Good news in the pronoun wars: $400k payout for professor

[Loren Pechtel]

I think you should be required to use the lady's room instead of the men's room since you are sexually attracted to men.

Okay, you are completely free to think that. You clearly don't understand how sexed toilets work, and I'm not sure the ladies would be okay with your proposal, but you are free to propose it. And you are free to implement it in your pay toilet business if you want.

You'll have no problem using the facilities in the ladies. It's the other way around that doesn't work too well.

 

[Bronzeage]

It is a bit of a mystery why some people in the civilian world want to belittle and intimidate others by using inappropriate pronouns.

It is a bit of a mystery why you think people 'in the civilian world' want to do that. You are begging the question.

Do you know why some people express hostility about using the pronoun a particular person prefers? Is there some altruistic motive behind this kind of behavior?

 

[Toni]

I think you should be required to use the lady's room instead of the men's room since you are sexually attracted to men.

Okay, you are completely free to think that. You clearly don't understand how sexed toilets work, and I'm not sure the ladies would be okay with your proposal, but you are free to propose it. And you are free to implement it in your pay toilet business if you want.

You'll have no problem using the facilities in the ladies. It's the other way around that doesn't work too well.

You over estimate the tolerance of ladies and their adherence to behavior and comportment typically associated with the word lady.

 

[ZiprHead]

Sex is binary and cannot change in mammals. This is not a faith statement but a biological fact.

"Gender identity" can be anything because it is a thought in a person's head. I have no interest in anybody's "gender identity", any more than I have an interest in hearing them evaluate their own personality.

It is a biological fact that gender identity is determined by the brain. That you use scare quotes, or call it just thought, and refer to it as a religion, is you denying biological reality and facts.

I use scare quotes for "gender identity" because I don't know what people mean when they say it. When they do define it, it is often circular.

"Gender identity" is a thought in a person's head. That it is determined by the brain is no more to the point than that all thoughts are determined by the brain.

That you are a gay man is also determined by the thoughts in your head. By your standards we should not have to respect that.

What on earth makes you think I want you to "respect" it? What demands do I make of your speech? Am I forcing you to utter things you do not believe? If so, how?

Gay people have demanded all sorts of things. They don't want to be derisively called faggot or queer. They demanded the right to marry their same sex. They demanded the right to join military service. They demanded to be treated differently than previously in many ways, housing, employment, etc..

 

[TomC]

First, when you say 'correct' pronoun usage, are you saying that what you regard as incorrect makes a false claim or implication?

No.

It's just rude.|

I would like to know whether you think that what Bob said, while not false, was grammatically incorrect.

No.
I don't think grammar is particularly relevant to this conversation either.

True story:
When I first joined this forum, I thought you were female. Around here, first names that end in "a" are nearly always female names. And it evoked "Maya Angelou".

I'm sure I referred to you more than once with female references that nobody bothered correcting. Eventually, you posted something indicating your gender as male. So I stopped doing that.

Because I try very hard not to be rude, at least not unintentionally rude. I try to only be rude when I mean it.
Tom

 

[TomC]

Why are gendered pronouns such a big deal, anyway?

IIDB has members who deliberately selected genders like , "No pls." and "Old Fart" and "agenderist". We have many members who just didn't put anything in the field at all.

It would be grammatically correct to refer to them as "it". "It" is a gender neutral singular pronoun. Why would that be a problem?
Tom

 

[TomC]

Upthread, you accused Mr. Meriwether of behaving unprofessionally.

Correct.
Misgendering a student is, on the face of it, unprofessional behavior.
I also pointed out that I'm sure that there's a lot more to the story.

But I think it's a dead cert that Mr. Meriwether doesn't see himself that way. He thinks he was perfectly reasonable and professional.

I'm not a mind reader, but I sincerely doubt that is true. I have no way of knowing, but I strongly suspect that Meriwether knows that his word choice was unprofessional. But the disproportionate response was the problem. Even more unprofessional behavior from the student and administrative staff is why he got a big settlement.

Why did you do that? You did it because that's your opinion.

It's my opinion that civility and respect for others is the best way to go.
Are you disagreeing?

Here's hypothetical question.

Restaurant worker gets a complaint about her French fries order.
Customer: "I didn't get as many fries as I usually do.

Professional:
A)You weigh at least 300 pounds. You shouldn't be eating fries at all.

That would be the honest and accurate response.

B) I'm sorry ma'am. You're right. Let me get some more fries and make your serving really big.

B) would be the correct response.

Because in professional settings, sometimes honest and accurate aren't the correct choices.
Tom

 

[Jarhyn]

Upthread, you accused Mr. Meriwether of behaving unprofessionally.

Correct.
Misgendering a student is, on the face of it, unprofessional behavior.
I also pointed out that I'm sure that there's a lot more to the story.

But I think it's a dead cert that Mr. Meriwether doesn't see himself that way. He thinks he was perfectly reasonable and professional.

I'm not a mind reader, but I sincerely doubt that is true. I have no way of knowing, but I strongly suspect that Meriwether knows that his word choice was unprofessional. But the disproportionate response was the problem. Even more unprofessional behavior from the student and administrative staff is why he got a big settlement.

Why did you do that? You did it because that's your opinion.

It's my opinion that civility and respect for others is the best way to go.
Are you disagreeing?

Here's hypothetical question.

Restaurant worker gets a complaint about her French fries order.
Customer: "I didn't get as many fries as I usually do.

Professional:
A)You weigh at least 300 pounds. You shouldn't be eating fries at all.

That would be the honest and accurate response.

B) I'm sorry ma'am. You're right. Let me get some more fries and make your serving really big.

B) would be the correct response.

Because in professional settings, sometimes honest and accurate aren't the correct choices.
Tom

They are both "right", because they both speak to different qualities of the situation.

The issue is that when someone orders fries, they consent only and explicitly to "I give you money, you give me X quantity of fries, and an experience that is not averse."

"A" is an accurate and honest response but fails the requirement. The requirement includes "an experience that is not averse", as well as "X quantity of fries".

The contract is written on the doors of the building, on the menu, parts of the contract even are written into the money itself!

"B" is the correct answer because it is the only answer that fulfills the requirements of the consent to have even handed the money across the counter.

So while A is true, it is not true that A is a correct response in the situation.

(However it looks, this is me agreeing with you).

 

[Bomb#20]

Upthread, you accused Mr. Meriwether of behaving unprofessionally.

Correct.
Misgendering a student is, on the face of it, unprofessional behavior.

You know the word "misgendering" is a propaganda term that assumes facts not in evidence, don't you?

But I think it's a dead cert that Mr. Meriwether doesn't see himself that way. He thinks he was perfectly reasonable and professional.

I'm not a mind reader, but I sincerely doubt that is true. I have no way of knowing, but I strongly suspect that Meriwether knows that his word choice was unprofessional. But the disproportionate response was the problem. Even more unprofessional behavior from the student and administrative staff is why he got a big settlement.

Why did you do that? You did it because that's your opinion.

It's my opinion that civility and respect for others is the best way to go.
Are you disagreeing?

Here's hypothetical question. <snip>

No, I wasn't disagreeing -- I wasn't offering any opinion at all on whether he was professional, and I wasn't asking you to justify your opinion on that point. I was using your comment as an in-the-wild example of a familiar phenomenon: people speaking their minds instead of taking for granted that it's their duty to speak other people's minds. I was merely pointing out that you based your choice of what to say on your opinion -- you didn't consult Meriwether's opinion. But you claim "The only important thing that correct pronoun usage depends upon is that person's opinion." So I'm asking you to justify your apparent double standard -- you appear to be either assuming that the rules for pronouns are different from the rules for adjectives, or assuming that the rules for Meriwether are different from the rules for you.

 

[TomC]

You know the word "misgendering" is a propaganda term that assumes facts not in evidence, don't you?

No.
I don't know that.

Quite the contrary, I know what misgendering means. It isn't a propoganda term.

I've been misgendered. Only a couple of times. Drunken assholes who think they're being clever by referring to me as a "she". Assholes drunk enough to think that referring to a 6'+, 200#, person with broad shoulders and a thick beard and hairy chest as "she" makes them more manly or something.

This didn't always work out well. It didn't happen often.
But yeah, I do know what misgendering means. You don't seem to know what it means.
Tom

 

[Bomb#20]

You know the word "misgendering" is a propaganda term that assumes facts not in evidence, don't you?

No.
I don't know that.

Quite the contrary, I know what misgendering means. It isn't a propoganda term.

I've been misgendered. Only a couple of times. Drunken assholes who think they're being clever by referring to me as a "she". Assholes drunk enough to think that referring to a 6'+, 200#, person with broad shoulders and a thick beard and hairy chest as "she" makes them more manly or something.

This didn't always work out well. It didn't happen often.
But yeah, I do know what misgendering means. You don't seem to know what it means.
Tom

But here you aren't using the word in the sense that pronoun-war activists generally use it. You're using it to mean making a gendered reference to a person that doesn't match the person's gender. They typically use it to mean making a gendered reference to a person that doesn't match the person's gender identity. It's their equivocation between gender and gender identity, and their implicit premise that it's incorrect to distinguish gender from gender identity, that are the facts not in evidence that their usage of the word assumes. If they used it the way you were just using it then it would not be a propaganda term.

 

[Bomb#20]

But here you aren't using the word in the sense that pronoun-war activists generally use it.

[removed]

Fair enough. By pronoun-war activists, I was referring to the pronoun-police. I take your point that the pronoun-anarchists also qualify as pronoun-war activists; but then, they're rarely the ones using the word "misgendering".

 

[Angra Mainyu]

But here you aren't using the word in the sense that pronoun-war activists generally use it.

[removed]

Fair enough. By pronoun-war activists, I was referring to the pronoun-police. I take your point that the pronoun-anarchists also qualify as pronoun-war activists; but then, they're rarely the ones using the word "misgendering".

As far as I can tell, TomC is part of the pronoun-police, given his moral condemnation of those who do not use pronouns in a way that matches the preferences of the person they are speaking about. Or by 'pronouns police' are you talking about those who would use force or the threat of force (passing laws, etc.) only, leaving aside public judgments of condemnation? (or some other group of activists?)

 

[Angra Mainyu]

No.
I don't think grammar is particularly relevant to this conversation either.

Okay, so let me point out what appears to be a potential case of miscommunication here.

I don't ask for feedback and have never received feedback about using pronouns, because the correct pronoun for somebody doesn't depend on the person's opinion.

I completely disagree. The only important thing that correct pronoun usage depends upon is that person's opinion.

You claim that the correct pronoun usage depends upon is that person's opinion, so using a pronoun against that opinion would be incorrect. But it would not be grammatically incorrect. Nor would it be a false statement. What you are saying is that it would be morally wrong, even if the statement is true and gramatically correct. Metaphor may well have been talking about to grammar, even if he also holds there is nothing morally wrong with it.

So, why do you think it is morally wrong?

Is it because it offends the person they are speaking about?

If so, then let me point out the following:

1. Sometimes it surely does not offend that person. Suppose for example that the person in question is dead.

2. You do not seem to have the same standards about other speech that offends people we are talking about, but you have not provided any clues as to what the difference might be. Let me give you two examples:

a. If I say that Catholics are mistaken in their religious beliefs, that may well offend them. It surely offends some of them if they read my words.

b. Consider Metaphor's example, slightly modified: suppose Jack claims that Jack is offended unless the pronouns 'bug/bugself' are used to talk about bugself. You do not believe it is morally wrong to refer to bugself by a pronoun other than bug preferred one, right? But why? Bug claims bug will be offended if different pronouns are used. Is it because you do not believe bugself? We may even assume bug is sincere, for the sake of the argument, and you have good reasons to think bug is sincere.

3. There are actual examples of people who have all sorts of preferences regarding pronouns. They are not limited to he/him, she/her, etc., but any sort of term. Additionally, there are those who do not want others to use any pronouns at all when speaking about them.

 

[TomC]

As far as I can tell, TomC is part of the pronoun-police,

I'm not sure why it believes that I am part of the pronoun-police.

I think that polite pronoun usage is civil and respectful. Unfortunately, It doesn't think that.
Tom

 

[Angra Mainyu]

As far as I can tell, TomC is part of the pronoun-police,

I'm not sure why it believes that I am part of the pronoun-police.

I think that polite pronoun usage is civil and respectful. Unfortunately, It doesn't think that.
Tom

I'm not sure whom you mean by "'it". But no matter, the reason I believe that you are part of the pronoun police is that make a public moral condemnation on those who do not use pronouns in the way you want them to; moreover, you accuse them of having nefarious intentions they usually do not have.

 

[TomC]

I'm not sure whom you mean by "'it".

I mean you.

You. Angra Mainyu.

I'm not rude unintentionally. I'm expressing myself here very clearly.
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I think you should be required to use the lady's room instead of the men's room since you are sexually attracted to men.

Okay, you are completely free to think that. You clearly don't understand how sexed toilets work, and I'm not sure the ladies would be okay with your proposal, but you are free to propose it. And you are free to implement it in your pay toilet business if you want.

You'll have no problem using the facilities in the ladies. It's the other way around that doesn't work too well.

You over estimate the tolerance of ladies and their adherence to behavior and comportment typically associated with the word lady.

I'm talking about mechanically. Ladies rooms are full of toilets. Guys have no problem using toilets, it's what we usually have at home.

Ladies generally aren't going to be able to make much use of a urinal.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

I'm not sure whom you mean by "'it".

I mean you.

You. Angra Mainyu.

I'm not rude unintentionally. I'm expressing myself here very clearly.
Tom

Yes, you are clearly attacking me. But your point fails entirely. You are apparently trying to show me that I feel offended by your usage of the pronoun 'it' to refer to me. But that is not remotely so. If you, say, actually called everyone 'it' because you like the sound of it or because it is your language or because it is your religion or whatever, I would find your usage weird, but would not be offended by it.


No, the reasons I find it offensive are:


1. It is intended to offend.


2. You make false accusations that you ought not to believe are true. For example, you claim that I do not believe that "polite pronoun usage is civil and respectful". I never said or suggested any of the sort.


Despite your attack, I am trying to engage you in a discussion on the substance, but you post very little on that front, which makes it difficult. Let me ask you: are you interested in a discussion and/or debate about the matters at hand, or only in condemning me and perhaps some other posters? When you condemn some of those who disagree with you, are you willing to entertain arguments we can give in our defense?

If you are willing to consider a discussion of the substance and/or arguments we can give in our defense, I raised some challenges to your view here. I hope you will consider them.

If you are only interested in condemning me but without engaging my arguments, please state so.

 

[TomC]

As far as I can tell, TomC is part of the pronoun-police, given his moral condemnation of those who do not use pronouns in a way that matches the preferences of the person they are speaking about.

Yes, you are clearly attacking me.

I am attacking the opinions you have posted.

You generally ignore what I post.

So, I'll ask again, "Why do you think that I'm part of the 'pronoun police', while you and Metaphor, Sigmathezeta, etc. aren't?
Tom