Good news in the pronoun wars: $400k payout for professor

[ZiprHead]

Sex is binary and cannot change in mammals. This is not a faith statement but a biological fact.

"Gender identity" can be anything because it is a thought in a person's head. I have no interest in anybody's "gender identity", any more than I have an interest in hearing them evaluate their own personality.

It is a biological fact that gender identity is determined by the brain. That you use scare quotes, or call it just thought, and refer to it as a religion, is you denying biological reality and facts.

I use scare quotes for "gender identity" because I don't know what people mean when they say it. When they do define it, it is often circular.

"Gender identity" is a thought in a person's head. That it is determined by the brain is no more to the point than that all thoughts are determined by the brain.

That you are a gay man is also determined by the thoughts in your head. By your standards we should not have to respect that.

What on earth makes you think I want you to "respect" it? What demands do I make of your speech? Am I forcing you to utter things you do not believe? If so, how?

Gay people have demanded all sorts of things. They don't want to be derisively called faggot or queer. They demanded the right to marry their same sex. They demanded the right to join military service. They demanded to be treated differently than previously in many ways, housing, employment, etc..

Gay people did not demand you call them heterosexual and pretend to believe it.

Nothing in that addresses my comment.

 

[Bomb#20]

Some people get into a rather idiotic mode of thought in which they confuse being chastised socially with being policed.

You should probably write to the producers of Seinfeld and lecture them about the Holocaust.

 

[Jarhyn]

And then some folks who tend to confuse being policed with being chastised spat some word salad and stepped in Godwin's.

Frankly, I couldn't give a shit less about your meme or what some or other asshole conservative in-joke is meant to imply.

Which, Someone making reference to it in that way, IS actually anti-Semitic content, though Seinfeld itself is clearly not, as the show's producers and actors are quite openly and proudly Jewish.

Rather, the anti-Semitism stems particularly from dragging their content through some political battlefield shit hole as this and using it to accuse someone of idiotic Holocaust denial or whatever mud you are trying to attach to that volley.

 

[Jarhyn]

I've seen teachers bully students before. Worse, I've seen teachers get into oppositional feuds with students before.

I was once hauled out myself in the middle of a biology test that involved timed dissection and analysis in which I was partnered with someone who would not have even passed the class without me in the room, because, frankly, I as a student I his class did personally question evolution, rejected his authoritarian requirements as to learning model involving taking notes, and on the questions involving evolution gave religious answers.

I still finished the dissection, passed the test, and did the dissection, after he stole five minutes of my time of it to accuse me of cheating on my grades. Not because I did (I did not; it was another kid who filled my grade in and I expect I know who it was, EP) but rather he accused me because he didn't think I was as smart as I am because I was hard-headedly religious.

I clearly have different views these days, and am am avid materialist, and argue that by evidence the only honest position on creators is "ZERO or more, but just focus on the ZERO for now."

The fact is, sometimes teachers are assholes like that.

What does this have to do with a student being bullied? Well, I was an idiot child and religious prick but the teacher still had no right to treat me like such a one as did not understand biological realities: he could have accepted this seeming contradiction and perhaps had some faith that my mind would fight clear of it through the evidence.

And here it does not matter what the teacher thinks or wishes to think: if some would rather teachers not teach children about gender identity things, it is not their place to assign definitive personal labels to the student that the student does not accept.

They could have used they/them, and if the student objected to this abstention, then I would put the student out. Any reasonable person would.

But being outspoken about a lack of reasonable respect is not grounds for bullying, especially from a teacher.

I don't know what happened here, and frankly I don't fucking care.

I do think there are situations where teachers need to get reprimanded for being assholes to students. Clearly I think there's a reasonable option here: abstention through use of the non-gendered referent: they/them.

I'm going to chastise people when they can't at least be polite enough to abstain.

 

[Metaphor]

Sex is binary and cannot change in mammals. This is not a faith statement but a biological fact.

"Gender identity" can be anything because it is a thought in a person's head. I have no interest in anybody's "gender identity", any more than I have an interest in hearing them evaluate their own personality.

It is a biological fact that gender identity is determined by the brain. That you use scare quotes, or call it just thought, and refer to it as a religion, is you denying biological reality and facts.

I use scare quotes for "gender identity" because I don't know what people mean when they say it. When they do define it, it is often circular.

"Gender identity" is a thought in a person's head. That it is determined by the brain is no more to the point than that all thoughts are determined by the brain.

That you are a gay man is also determined by the thoughts in your head. By your standards we should not have to respect that.

What on earth makes you think I want you to "respect" it? What demands do I make of your speech? Am I forcing you to utter things you do not believe? If so, how?

Gay people have demanded all sorts of things. They don't want to be derisively called faggot or queer. They demanded the right to marry their same sex. They demanded the right to join military service. They demanded to be treated differently than previously in many ways, housing, employment, etc..

Gay people did not demand you call them heterosexual and pretend to believe it.

Nothing in that addresses my comment.

Gay people demanded that the State does not imprison them for being gay, true. And that the State does not discriminate against us in the distribution of State-distributed benefits based on the sex of our partners.

But if any gay person asks you to look at them and call them heterosexual, you have the right to refuse. And you should.

 

[ZiprHead]

But if any gay person asks you to look at them and call them heterosexual, you have the right to refuse. And you should.

There's lots of closeted gay people that do that.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Like most bizarre irregularities that give second-language learners such misery

What are you talking about?
I have never had any misery with english pronouns.
In fact, compared to russian and german you really have nothing.

Fundamentally, it comes down to the fact that it's far easier to learn words than to learn word concepts. If your mother tongue uses the same gender system as the language you're learning you won't have a problem. If your mother tongue uses a gender system that's a superset of the language you're learning you won't have much trouble. If your mother tongue uses a simpler or incompatible gender system than the language you're learning (for example, a Chinese speaker learning English. Only family words are gendered, everything else is inherently ungendered) then you have lots of headaches.

 

[SigmatheZeta]

[removed for consistency]

Call me "she" and "her," s'il vous plait, merci beaucoup.

 

[SigmatheZeta]

Why are gendered pronouns such a big deal, anyway?

IIDB has members who deliberately selected genders like , "No pls." and "Old Fart" and "agenderist". We have many members who just didn't put anything in the field at all.

It would be grammatically correct to refer to them as "it". "It" is a gender neutral singular pronoun. Why would that be a problem?
Tom

Why is it such a big deal if I correct someone by saying "she" or "her" when that person uses "he" or "him"?

It does slightly annoy me if that person calls me "he" or "him," but then it is actually a pleasure to have a chance to smile and say to that person, "she" or "her" and then, if that person apologizes, "no need to apologize because I do not entirely look the part, yet. Give me another year, and it will seem more natural." I am actually quite polite about it. In the context, it is really not a big deal, but it is a fun way for me to share something about myself with someone that I will be working with.

It is actually shocking to me that some people rage at me over it.

 

[SigmatheZeta]

And for the record, I am NOT "pronoun police." I do correct people to what I prefer, but I prefer to make love, not war. I like to use the mistakes as a chance to talk about the fact that I am transgender and how much better I have felt since starting HRT. It actually makes a good conversation starter, actually. I don't usually take umbrage over it at all.

However, there are some people, who will not really remain nameless, who deliberately misgender me with the expressed intention of making a slight. Curiously, other transgender people are more likely to do that to me if they have a disagreement with me over an unrelated subject. They know very well that it's annoying, so they do it deliberately to annoy. Just because someone is transgender does not mean that someone is necessarily a good person. It is really a nasty way for them to behave. When transphobes do it, it's really water off a duck's back. I know that transphobes only do stuff like that out of insecurity. The deliberate misgendering then doesn't really hurt as much as it just comes across as rather pathetic.

What is really more insulting is when people demonize me. For people that claim not to be afraid of me, they sure demonize me a lot.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

[removed for consistency]
Thanks for drawing my attention to this. It was the wrong thread (though still a good read). The thread I was looking for is this one.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

I like to use the mistakes as a chance to talk about the fact that I am transgender and how much better I have felt since starting HRT.

Those are not mistakes, even assuming for the sake of the argument that Woke English is consistent. The pronoun usage that is not allowed here is nevertheless grammatically correct. And it makes no false statements. I explained why that is so here.

However, there are some people, who will not really remain nameless, who deliberately misgender me with the expressed intention of making a slight.

I have not seen a single case of that. I will ask you to provide evidence in the form of at least one link.

On the other hand, I have seen you falsely accuse me of misgendering you here, where you also carried out other unwarranted attacks.

Meanwhile, I will say that accusations of misgendering, as made by assorted activists, are generally false, as I explained here (no, that does not apply to TomC's example; that was indeed a case of misgendering, because TomC is a man, in non-Woke English, and the misgenderers were speaking in non-Woke English almost certainly; furthermore, he is also a man in Woke English if we assume Woke English uses words coherently).

 

[Jarhyn]

[removed]
Thanks for drawing my attention to this. It was the wrong thread (though still a good read). The thread I was looking for is this one.

So.. another closed, locked thread, closed for JAQing, started by a troll who is banned.

Go back to those hills, but be careful, they're in the shadow of a pillbox.

Or don't be careful. It'll be funny.

 

[SigmatheZeta]

{removed]

I called you "SigmatheZeta". It is the user name you picked.

I also happen to be a transgender woman, and politely asserting that I am a woman has been recommended to me by three independent therapists and doctors in three different disciplines. I tend to feel more comfortable in the society of others if they refer to me as if I were a woman, and most people are willing enough to oblige.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

[removed]
So.. another closed, locked thread, closed for JAQing, started by a troll who is banned.

Go back to those hills, but be careful, they're in the shadow of a pillbox.

Or don't be careful. It'll be funny.

Yes, the threads tend to get locked, and sometimes I am unable to respond to what is posted right before they get locked - or maybe after. It happens. People can read the threads and assess by themselves who was right. Unfortunately, nearly all will be mistaken, and on your side. But you will win. Your religion is on the rise.

 

[SigmatheZeta]

I like to use the mistakes as a chance to talk about the fact that I am transgender and how much better I have felt since starting HRT.

Those are not mistakes, even assuming for the sake of the argument that Woke English is consistent. The pronoun usage that is not allowed here is nevertheless grammatically correct. And it makes no false statements. I explained why that is so here.

Referring to a woman as a woman is just a matter of good social graces. In most quarters of western 21st Century society, this also applies to how you should discuss transgender women.

However, I do not usually mind too terribly if someone is rude. I am a dragon. Dragons fart. We occasionally take a dump on your roof as we fly over. We do not have very good manners. We are incredibly blunt and shockingly frank. We are not in a position to be thin-skinned.

Nevertheless, even we dragons acknowledge if we have done something rude when someone points out that we have done something rude, and if we do happen to offend someone, we apologize handsomely. That is not merely a matter of good manners, but it is just caring how other people in your society feel.

Even a cis-gender dragon, although that dragon might call me by the wrong pronoun often, would say, "Oh, I beg your pardon, Miss," and continue whatever he was saying without any further pause. I know that he will make the same mistake again because dragons are rude, but the handsome apology afterward makes him more likeable than he would have been if he had not been rude, to begin with. I therefore never quite mind it when dragons are rude.

You are nothing like a dragon at all, though. It comes across as quite thin-skinned if you become defensive or evasive when someone only wants to gently correct you in regard to the manners they expect out of others.

However, there are some people, who will not really remain nameless, who deliberately misgender me with the expressed intention of making a slight.

I have not seen a single case of that. I will ask you to provide evidence in the form of at least one link.

On the other hand, I have seen you falsely accuse me of misgendering you here, where you also carried out other unwarranted attacks.

Meanwhile, I will say that accusations of misgendering, as made by assorted activists, are generally false, as I explained here (no, that does not apply to TomC's example; that was indeed a case of misgendering, because TomC is a man, in non-Woke English, and the misgenderers were speaking in non-Woke English almost certainly; furthermore, he is also a man in Woke English if we assume Woke English uses words coherently).

You went out of your way to talk about me in the third-person, rather than in the second-person, in response to one of my posts. That is unusual behavior. Most people talk in the second-person, at some point, when they are responding to someone else's post, even if they intend to start talking about the person they are responding to in the third-person afterward. You are also perfectly aware that I prefer to be called "she" and "her" rather than "he" and him" as you did in that response. You really did go to a foolish amount of trouble just in order to deliver an insult.

Coming out of you, though, such an insult only makes you look like a fearful and insecure, little man.

 

[laughing dog]

Yes, the threads tend to get locked, and sometimes I am unable to respond to what is posted right before they get locked - or maybe after. It happens. People can read the threads and assess by themselves who was right. Unfortunately, nearly all will be mistaken, and on your side. But you will win. Your religion is on the rise.

Ah, the dour grapes of a bankrupt purveyor of religion in the marketplace of ideas.

 

[SigmatheZeta]

I want to reiterate, it is not misgendering that I find insulting, but what I find insulting is being demonized for caring enough about myself to point out how I prefer to be called. Being called "pronoun police" for saying "she, please," in non-hostile tones is just going too far. It is demonizing and fear-mongering.

 

[IIDB Staff]

========================================
Reminder to all posters:

It is a violation of the TOU to deliberately misgender another user. We have a gender field for anyone who cares to use it. If a person’s gender or preferred pronouns are listed, and you repeatedly use something different, that is an insult to another member and that is against the TOU.


The rules do not care if you are bothered by this. Those are the rules.
No personal insults, and it includes misgendering.

People who repeatedly violate this will have demonstrated a decision that they do not wish to abide the terms of use of this site, and they will be escorted to the door.


No personal insults. If you don’t like that, go post somewhere that doesn’t have it as a rule.

========================================

 

[SigmatheZeta]

*writes one hundred times on a chalkboard, "I will not quote things that need to go bye-bye"*

I do make a distinction between accidentally misgendering someone and misgendering someone out of nastiness.

I have even managed to remain friends with someone that insisted that he only pronouns people based on their birth sex. I might have said something very coarse to him over it, but we remained on good terms because he was respectful toward me over other things. It was clear that that person had a belief that I disagreed with rather than an active intention of being nasty toward me.

But it's weird when someone is just being destructive. I don't get that kind of behavior.