Haiti

[lostone]

Doesn't the mere existence of the collapsed state of Haiti refute libertarianism, just in itself? Here we have a living example of what can happen to an area when all government fails.

 

[Bronzeage]

I'm sure how Haiti relates to libertarianism. Haiti is more of a failed experiment in anarchy. Libertarianism shares one aspect with communism in that it looks good on paper, but no one has ever managed to make it work. Libertarianism depends upon the majority of people having property and a common stake in the stability of the society.

Ever since its earliest days a French colony and later as a dictatorship, power and wealth in Haiti has always been concentrated in very few hands. Today, Haiti has degenerated into a couple dozen little Haitis, with warlords and gang leaders controlling whatever wealth and property they can defend against others.

 

[lostone]

That's my point. Without a central government in power, warlords and gangs, or wealthy oligarchs, will take control. Communism and Libertarianism both assert, as you say, that only good comes from anarchy or a weak or non-existent stable government.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

That's my point. Without a central government in power, warlords and gangs, or wealthy oligarchs, will take control. Communism and Libertarianism both assert, as you say, that only good comes from anarchy or a weak or non-existent stable government.

No. Libertarians recognize the government as a legitimate mediator of disputes. It's anarchy that doesn't get it about the need for the rule of law.

 

[lostone]

That's my point. Without a central government in power, warlords and gangs, or wealthy oligarchs, will take control. Communism and Libertarianism both assert, as you say, that only good comes from anarchy or a weak or non-existent stable government.

No. Libertarians recognize the government as a legitimate mediator of disputes. It's anarchy that doesn't get it about the need for the rule of law.

Some who call themselves libertarians do, but others don't. Next up: defining who is or is not a 'true' libertarian?

 

[Bomb#20]

Libertarianism shares one aspect with communism in that it looks good on paper, but no one has ever managed to make it work. Libertarianism depends upon the majority of people having property and a common stake in the stability of the society.

It seems to me a reasonable approximation of libertarianism has been tried and made to work, once, starting in 1882 when the prohibitions against women owning property in Britain were abolished and ending in 1916 when conscription was imposed. After the war ended the UK didn't go back to libertarianism because most people didn't like it.

 

[Elixir]

Libertarianism would require that more than “most of the people” having property and a stake in the stability of the society. With a small fraction of violators, the whole thing crashes.
IOW it would require a change in basic human nature. A corrupt sociopath just got almost half the vote, QED

 

[Bronzeage]

Libertarianism would require that more than “most of the people” having property and a stake in the stability of the society. With a small fraction of violators, the whole thing crashes.
IOW it would require a change in basic human nature. A corrupt sociopath just got almost half the vote, QED

Every system requires more than one thing. The problem with the modern version of libertarianism is it attracts people who have a basically selfish nature. Any system requires some degree of compromise and cooperation(why should I pay for schools when I don't have children?), something to which libertarians are generally adverse.

 

[Bomb#20]

*"Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communistic revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to seize and donate to huddled masses in third-world countries who are poorer than they are." - Karl Marx

 

[Politesse]

Doesn't the mere existence of the collapsed state of Haiti refute libertarianism, just in itself? Here we have a living example of what can happen to an area when all government fails.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "libertarian", here. What is it, and more importantly, why do you think it applies to Haiti? I doubt that most Haitians feel like their personal rights are being maximized by the system under which they currently live. Some of the lakous are effectively under control of vicious warlords who place extreme restrictions on work and movement. Other districts and the rural highlands are a bit less firmly controlled, but I've not heard of any regions practicing what I would recognize as a libertarian style of government. Have you?

 

[lostone]

Is there a common definition of libertarianism? Or is it only loosely defined?

Honduras is often cited as an example of a libertarian state.

Many self-proclaimed libertarians, fans of Ayn Rand, claim to reject all forms of government, which is what has happened in Haiti, and when all government fails, warlords take over.