Greenpeace thugs force Shell icebreaker to turn around

[ksen]

Maybe we can send some of our police officers out there to arrest the protesters and have them all killed while in custody? Would that be an acceptable solution to the problem, Derec?

You can't prove the thugs didn't present a threat. I mean they are thugs after all.

I think I saw one reaching quickly for his manpurse!

 

[Valjean]

The corporatists are skilled at inflammatory rhetoric, it must be admitted.

These are a bunch of concerned, self-sacrificing idealists using Gandhian non-violence (Satyagraha) to prevent an environmental catastrophe. They have no money or political clout to speak of, but are willing to place the only tool they have -- their own bodies -- before the corporate juggernaut.
Naturally the petroleum industry wants them crucified and they have the money to mount a very convincing propaganda attack.
Evidently some here have been taken in.

 

[abaddon]

Because protesters protest things to express their opinion publicly. These ecomentalists' goal was not to express their opinion but to prevent others from going about their business.

Preventing people from doing lawful things is not protesting. Let me put it in terms you and some of the others here can understand. If you hold placards outside an abortion clinic is protesting. Preventing people from entering the clinic is not.

Their MO is to impose their will onto others by preventing them to go about their business, causing them monetary damages. They should be liable for these damages.

That's the kind of stuff Roman patricians said about Spartacus.

Unlawful = wrong or bad? No, not always. Lawful = right or good? No, not always.

 

[Valjean]

That's the kind of stuff the British Raj said about Gandhi, the Nazis about White Rose and Nixon about the peace marchers.

 

[Derec]

These are a bunch of concerned, self-sacrificing idealists using Gandhian non-violence (Satyagraha) to prevent an environmental catastrophe.

What environmental catastrophe?

They have no money or political clout to speak of, but are willing to place the only tool they have -- their own bodies -- before the corporate juggernaut.

Greenpeace actually has quite a bit of money.

Naturally the petroleum industry wants them crucified and they have the money to mount a very convincing propaganda attack.
Evidently some here have been taken in.

Blockading a ship is a crime. They should be arrested and charged. What's wrong with that? Unfortunately Portlandia police/DA is unlikely do do anything about it. I do not think they arrested any of the illegal blockaders.

 

[Derec]

They are committing acts of civil disobedience. I still don't see how that makes them "thugs".

Civil disobedience == crimes committed when you agree with the cause.
If a group were to prevent women entering an abortion clinic do you think police should not arrest them?

 

[arkirk]

This is the latest actual article on this: Shell Icebreaker Leaves Dock, Heads For Protesters but there is a live feed here.

Greenpeace should be liable for any cost associated with the delays. If they had to pay for their antics they would either calm down or go bankrupt. The actual Greenpeace "protesters" who forced the ship to turn around should be arrested.

You really feel we need a lot more oil don't you? I personally support those protesters. We have to start to turn around this energy insanity somewhere, and not just keep stumbling along ruining environment after environment with oil pollution till we finally hit a tipping point where all of humanity pays a heavy price. You are concerned about Shell Oil who has messes and pollutions all around the world. Let them get on board with alternative energy and quit tearing our world up and then shitting on it with its oil pollution.

 

[fromderinside]

They are committing acts of civil disobedience. I still don't see how that makes them "thugs".

Civil disobedience == crimes committed when you agree with the cause.
If a group were to prevent women entering an abortion clinic do you think police should not arrest them?

Derec's idea of parity when he's still walking on the tilted deck.

To be specific when control freaks can still get away with making women seem in the wrong when they defend something for which they fought to attain and preserve a right and compare with those bad environmentalists protesting the probable destruction of sensitive environment against a corporate giant that routinely buys favor and judgments to do so, one is standing on high side the uneven playing floor and crying foul.

 

[Derec]

You really feel we need a lot more oil don't you?

Yes, I do. While I support efforts to get away from oil like electric cars and better public transit in cities these changes are slow (and in case of public transit require much political will which is not always there) and thus we will need oil for several more decades. Do not let relatively low oil prices fool you, that is only a temporary reprieve. Thus it i quite sensible to develop oil resources in the Arctic.

I personally support those protesters. We have to start to turn around this energy insanity somewhere, and not just keep stumbling along ruining environment after environment with oil pollution till we finally hit a tipping point where all of humanity pays a heavy price.

You have the right to think that Arctic drilling is wrong. But they got all the necessary permits etc. and ecomentalist activists do not have the right to block their passage. Just like you can agree with pro-lifers but they do not have the right to block women's access to abortion clinics.

You are concerned about Shell Oil who has messes and pollutions all around the world. Let them get on board with alternative energy and quit tearing our world up and then shitting on it with its oil pollution.

I still remember the Greenpeace campaign against Shell in the mid-90s where they tried to sink Brent Spar and Greenpeace falsely claimed there was a lot of oil sludge still on board. Greenpeace are not the most honest of actors and their claims of pollution tend to be exaggerated.

 

[Toni]

Yes, I do. While I support efforts to get away from oil like electric cars and better public transit in cities these changes are slow (and in case of public transit require much political will which is not always there) and thus we will need oil for several more decades. Do not let relatively low oil prices fool you, that is only a temporary reprieve. Thus it i quite sensible to develop oil resources in the Arctic.

I personally support those protesters. We have to start to turn around this energy insanity somewhere, and not just keep stumbling along ruining environment after environment with oil pollution till we finally hit a tipping point where all of humanity pays a heavy price.

You have the right to think that Arctic drilling is wrong. But they got all the necessary permits etc. and ecomentalist activists do not have the right to block their passage. Just like you can agree with pro-lifers but they do not have the right to block women's access to abortion clinics.

You are concerned about Shell Oil who has messes and pollutions all around the world. Let them get on board with alternative energy and quit tearing our world up and then shitting on it with its oil pollution.

I still remember the Greenpeace campaign against Shell in the mid-90s where they tried to sink Brent Spar and Greenpeace falsely claimed there was a lot of oil sludge still on board. Greenpeace are not the most honest of actors and their claims of pollution tend to be exaggerated.

You are real by the books, aren't you? As long as you agree with the law.

 

[arkirk]

Yes, I do. While I support efforts to get away from oil like electric cars and better public transit in cities these changes are slow (and in case of public transit require much political will which is not always there) and thus we will need oil for several more decades. Do not let relatively low oil prices fool you, that is only a temporary reprieve. Thus it i quite sensible to develop oil resources in the Arctic.

I personally support those protesters. We have to start to turn around this energy insanity somewhere, and not just keep stumbling along ruining environment after environment with oil pollution till we finally hit a tipping point where all of humanity pays a heavy price.

You have the right to think that Arctic drilling is wrong. But they got all the necessary permits etc. and ecomentalist activists do not have the right to block their passage. Just like you can agree with pro-lifers but they do not have the right to block women's access to abortion clinics.

You are concerned about Shell Oil who has messes and pollutions all around the world. Let them get on board with alternative energy and quit tearing our world up and then shitting on it with its oil pollution.

I still remember the Greenpeace campaign against Shell in the mid-90s where they tried to sink Brent Spar and Greenpeace falsely claimed there was a lot of oil sludge still on board. Greenpeace are not the most honest of actors and their claims of pollution tend to be exaggerated.

Use your head, Derec. There is glut of this filty fuel on the market right now....and yet where I live the cost of a gallon of gas is over $4. These people (Shell, BP, Chevron et al) are market manipulating crooks and everything they do is only in the interest of forestalling the alternative energies that will supplant them on the world market. There is no reason to destroy the arctic. Greenpeace is one of the most honest actors on the world stage and you know it. You are just ranting because you think you want things to continue as they are for the forseeable future.

Permits do not make something right or safe or responsible. The Deepwater Horizon was permitted and look where that went!

 

[Axulus]

This is the latest actual article on this: Shell Icebreaker Leaves Dock, Heads For Protesters but there is a live feed here.

Greenpeace should be liable for any cost associated with the delays. If they had to pay for their antics they would either calm down or go bankrupt. The actual Greenpeace "protesters" who forced the ship to turn around should be arrested.

You really feel we need a lot more oil don't you? I personally support those protesters. We have to start to turn around this energy insanity somewhere, and not just keep stumbling along ruining environment after environment with oil pollution till we finally hit a tipping point where all of humanity pays a heavy price. You are concerned about Shell Oil who has messes and pollutions all around the world. Let them get on board with alternative energy and quit tearing our world up and then shitting on it with its oil pollution.

Do you think the protesters should be arrested?

 

[Axulus]

The corporatists are skilled at inflammatory rhetoric, it must be admitted.

These are a bunch of concerned, self-sacrificing idealists using Gandhian non-violence (Satyagraha) to prevent an environmental catastrophe. They have no money or political clout to speak of, but are willing to place the only tool they have -- their own bodies -- before the corporate juggernaut.
Naturally the petroleum industry wants them crucified and they have the money to mount a very convincing propaganda attack.
Evidently some here have been taken in.

Unlike these protesters, Shell is actually providing the world something vital: energy resources. Their "juggernaut" status is just a reflection of the quantity of energy they provide the globe.

It's amazing how so many on the left want to bite the hand that feeds them. They live a life of luxury and privilege and can therefore afford extensive alternatives and protest that "filthy" form of energy fit only for the lower classes.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

They are committing acts of civil disobedience. I still don't see how that makes them "thugs".

Civil disobedience == crimes committed when you agree with the cause.
If a group were to prevent women entering an abortion clinic do you think police should not arrest them?

Being arrested for trespassing and other forms of civil disobedience (which usually implies one is doing something that'll get one arrested, but isn't a serious crime) doesn't make one a "thug".

 

[atrib]

You really feel we need a lot more oil don't you? I personally support those protesters. We have to start to turn around this energy insanity somewhere, and not just keep stumbling along ruining environment after environment with oil pollution till we finally hit a tipping point where all of humanity pays a heavy price. You are concerned about Shell Oil who has messes and pollutions all around the world. Let them get on board with alternative energy and quit tearing our world up and then shitting on it with its oil pollution.

Do you think the protesters should be arrested?

And killed off in custody? They blockaded a ship, therefore they all deserve to to die!

Maybe Derec has a point. Life would be a lot simpler without all the freedom and due process nonsense.

 

[Axulus]

Do you think the protesters should be arrested?

And killed off in custody? They blockaded a ship, therefore they all deserve to to die!

Maybe Derec has a point. Life would be a lot simpler without all the freedom and due process nonsense.

I don't know how things work in South Carolina, but in my area being arrested typically isn't the equivalent of the death penalty.

 

[Jayjay]

Yes, I do. While I support efforts to get away from oil like electric cars and better public transit in cities these changes are slow (and in case of public transit require much political will which is not always there) and thus we will need oil for several more decades. Do not let relatively low oil prices fool you, that is only a temporary reprieve. Thus it i quite sensible to develop oil resources in the Arctic.

I personally support those protesters. We have to start to turn around this energy insanity somewhere, and not just keep stumbling along ruining environment after environment with oil pollution till we finally hit a tipping point where all of humanity pays a heavy price.

You have the right to think that Arctic drilling is wrong. But they got all the necessary permits etc. and ecomentalist activists do not have the right to block their passage. Just like you can agree with pro-lifers but they do not have the right to block women's access to abortion clinics.

Thats a poor analogy. Blocking a person's access to a medical service is far worse than blocking relatively minor financial loss and possibly tarnished public image to a corporation. Shell is a big corporation, they can fight their own battles and I see absolutely no need for anyone else to get outraged about it.

As for Portland police, they are not the private security of Shell and they might have more important things to do than to stop a few people rappeling down from a bridge, such as preventing bicycle accidents or interrogating lesbian bookstore owners.

[youtube]mQdu9SfSrxE[/youtube]

 

[atrib]

And killed off in custody? They blockaded a ship, therefore they all deserve to to die!

Maybe Derec has a point. Life would be a lot simpler without all the freedom and due process nonsense.

I don't know how things work in South Carolina, but in my area being arrested typically isn't the equivalent of the death penalty.

You would think so. But just a few months ago a cop shot and killed a person in the South Carolina Lowcountry. The person was trying to flee from a routine traffic stop, and the cop decided to dispense with all the due process nonsense and just shoot him in the back while he was trying to run away. Maybe you live somewhere better, where cops actually serve and protect the communities they police.

 

[Axulus]

Yes, I do. While I support efforts to get away from oil like electric cars and better public transit in cities these changes are slow (and in case of public transit require much political will which is not always there) and thus we will need oil for several more decades. Do not let relatively low oil prices fool you, that is only a temporary reprieve. Thus it i quite sensible to develop oil resources in the Arctic.

You have the right to think that Arctic drilling is wrong. But they got all the necessary permits etc. and ecomentalist activists do not have the right to block their passage. Just like you can agree with pro-lifers but they do not have the right to block women's access to abortion clinics.

Thats a poor analogy. Blocking a person's access to a medical service is far worse than blocking relatively minor financial loss and possibly tarnished public image to a corporation. Shell is a big corporation, they can fight their own battles and I see absolutely no need for anyone else to get outraged about it.

As for Portland police, they are not the private security of Shell and they might have more important things to do than to stop a few people rappeling down from a bridge, such as preventing bicycle accidents or interrogating lesbian bookstore owners.

[youtube]mQdu9SfSrxE[/youtube]

How did you determine the financial loss was minor? What is the daily value of the ice breaker ship and the wages of the crew that operates it?

On top of that, there are losses to the rest of society due to disrupted energy supplies. This incident is a small part of the global energy picture, but that doesn't make the impact of the disruption zero.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't know how things work in South Carolina, but in my area being arrested typically isn't the equivalent of the death penalty.

You would think so. But just a few months ago a cop shot and killed a person in the South Carolina Lowcountry. The person was trying to flee from a routine traffic stop, and the cop decided to dispense with all the due process nonsense and just shoot him in the back while he was trying to run away. Maybe you live somewhere better, where cops actually serve and protect the communities they police.

What percent of total police encounters involving an arrest end in death?

 

[Derec]

Derec's idea of parity when he's still walking on the tilted deck.

Huh?

To be specific when control freaks can still get away with making women seem in the wrong when they defend something for which they fought to attain and preserve a right and compare with those bad environmentalists protesting the probable destruction of sensitive environment against a corporate giant that routinely buys favor and judgments to do so, one is standing on high side the uneven playing floor and crying foul.

I was merely pointing out the similarity of blocking the passage of a ship doing something legal with blocking women doing something legal because of a political disagreement). Just because you disagree with somebody doing something does not give you the right to prevent people doing it.