the evidence that falsifies it. You have your faith, and I have facts.

But doesn't it strike you as just a little bit too convenient for your religion that the only time you get to see proof of God is when you're no longer in a position to pass it on to anyone else? They told the Jews in Belsen that they were all going to have a nice long shower...

- - - Updated - - -

And why ...didn't God have someone stop by my house and get me a beer instead of forcing me to get up off the couch and grab one myself like some kind of chump?

....

Why? Who are you that God should consider you?

He's a human being. You know, one of those things that God's supposed to love and care for?