Half of English No Longer Christian

[Keith&Co.]

That's right. He was quite adamant that #1 There is no God. And #2 If there is, then I hate him.

That's really odd, then.

I mean, if a Christain drowns her children because she wants to save them from Satan, we're not supposed to judge all Christains because of her.

If a man uses a legally owned gun to shoot up a bar, we're not supposed to judge all responsible gun owners because of him.

If a white supremacist says he supports The Donald, Trump doesn't want us to judge his campaign just because of who his followers are.


Howsoever, if one Atheist shares his impression of a character described in a popular book, that becomes a tenet of atheism. Because he speaks for us all, and your interpretation of what he is actually saying about what all atheists believe is superior to ours. I guess atheists are in a class with muslims?

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Why is it irrational to think that? I don't think it irrational to suspect that there are Higher life forms in the universe/multiverse/megaverse.
In fact I would argue that it's irrational to think humans (human conscious existence) represents the upper limit of reality.
It's rather arrogant if you ask me.

Higher life forms wouldn't have the ability to magically create anything they want to, just because they want to. It's like you're saying there are genies in bottles that can grant our wishes. Obviously, you don't believe in genies. Why don't you? Why is it irrational to believe in genies?

 

[Keith&Co.]

That's right. He was quite adamant that #1 There is no God. And #2 If there is, then I hate him.

Um, just one nitpick.
There's an if/then statement in your interpretation of his statement, right?
As atheists, we're at condition #1.
We don't 'hate' gods until we get to somewhere in the middle of condition #2.

So it's still not correct to say Condition 1 atheists hate god.
We don't worship ANY gods, and if ANY of them turn out to be real, we probably still won't worship them.
And if they turn out to be evil rat bastards, we may hate them THEN. AFTER, you know, we accept that they're real.

 

[Lion IRC]

The if/then condition doesn't change anything.
An atheist who hates the idea of God existing has a motivation to be biased in their disbelief.

You can't have it both ways.

You can't accuse the theist of wishful thinking but excuse the atheist who hates the idea of God.

Same goes for the cannard about theists making God in their own likeness.

Doesn't the atheist equally imagine God the way they wish Him to be - impotent, invisible, laughable...

 

[none]

Good thing I'm ignostic

 

[Keith&Co.]

The if/then condition doesn't change anything.

It changes everything. Did Hitchens say 'if god IS real' or did he say 'if god WERE real'....?
Did he say 'I hate him' or did he say 'I WOULD hate him?'

Did he say 'hate,' really?

An atheist who hates the idea of God existing has a motivation to be biased in their disbelief.

Not at all. It just means we've examined the various god stories that have been offered to us and we are not attached to seeing their behavior as a good thing.
We're not forced to interpret 'infinite Hell for finite sin' as an act of love, for example. We're allowed to say 'i think that sucks.'
And it doesn't change the fact that we don't hate GOD, we hate the way many of the gods are described.

You can't have it both ways.

And you don't even seem to understand the way we do have it.
You don't want to, i would guess. Because you're far too comfortable with your view of atheists as it is.

You can't accuse the theist of wishful thinking but excuse the atheist who hates the idea of God.

They're not two connected ideas.
We accuse the theist of wishful thinking because he doesn't have objective evidence he can offer.
But the 'idea' of god is the one they keep telling us about. Time after time after time.

Someone shoots a gay club, there are people telling us that their god is pleased.
SOmeone dies in a hurricane, someone will tell us that the storm was sent by their god because (reason).

These are discrete things that happen. Not our subjective interpretation of someone else's testimony of something he saw but cannot repeat.

You can't compare the two and hold them as equal things.

Same goes for the cannard about theists making God in their own likeness.

Doesn't the atheist equally imagine God the way they wish Him to be - impotent, invisible, laughable...

Nope, you got that wrong, too.
I imagine that the god you imagine doesn't exist. That makes believers and their efforts to convince me to believe in him impotent and laughable...

 

[beero1000]

 

[Lion IRC]

Why is it irrational to think that? I don't think it irrational to suspect that there are Higher life forms in the universe/multiverse/megaverse.
In fact I would argue that it's irrational to think humans (human conscious existence) represents the upper limit of reality.
It's rather arrogant if you ask me.

Higher life forms wouldn't have the ability to magically create anything they want to, just because they want to.

Why not? Because they aren't sufficiently advanced to master the alchemy we call quantum physics?
Wasn't it Lawrence Krauss who claimed matter can be created from non-matter. Or maybe it was Victor Stenger.

What you call magic might be a learned skill or an evolved ability in their realm. (Yes, 'realm' because they might inhabit a space/time dimension which can only be reached by going through a 'wormhole' called death.)

...It's like you're saying there are genies in bottles that can grant our wishes. Obviously, you don't believe in genies. Why don't you? Why is it irrational to believe in genies?

If I was saying "there are genies in bottles", why would you then think that I dont believe what I'm saying?

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Why not? Because they aren't sufficiently advanced to master the alchemy we call quantum physics?
Wasn't it Lawrence Krauss who claimed matter can be created from non-matter. Or maybe it was Victor Stenger.

What you call magic might be a learned skill or an evolved ability in their realm. (Yes, 'realm' because they might inhabit a space/time dimension which can only be reached by going through a 'wormhole' called death.)

No, because anything they do would require technology and resources, which supposedly god doesn't require, because supposedly he can will anything whatsoever into existence.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

The if/then condition doesn't change anything.
An atheist who hates the idea of God existing has a motivation to be biased in their disbelief.

You can't have it both ways.

You can't accuse the theist of wishful thinking but excuse the atheist who hates the idea of God.

Same goes for the cannard about theists making God in their own likeness.

Doesn't the atheist equally imagine God the way they wish Him to be - impotent, invisible, laughable...

Hating the idea of god? That's some weird doublespeak. I suppose it means that Christians hate the idea of gods.

So I have to ask why Christians are so hateful when it comes to the idea of those other gods and their religions?

And while we're at it, why do kids learn to hate the idea of Santa, which eventually causes them to disbelieve that a man dressed in red, white and black flies around the world with a levitating sleigh and reindeer to bring them toys?

I think there's a good discussion in there for how the development of intellect can naturally conflict with certain teachings and claims. For me the loss of god belief was identical to the loss of Santa belief, and tooth fairies and easter bunnies. I just couldn't see how a wise and powerful entity could be so overly interested in our sex organs and would want us to worship it. Just seemed goofy, intellectually speaking.

Does that mean I hate the idea? Hardly.

Or maybe it means that Christians and religionists hate the idea of intellect. Like I said, there's a good discussion in there.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Does that mean I hate the idea? Hardly.

Can't say 'hardly.' Lion reports that at least one atheist has said that they hate the idea of God. Therefore, all atheists hate the idea of God.

The stance appears to creep from an unattributed 'atheist' to applying to Hitchens to applying to all of us.

 

[Atheos]

I agree with the general tenet of the responses to this challenge of atheists "hating" god. To a devout theist it is indeed difficult to picture someone not having both having a picture in their head of who their god is as well as some relationship with said god even if it is a relationship of estrangement and hatred. But as others have mentioned it is equally likely that each individual has a picture in their head of who Santa is. I have a picture of who Superman is in my head. I have a picture of who emperor Palpantine is as well. But I have no relationship with any of these fictional characters whatsoever. Imaginary friends are the stuff of children and some never grow out of it, but they're still fictional.

Whatever god you believe in, that's fiction. It's an imaginary friend. If it gives you comfort I'm cool with that, but I'm not going to lie to you and pretend like your imaginary friend is real.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Nah, I'm pretty sure there's heaps of atheists who say they wouldn't want to go to heaven.

Hitchens used to rant against God (the celestial dictator) and claim he wouldn't worship God under any circumstances - whether atheism was true or false.

Sure. Count me among them. I wouldn't want to live under Darth Vader or Voldemort's rule either. Would you? Whether these stories are reality or false?

As for if it were real, then how about being a Nazi soldier? Would you have "just obeyed orders" and applauded the leader?

For the same reason, I would indeed hate God were he to exist as depicted in the Abrahamic holy texts.

Now, that doesn't mean I would hate a more benevolent God were one to exist.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

If I was saying "there are genies in bottles", why would you then think that I dont believe what I'm saying?

You appear to be willingly misunderstanding what I'm saying.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

The if/then condition doesn't change anything.
An atheist who hates the idea of God existing has a motivation to be biased in their disbelief.

You can't have it both ways.

You can't accuse the theist of wishful thinking but excuse the atheist who hates the idea of God.

Same goes for the cannard about theists making God in their own likeness.

Doesn't the atheist equally imagine God the way they wish Him to be - impotent, invisible, laughable...

Everyone has preexisting motivations which bias their beliefs. That's why methods to objectively analyze the evidence are important because none of us look at it from a blank slate.

 

[Lion IRC]

My point is that if you, as a self-professed atheist, hate the idea of God existing, you lay yourself open to the same accusation made against the theist. Namely, that your belief with respect to the non-existence of God contains an element of wishful thinking.

Now, if you want to say that your position is purely rational and you consider the evidence impartially, completely unaffected by wishful thinking, then you ought to concede that the theist is capable of doing the same.

 

[Lion IRC]

If I was saying "there are genies in bottles", why would you then think that I dont believe what I'm saying?

You appear to be willingly misunderstanding what I'm saying.

Go back and read your post again.
You hypothecated that I might claim there were genies in the bottle then immediately deny belief in same.
Of course I misunderstand you!!

 

[Keith&Co.]

My point is that if you. as a self-professed atheist, hate the idea of God existing, you lay yourself open to the same accusation made against the theist. Namely, that your belief with respect to the non-existence of God contains an element of wishful thinking.

Yes, and that's a really poor point, as you keep projecting your bias onto other people's beliefs or lack thereof.
I don't have a belief that God is nonexistent.
I lack any belief that any of the gods of man exist.

Now, if you want to say that your position is purely rational and you consider the evidence impartially, completely unaffected by wishful thinking, then you ought to concede that the theist is capable of doing the same.

Capable? Sure.
But that doesn't look at all like what they actually are doing.

- - - Updated - - -

You appear to be willingly misunderstanding what I'm saying.

Go back and read your post again.
You hypothecated that I might claim there were genies in the bottle then immediately deny belief in same.

No, he did not.
He did not offer any such hypothetical.
He compared your stance to making such a claim, rather than accuse you of making such a claim.
The way you talk is LIKE stating...

Go back and read it yourself.

 

[Lion IRC]

Does that mean I hate the idea? Hardly.

Can't say 'hardly.' Lion reports that at least one atheist has said that they hate the idea of God. Therefore, all atheists hate the idea of God.

I haven't stated that all atheists hate the idea.
Please use the quote function and don't verbal me.

...The stance appears to creep from an unattributed 'atheist' to applying to Hitchens to applying to all of us.

Where did I say all atheists?
Hitchens (before his terminal illness) reviled the idea of Gods existence - even when predicated on a thought experiment.
Listen here;

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fG2ffBV4VbE

 

[Lion IRC]

...It's like you're saying there are genies in bottles that can grant our wishes. Obviously, you don't believe in genies.

Why would I say there are genies in a bottle if I didn't believe that?