Guy gets beaten up by police for calling his sister

[barbos]

Guy was beaten not because he called his sister, he was "beaten" because he insisted on disobeying and resisting police order.

Stupidly trivial observations.

The question is "Should the officer be a danger to people for minor things?"

Disobeying reasonable and lawful order is not a minor thing.

The answer cannot be along the lines of "this is how it is"; there's no good reason at all to even point it out. To be a non-stupid answer it must be an argument for or against (well, really, just against) police officers getting violent when there's no direct assault on their persons.

The guy became violent, not the police.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I agree, their use of force was very, very excessive and I hope the cops are punished. But as I say, you play a dangerous game when acting like a dick in these situations.

Yes, and you also play a dangerous game when you refuse to give the schoolyard bully your lunch money and dickishly tell him that he should pay for his own meal. That is not, however, a point which should be used to scorn those who get beaten up by those bullies for not paying up.

It's a point that should be used as a way to point out that there are bullies terrorizing and robbing other students and something needs to be done about those bullies.

This guy's being a dick to the cops did not interfere in the cops' ability to do their job, which was to identify whether or not he was the person they were looking for. Forcing him to obey irrelevant instructions such as "Do not make any phone calls" did not help them in doing their job.

 

[Nexus]

Disobeying reasonable and lawful order is not a minor thing.

Telling someone not to use a phone is not a reasonable order. It's also not lawful in places that people have a right to record police.

 

[TSwizzle]

I agree, their use of force was very, very excessive and I hope the cops are punished. But as I say, you play a dangerous game when acting like a dick in these situations.

This guy's being a dick to the cops did not interfere in the cops' ability to do their job, which was to identify whether or not he was the person they were looking for. Forcing him to obey irrelevant instructions such as "Do not make any phone calls" did not help them in doing their job.

I don't know if that is true or not. It certainly didn't tun out well for anybody involved.

 

[abaddon]

... If someone's being a dick to a barista at a coffee shop, that barista has an obligation to continue smiling and wish the customer a nice day....

Now there’s a person who needs a good beating… any manager or boss that requires an employee to stand by and take abuses with no right to speak against it. Customers have no authority over anybody at all; their "job" is to politely ask if they may have what's for sale. I say that both as a human interested in everyone’s rights and freedom, and as a business owner. If I owned a coffee shop and any customer ever verbally abused an employee, he’d be asked to apologize or else he must leave or I’m phoning the police.

The police have no burden to stand there and smile if you mouth off at them. Not because they have a little authority and that should be respected, but because they’re human and that should be respected.

The problem here is the police have much too little respect for their fellow humans. They have a “brotherhood” among themselves and so have mistaken their loyalty. They figure it’s honorable to defend themselves, their buddies and the law first before defending the humanity of everyone. And they’re wrong.

I agree with the general point of your post, just not the "stand there and take abuse and smile" bit of it.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Disobeying reasonable and lawful order is not a minor thing.

Telling someone not to use a phone is not a reasonable order. It's also not lawful in places that people have a right to record police.

This is unclear to me and my google-fu has failed me in trying to find an answer.

If you are recording the police and they tell you to put down your phone and stop recording, that is an illegal order and you are under no obligation to obey. At least this is the case if you are recording someone else's arrest. When you're the one being questioned and you want to record the interaction yourself, I'm not sure. All my searches for information about making phone calls just came up with stuff about the right to make calls after your arrest, etc, and not about this situation.

Does anyone know the actual answer?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

... If someone's being a dick to a barista at a coffee shop, that barista has an obligation to continue smiling and wish the customer a nice day. If he gets into a shouting match and starts throwing insults or punches at the customer, he needs to be fired because he has failed in one of the key requirements of his job.

Now there’s a person who needs a good beating… any manager or boss that requires an employee to stand by and take abuses with no right to speak against it. Customers have no authority over anybody at all; their "job" is to politely ask if they may have what's for sale. I say that both as a human interested in everyone’s rights and freedom, and as a business owner. If I owned a coffee shop and any customer ever verbally abused an employee, he’d be asked to apologize or else he must leave or I’m phoning the police.

That's a nice aside which is unrelated to the thread. How would you react if your employee started yelling back and throwing punches?

The police have no burden to stand there and smile if you mouth off at them. Not because they have a little authority and that should be respected, but because they’re human and that should be respected.

The problem here is the police have much too little respect for their fellow humans. They have a “brotherhood” among themselves and so have mistaken their loyalty. The figure it’s honorable to defend themselves, their buddies and the law first before defending the humanity of everyone. And they’re wrong.

The police have an obligation to conduct themselves professionally. There's nobody else involved in the situation who have a similar obligation.

 

[Ford]

The police have an obligation to conduct themselves professionally. There's nobody else involved in the situation who have a similar obligation.

Actually as long as you don't physically assault the officer, I'm pretty certain you have every right to be a dick to them.

My uncle was a traffic cop. He was driving around town one day in his car when some punk kid rolled down the window and flipped him off. Legally there was nothing he could do about the gesture. It was the kid's 1st Amendment right to express himself in that fashion.

So instead of pulling him out of the car and beating him senseless, my uncle just followed the kid at a safe distance until a couple blocks later when the punk made a minor traffic violation...failure to stop if I remember correctly.

And that's when my uncle pulled the punk out of the car and slammed his face into the pavement wrote him a ticket for the violation and said "you have a nice day now."

 

[Tom Sawyer]

The police have an obligation to conduct themselves professionally. There's nobody else involved in the situation who have a similar obligation.

Actually as long as you don't physically assault the officer, I'm pretty certain you have every right to be a dick to them.

My uncle was a traffic cop. He was driving around town one day in his car when some punk kid rolled down the window and flipped him off. Legally there was nothing he could do about the gesture. It was the kid's 1st Amendment right to express himself in that fashion.

So instead of pulling him out of the car and beating him senseless, my uncle just followed the kid at a safe distance until a couple blocks later when the punk made a minor traffic violation...failure to stop if I remember correctly.

And that's when my uncle pulled the punk out of the car and slammed his face into the pavement wrote him a ticket for the violation and said "you have a nice day now."

Ah, fascism.

Whether it's by having their police abuse their authority by beating the shit out of people who disrespect them or it's be having their police abuse their authority by going out of their way to target individuals whom they just don't like, America contines to show why it's the stinky armpit of the Western world.

I know I'm talking about your uncle and all, but that was actually really horrible of him to decide that because he doesn't like somebody, he's going to go after them until he can manage to find a minor violation he's able to fine them for and make them pay for disrespecting him. I see your story as one of somebody who's abusing his authority and he is one of the root causes of why some people feel the need to give cops the finger.

 

[TSwizzle]

Ah, fascism.

Whether it's by having their police abuse their authority by beating the shit out of people who disrespect them or it's be having their police abuse their authority by going out of their way to target individuals whom they just don't like, America contines to show why it's the stinky armpit of the Western world.

I know I'm talking about your uncle and all, but that was actually really horrible of him to decide that because he doesn't like somebody, he's going to go after them until he can manage to find a minor violation he's able to fine them for and make them pay for disrespecting him. I see your story as one of somebody who's abusing his authority and he is one of the root causes of why some people feel the need to give cops the finger.

It's all very juvenile. Punk flips off cop, cop hunts down punk and writes a bs ticket. But I don't understand this need for people to bait cops. It makes no sense, no good ever comes of it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The police have an obligation to conduct themselves professionally. There's nobody else involved in the situation who have a similar obligation.

Actually as long as you don't physically assault the officer, I'm pretty certain you have every right to be a dick to them.

My uncle was a traffic cop. He was driving around town one day in his car when some punk kid rolled down the window and flipped him off. Legally there was nothing he could do about the gesture. It was the kid's 1st Amendment right to express himself in that fashion.

So instead of pulling him out of the car and beating him senseless, my uncle just followed the kid at a safe distance until a couple blocks later when the punk made a minor traffic violation...failure to stop if I remember correctly.

And that's when my uncle pulled the punk out of the car and slammed his face into the pavement wrote him a ticket for the violation and said "you have a nice day now."

Why wait? Bust him for improper use of a turn signal--he signaled a right turn then didn't turn.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Why wait? Bust him for improper use of a turn signal--he signaled a right turn then didn't turn.

OK, that was fucking hilarious. Good job.

 

[Rhea]

Actually as long as you don't physically assault the officer, I'm pretty certain you have every right to be a dick to them.

My uncle was a traffic cop. He was driving around town one day in his car when some punk kid rolled down the window and flipped him off. Legally there was nothing he could do about the gesture. It was the kid's 1st Amendment right to express himself in that fashion.

So instead of pulling him out of the car and beating him senseless, my uncle just followed the kid at a safe distance until a couple blocks later when the punk made a minor traffic violation...failure to stop if I remember correctly.

And that's when my uncle pulled the punk out of the car and slammed his face into the pavement wrote him a ticket for the violation and said "you have a nice day now."

Ah, fascism.

Whether it's by having their police abuse their authority by beating the shit out of people who disrespect them or it's be having their police abuse their authority by going out of their way to target individuals whom they just don't like, America contines to show why it's the stinky armpit of the Western world.

I know I'm talking about your uncle and all, but that was actually really horrible of him to decide that because he doesn't like somebody, he's going to go after them until he can manage to find a minor violation he's able to fine them for and make them pay for disrespecting him. I see your story as one of somebody who's abusing his authority and he is one of the root causes of why some people feel the need to give cops the finger.

This is true. He could have just rolled his eyes and said to himself, "kids. So unsure of themselves, always trying to prove something. Well, I've nothing to prove, and I'm sure it'll help him grow to watch me prove that I have nothing to prove. By just driving on and grinning at him."

Kinda like when my teen says, "You're Horrible!" And I reply, "I love you, too."

 

[abaddon]

That's a nice aside which is unrelated to the thread. How would you react if your employee started yelling back and throwing punches?

Fire them.

It was no more an aside than your analogy to employee/consumer relations was. In your analogy you turned things into a matter of “duty” and that some people (police) are obliged by duty to stand by and smile — to be overly servile. My input on the topic is it’s a matter of humans having enough mutual respect for everybody that we all keep our disagreements verbal, and just verbal. Anyone that can’t keep it verbal, regardless of what special deference they think is owed to them, is a problem that must be addressed.

No one should have to take shit without being able to speak back, neither the civilians nor the police either. Of course it shouldn’t get violent, the initiator of the violence is always wrong regardless if he has a little authority.

 

[Nexus]

Ah, fascism.

Whether it's by having their police abuse their authority by beating the shit out of people who disrespect them or it's be having their police abuse their authority by going out of their way to target individuals whom they just don't like, America contines to show why it's the stinky armpit of the Western world.

I wouldn't have a problem with cops ticketing people for rude gestures while driving. Allowing that encourages road rage incidents. And while we have a first amendment right to be rude, I think while operating a vehicle the driver's priority should be on its safe and lawful operation.

 

[abaddon]

I wouldn't have a problem with cops ticketing people for rude gestures while driving. Allowing that encourages road rage incidents. And while we have a first amendment right to be rude, I think while operating a vehicle the driver's priority should be on its safe and lawful operation.

Those would be some extremely arbitrary tickets. How would that not be escalating things to the absurd? More and more confrontations, more and more assertions of excess authority and power, more and more retaliation against it.

I’ve thought a lot about “flipping the bird” over the years because the belligerence of especially males is very interesting to me. There’s nothing inherently rude in a raised middle finger. Where things go wrong is in the head, in how the person chooses to respond. He can be ludicrous and childish by taking offense. Or be adult and strong by ignoring it, blowing a kiss or otherwise mocking it, or vocalizing whatever his upset is.

Sometimes people use “that’s rude!” prudishness as a mindfuck manipulation of other people; you want to step it up from just mental manipulation to something more. But maybe a better approach to such an allegedly "unruly" society just might really be LESS RULES, less control, less oppression, less trying to force people into line.

------------

ETA: Road ragers are just yet another example of jerks (almost entirely males) who can’t stand that their sense of Rightness and Power isn’t respected enough. Ultimately these police shootings incidents are about male apes playing topdog-underdog games.

 

[bilby]

I wouldn't have a problem with cops ticketing people for rude gestures while driving. Allowing that encourages road rage incidents. And while we have a first amendment right to be rude, I think while operating a vehicle the driver's priority should be on its safe and lawful operation.

Those would be some extremely arbitrary tickets. How would that not be escalating things to the absurd? More and more confrontations, more and more assertions of excess authority and power, more and more retaliation against it.

I’ve thought a lot about “flipping the bird” over the years, because the belligerence of especially males is very interesting to me. There’s nothing inherently rude in a raised middle finger, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with it. Where things go wrong is in the head; it’s how the person interprets it: the ludicrous and childish way (taking offense) or a rational way (ignoring it, waving or blowing a kiss or otherwise mocking it, or vocalizing whatever your upset is).

There’s nothing wrong with anger, it’s just how you express it that matters — namely, don’t express it with your fists or a gun or any other display of authority.

People use “that’s rude!” prudishness as a mindfuck manipulation of other people. The answer to such an allegedly "unruly" society just might really be LESS RULES, less control, less oppression, less trying to force people into line.

FEWER!!!

 

[Ford]

I know I'm talking about your uncle and all, but that was actually really horrible of him to decide that because he doesn't like somebody, he's going to go after them until he can manage to find a minor violation he's able to fine them for and make them pay for disrespecting him. I see your story as one of somebody who's abusing his authority and he is one of the root causes of why some people feel the need to give cops the finger.

Horrible! Fascism!

Hyperbole!

I posted the story as a counter example to the OP situation...one which some posters have defended as perfectly acceptable police work. There's a pretty big difference between a moving violation and an violent take down. A big difference between "put it down or I'll knock it out of your freaking hand" and "here's your ticket, have a nice day."

Suggesting the two situations are equally indicative of fascism is a bit much.

 

[abaddon]

Those would be some extremely arbitrary tickets. How would that not be escalating things to the absurd? More and more confrontations, more and more assertions of excess authority and power, more and more retaliation against it.

I’ve thought a lot about “flipping the bird” over the years, because the belligerence of especially males is very interesting to me. There’s nothing inherently rude in a raised middle finger, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with it. Where things go wrong is in the head; it’s how the person interprets it: the ludicrous and childish way (taking offense) or a rational way (ignoring it, waving or blowing a kiss or otherwise mocking it, or vocalizing whatever your upset is).

There’s nothing wrong with anger, it’s just how you express it that matters — namely, don’t express it with your fists or a gun or any other display of authority.

People use “that’s rude!” prudishness as a mindfuck manipulation of other people. The answer to such an allegedly "unruly" society just might really be LESS RULES, less control, less oppression, less trying to force people into line.

FEWER!!!

Damn you, I’m gonna kick your ass and then shoot you or vice versa!

 

[TSwizzle]

Horrible! Fascism!

Hyperbole!

I posted the story as a counter example to the OP situation...one which some posters have defended as perfectly acceptable police work. There's a pretty big difference between a moving violation and an violent take down. A big difference between "put it down or I'll knock it out of your freaking hand" and "here's your ticket, have a nice day."

Suggesting the two situations are equally indicative of fascism is a bit much.

It's still a bullshit, unnecessary traffic stop that has the potential to escalate further.