Good news in the pronoun wars: $400k payout for professor

[Bronzeage]

When I have a medical exam, I am asked, "Do you have feelings that you want to hurt yourself or someone else?" I manage to get through it.

Bully for you but I refuse to go along with these fantasies.

It's another mystery why some people find the pregnancy question objectionable, when it's sole purpose is to protect an unborn baby. I've never bought into the fiction that they find life sacred.

You can pretend it’s about protecting a non existent fetus until the cows come home. Which I’m sure you will.

Okay, I'll play along. Why does the xray technician ask if the patient may be pregnant?

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Now the correct usage is determined by gender preference, more specifically an individual's preference. True, people didn't see things that way just a few decades ago. But that was then and this is now.

I'm inclined to ask for evidence of that. But before I do that, I would like some clarification on your claim.

Let me begin:

First, when you say 'correct' pronoun usage, are you saying that what you regard as incorrect makes a false claim or implication? For example, suppose John wants to be called by 'she', and Bob says 'He has a car', when talking about John. Suppose John does have a car. So, are you saying that Bob made a false claim? To be clear, I'm not asking whether Bob made an evil claim. I'm asking whether Bob made a false claim.

Second, as above, is Bob making a grammar error?

John has had a penis all of John's life, and is 30-something years old.

 

[TomC]

First, when you say 'correct' pronoun usage, are you saying that what you regard as incorrect makes a false claim or implication?

No.

It's just rude.

Mean. For meanness own sake.
Humans do that quite a bit.
Tom

 

[Angra Mainyu]

First, when you say 'correct' pronoun usage, are you saying that what you regard as incorrect makes a false claim or implication?

No.

It's just rude.

Mean. For meanness own sake.
Humans do that quite a bit.
Tom

You do not understand the motivations behind many of those who want to use the pronoun "he". For example, they just do not want to make the grammar mistake of calling a man 'she'. And they assess that John is a man. In fact, Bob might not even know John personally - say, John is a celebrity.

And/or it would just very difficult for them to speak Woke. And/or other reasons. But meanness for its own sake is not generally the case. Your opponents are rarely caricature villains.

But let's leave that aside for now. I asked you also whether you believe Bob made a grammar mistake. I'd like to know the answer, in order to know what it is you are claiming.

 

[Metaphor]

If you are employed the by the State, the State has no business forcing religious words from you. This includes respecting the religious demands of the gender cultists.

Referring to people in a considerate and civil fashion is not religious. Gender normative language in English is rather arbitrary and based on ancient assumptions that aren't necessarily true.

Why is it better to refer to an unknown individual with the inaccurate gender neutral plural "they" rather than the more accurate gender neutral singular "it"? I dunno. But that's how things are. Still not a religious concept.

More religious seeming is your insistence that correct pronoun usage is determined by ancient traditions. Pronouns used to be determined by sex, a physical characteristic. Now the correct usage is determined by gender preference, more specifically an individual's preference. True, people didn't see things that way just a few decades ago. But that was then and this is now.

It's your views on the subject that seem religious to me. Backing up your views with "That's how it's always been done" sounds very religious to me.
Tom

Tom, if a student demanded that the teacher refer to them using 'bug/bugself' pronouns, is it incumbent on the teacher to do so in order to be be 'considerate' and 'civil'?

 

[Metaphor]

It is a bit of a mystery why some people in the civilian world want to belittle and intimidate others by using inappropriate pronouns.

It is a bit of a mystery why you think people 'in the civilian world' want to do that. You are begging the question.

 

[Metaphor]

Sex is binary and cannot change in mammals. This is not a faith statement but a biological fact.

"Gender identity" can be anything because it is a thought in a person's head. I have no interest in anybody's "gender identity", any more than I have an interest in hearing them evaluate their own personality.

It is a biological fact that gender identity is determined by the brain. That you use scare quotes, or call it just thought, and refer to it as a religion, is you denying biological reality and facts.

I use scare quotes for "gender identity" because I don't know what people mean when they say it. When they do define it, it is often circular.

"Gender identity" is a thought in a person's head. That it is determined by the brain is no more to the point than that all thoughts are determined by the brain.

 

[TomC]

Tom, if a student demanded that the teacher refer to them using 'bug/bugself' pronouns, is it incumbent on the teacher to do so in order to be be 'considerate' and 'civil'?

No.
Tom

 

[Metaphor]

Tom, if a student demanded that the teacher refer to them using 'bug/bugself' pronouns, is it incumbent on the teacher to do so in order to be be 'considerate' and 'civil'?

No.
Tom

Okay. So, do you restrict your 'civil' and 'polite' pronoun requirements to 'he' 'she', and 'they'? If so, why did courtesy stop at those pronouns? If they don't stop at those pronouns, where do they stop?

I'm sure you are aware that I don't have to make any of this up. Among the list of pronouns I have seen demanded include 'bug/bugself' 'tree/treeself' 'it/its' 'clown/clownself' 'xe/xem/xirs'.

Do you believe teachers are required to remember the pronouns of the gender fluid, which can change from day to day, in order to be 'civil' and 'considerate'?

Do you believe that teachers are required to ratio-mix pronouns, such as 'she' and 'they', in the correct ration, in order to be 'civil' and 'considerate'?

I have seen a bio that says 'X does not use pronouns'. Of course, what that actually meant was 'X demands that other people do not use pronouns for her' (I use "her" because she was obviously an adult human female). Precisely how this was supposed to work in practice I am sure I don't know. When referencing X, should teachers and civil and considerate people be required to refrain from all pronoun usage?

 

[ZiprHead]

Sex is binary and cannot change in mammals. This is not a faith statement but a biological fact.

"Gender identity" can be anything because it is a thought in a person's head. I have no interest in anybody's "gender identity", any more than I have an interest in hearing them evaluate their own personality.

It is a biological fact that gender identity is determined by the brain. That you use scare quotes, or call it just thought, and refer to it as a religion, is you denying biological reality and facts.

I use scare quotes for "gender identity" because I don't know what people mean when they say it. When they do define it, it is often circular.

"Gender identity" is a thought in a person's head. That it is determined by the brain is no more to the point than that all thoughts are determined by the brain.

That you are a gay man is also determined by the thoughts in your head. By your standards we should not have to respect that.

 

[Metaphor]

Sex is binary and cannot change in mammals. This is not a faith statement but a biological fact.

"Gender identity" can be anything because it is a thought in a person's head. I have no interest in anybody's "gender identity", any more than I have an interest in hearing them evaluate their own personality.

It is a biological fact that gender identity is determined by the brain. That you use scare quotes, or call it just thought, and refer to it as a religion, is you denying biological reality and facts.

I use scare quotes for "gender identity" because I don't know what people mean when they say it. When they do define it, it is often circular.

"Gender identity" is a thought in a person's head. That it is determined by the brain is no more to the point than that all thoughts are determined by the brain.

That you are a gay man is also determined by the thoughts in your head. By your standards we should not have to respect that.

What on earth makes you think I want you to "respect" it? What demands do I make of your speech? Am I forcing you to utter things you do not believe? If so, how?

 

[ZiprHead]

Sex is binary and cannot change in mammals. This is not a faith statement but a biological fact.

"Gender identity" can be anything because it is a thought in a person's head. I have no interest in anybody's "gender identity", any more than I have an interest in hearing them evaluate their own personality.

It is a biological fact that gender identity is determined by the brain. That you use scare quotes, or call it just thought, and refer to it as a religion, is you denying biological reality and facts.

I use scare quotes for "gender identity" because I don't know what people mean when they say it. When they do define it, it is often circular.

"Gender identity" is a thought in a person's head. That it is determined by the brain is no more to the point than that all thoughts are determined by the brain.

That you are a gay man is also determined by the thoughts in your head. By your standards we should not have to respect that.

What on earth makes you think I want you to "respect" it? What demands do I make of your speech? Am I forcing you to utter things you do not believe? If so, how?

I think you should be required to use the lady's room instead of the men's room since you are sexually attracted to men.

 

[Metaphor]

Sex is binary and cannot change in mammals. This is not a faith statement but a biological fact.

"Gender identity" can be anything because it is a thought in a person's head. I have no interest in anybody's "gender identity", any more than I have an interest in hearing them evaluate their own personality.

It is a biological fact that gender identity is determined by the brain. That you use scare quotes, or call it just thought, and refer to it as a religion, is you denying biological reality and facts.

I use scare quotes for "gender identity" because I don't know what people mean when they say it. When they do define it, it is often circular.

"Gender identity" is a thought in a person's head. That it is determined by the brain is no more to the point than that all thoughts are determined by the brain.

That you are a gay man is also determined by the thoughts in your head. By your standards we should not have to respect that.

What on earth makes you think I want you to "respect" it? What demands do I make of your speech? Am I forcing you to utter things you do not believe? If so, how?

I think you should be required to use the lady's room instead of the men's room since you are sexually attracted to men.

Okay, you are completely free to think that. You clearly don't understand how sexed toilets work, and I'm not sure the ladies would be okay with your proposal, but you are free to propose it. And you are free to implement it in your pay toilet business if you want.

 

[Bomb#20]

I don't ask for feedback and have never received feedback about using pronouns, because the correct pronoun for somebody doesn't depend on the person's opinion.

I completely disagree. The only important thing that correct pronoun usage depends upon is that person's opinion.

Why should your opinion matter at all?
Tom

What an odd question.

Upthread, you accused Mr. Meriwether of behaving unprofessionally. But I think it's a dead cert that Mr. Meriwether doesn't see himself that way. He thinks he was perfectly reasonable and professional. And yet you went ahead and called what he did unprofessional. Why did you do that? You did it because that's your opinion. Well, why should your opinion matter at all? When you're applying adjectives to another person, the only important thing that correct adjective usage depends on is that person's opinion, right?

Wrong. The default presumption with speech is that what a person says is up to her, and what other people say is up to them. This is called "free speech". Your opinion determines what you say; my opinion determines what I say; Metaphor's opinion determines what he says; and so forth. This is because your mouth is not my property, nor mine yours. So the right question was never "Why should Metaphor's opinion matter at all?" It's painfully obvious why it should matter at all -- his opinion should matter because it's his mouth. The right question is "Why should the referred-to person's opinion matter at all?"

In short, you are reversing burden-of-proof. "Why should your opinion matter at all?" has become a widely repeated meme in this controversy, but all the people reciting it appear to have failed to notice that they are reversing burden-of-proof. So first exhibit a good reason for why the default presumption about speech should be set aside in this case -- exhibit a good reason for why any person ought to have no say in what he himself says -- and only then challenge somebody to justify his assumption that he owns his own mouth.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

First, when you say 'correct' pronoun usage, are you saying that what you regard as incorrect makes a false claim or implication?

No.

It's just rude.|

I would like to know whether you think that what Bob said, while not false, was grammatically incorrect.

 

[laughing dog]

I don't ask for feedback and have never received feedback about using pronouns, because the correct pronoun for somebody doesn't depend on the person's opinion.

I completely disagree. The only important thing that correct pronoun usage depends upon is that person's opinion.

Why should your opinion matter at all?
Tom

What an odd question.

Upthread, you accused Mr. Meriwether of behaving unprofessionally. But I think it's a dead cert that Mr. Meriwether doesn't see himself that way. He thinks he was perfectly reasonable and professional. And yet you went ahead and called what he did unprofessional. Why did you do that? You did it because that's your opinion. Well, why should your opinion matter at all? When you're applying adjectives to another person, the only important thing that correct adjective usage depends on is that person's opinion, right?

Wrong. The default presumption with speech is that what a person says is up to her, and what other people say is up to them. This is called "free speech". Your opinion determines what you say; my opinion determines what I say; Metaphor's opinion determines what he says; and so forth. This is because your mouth is not my property, nor mine yours. So the right question was never "Why should Metaphor's opinion matter at all?" It's painfully obvious why it should matter at all -- his opinion should matter because it's his mouth. The right question is "Why should the referred-to person's opinion matter at all?"

In short, you are reversing burden-of-proof. "Why should your opinion matter at all?" has become a widely repeated meme in this controversy, but all the people reciting it appear to have failed to notice that they are reversing burden-of-proof. So first exhibit a good reason for why the default presumption about speech should be set aside in this case -- exhibit a good reason for why any person ought to have no say in what he himself says -- and only then challenge somebody to justify his assumption that he owns his own mouth.

Asking the question "why should your opinion matter at all?" is not necessarily reversing any burden of proof. It is an off-hand way to determine the underpinning or reasoning behind of the opinion.

 

[Bomb#20]

It is a biological fact that gender identity is determined by the brain. That you use scare quotes, or call it just thought, and refer to it as a religion, is you denying biological reality and facts.

I use scare quotes for "gender identity" because I don't know what people mean when they say it. When they do define it, it is often circular.

"Gender identity" is a thought in a person's head. That it is determined by the brain is no more to the point than that all thoughts are determined by the brain.

That you are a gay man is also determined by the thoughts in your head. By your standards we should not have to respect that.

What on earth makes you think I want you to "respect" it? What demands do I make of your speech? Am I forcing you to utter things you do not believe? If so, how?

I think you should be required to use the lady's room instead of the men's room since you are sexually attracted to men.

Okay, you are completely free to think that. You clearly don't understand how sexed toilets work, and I'm not sure the ladies would be okay with your proposal, but you are free to propose it. And you are free to implement it in your pay toilet business if you want.

No, he isn't at all free to think that. What rest room he thinks you should be required to use is, like gender identity, determined by the brain. And no matter how hard he might wish to think you should be required to use the lady's room, his brain won't let him think you should be required to use the lady's room. His brain is just too darn smart to let him think that. (However, his brain is evidently perfectly prepared to let him freely choose to resort to sarcasm when he can't come up with a sound argument. )

 

[Bomb#20]

I completely disagree. The only important thing that correct pronoun usage depends upon is that person's opinion.

Why should your opinion matter at all?
Tom

What an odd question. ... In short, you are reversing burden-of-proof. ...

Asking the question "why should your opinion matter at all?" is not necessarily reversing any burden of proof. It is an off-hand way to determine the underpinning or reasoning behind of the opinion.

In an abstract philosophy debate, yes, could be. But in context, coming as it did immediately after a bald-faced unevidenced assertion that Metaphor's opinion does not matter, it's necessarily reversing burden of proof.

 

[Bomb#20]

The terrible discipline that this state university committed is

The university determined that Meriwether created a "hostile environment" for the unnamed student, eventually placing a written warning in his personnel file and threatening "further corrective actions," according to ADF. source - Shawnee State settles lawsuit

The ADF is the professor's legal counsel. I suspect the university settled to avoid further escalating legal bills.

IMO, it does not rise to $400,000 in damages. That professor is a class one snowflake and asshole.

I know a guy whose father was killed by medical malpractice; his family was awarded $700,000. No way is what Meriwether endured worth half a man's life. If he'd been fired maybe -- measurable economic damages and all that -- but a mere reprimand? So I'm inclined to agree with you, except for one thing...

"On Friday Shawnee State settled with Meriwether and agreed to pay him $400,000 in damages and attorney's fees."​

We don't know how high Meriwether's attorney's fees were. If enforcing his legal rights cost him $375,000, that's on the state that chose to put him in that position. If enforcing his legal rights cost him $25,000, and the $375,000 is a windfall, then yeah, he's a dick.

 

[Bomb#20]

First, when you say 'correct' pronoun usage, are you saying that what you regard as incorrect makes a false claim or implication?

No.

It's just rude.

Mean. For meanness own sake.
Humans do that quite a bit.

Christians often ask atheists to join them in group prayer; and they often regard refusal as rude and mean. Their hurt feelings are every bit as real as the hurt feelings of trans people who aren't given the words they crave. Do you think then that we're being rude and mean when we decline to pray with Christians?