• Welcome to the Internet Infidels Discussion Board.

Harvard Hit With Racial Bias Complaint

With respect to discrimination of asians I have this cultural stereotype of parents pushing them too much. It's no secret that students who study a lot have better scores but it does not mean that they have better intrinsic potential. In other words their SAT scores are somewhat inflated. And blacks are opposite of that.
And when you discriminate against asians it forces asian parents to push even more.
 
Huh?



I don't understand anything you're saying. What do you mean by White students being admitted 2:1? What are the groups in your ratio?

The question is about as basic as it gets. Do either group get preferential treatment under AA? If not then how is AA a factor?

Neither Asians nor Whites get preferential treatment under AA.

AA is a factor because entry into University is a competitive process. There are not an infinite number of positions. That means that there are Whites and Asians who would have been offered a place that were not, because of AA.

Your posts show you're very confused about how AA works.
 
With respect to discrimination of asians I have this cultural stereotype of parents pushing them too much. It's no secret that students who study a lot have better scores but it does not mean that they have better intrinsic potential. In other words their SAT scores are somewhat inflated. And blacks are opposite of that.

There's so much wrong here I don't know where to begin.

There is no evidence whatsoever that SAT scores have differential predictive validities based on race. If there is such evidence, I would like to see it.

Also, in my day, studying hard was not seen as a negative mark against a student. Things sure have changed.

And when you discriminate against asians it forces asian parents to push even more.

And with AA still in place, it's an arms race that will get them nowhere, since they're really competing against themselves and they simply push their group average higher. Since there is an unofficial cap on the number of Asians admitted, it won't help.
 
With respect to discrimination of asians I have this cultural stereotype of parents pushing them too much. It's no secret that students who study a lot have better scores but it does not mean that they have better intrinsic potential. In other words their SAT scores are somewhat inflated. And blacks are opposite of that.
And when you discriminate against asians it forces asian parents to push even more.

Are you telling us that you see asians as harder working and more dedicated than blacks? Wouldnt that be another good reason to prefer them rather than discriminate against them?
 
With respect to discrimination of asians I have this cultural stereotype of parents pushing them too much. It's no secret that students who study a lot have better scores but it does not mean that they have better intrinsic potential. In other words their SAT scores are somewhat inflated. And blacks are opposite of that.
And when you discriminate against asians it forces asian parents to push even more.

Are you telling us that you see asians as harder working and more dedicated than blacks? Wouldnt that be another good reason to prefer them rather than discriminate against them?
It depends. "Hard working" and SAT scores are not everything. For example your muscle fiber type distribution is genetically determined and no amount of "hard working" can change that. They can make a test and tell you that you will never be a sprinter or long distance runner champion no matter how hard you try. Same with brain, you can study hard all you want and it will help you a lot but only to a certain point.
High SAT score asian applicants with their "hard work" could be at their ceiling, and you can't physically make them work harder.
 
Last edited:
There's so much wrong here I don't know where to begin.

There is no evidence whatsoever that SAT scores have differential predictive validities based on race. If there is such evidence, I would like to see it.
No, I am not wrong.
Also, in my day, studying hard was not seen as a negative mark against a student. Things sure have changed.

And when you discriminate against asians it forces asian parents to push even more.

And with AA still in place, it's an arms race that will get them nowhere, since they're really competing against themselves and they simply push their group average higher. Since there is an unofficial cap on the number of Asians admitted, it won't help.
Yes.
I am not advocating any policy, just explaining things.
 
No, I am not wrong.

You made a claim that SAT scores from Asian candidates were 'over inflated'. What you mean by this I'm not entirely sure, but statistically speaking it seems you are making the claim that the scores from SATs from Asians over-predict academic performance in University, and under-predict academic performance of Blacks. That's a claim that should be made with evidence. Do you have the evidence?

Is the regression slope of University performance on SAT different for Asian and Black students?
 
No, I am not wrong.

You made a claim that SAT scores from Asian candidates were 'over inflated'. What you mean by this I'm not entirely sure, but statistically speaking it seems you are making the claim that the scores from SATs from Asians over-predict academic performance in University, and under-predict academic performance of Blacks. That's a claim that should be made with evidence. Do you have the evidence?
I am not writing dissertation here, so it was not a claim, it was merely extremely reasonable and obvious hypothesis, no proof was promised.
Fact is, SAT scores are not perfect predictor of academic potential. And Asians with their culture of pushing their kids to the limit is an illustration of that.
 
Would be interesting to see what the courts have to say about this, or even to see what aa advocates have to say when finally forced to address asians on this.

It is one thing to wax on about past oppression and trry to use it to excuse current discrimination, but quite another when you discriminate against a group who had nothing to do with what you are waxing about.
 
The question is about as basic as it gets. Do either group get preferential treatment under AA? If not then how is AA a factor?

Neither Asians nor Whites get preferential treatment under AA.

AA is a factor because entry into University is a competitive process. There are not an infinite number of positions. That means that there are Whites and Asians who would have been offered a place that were not, because of AA.

Your posts show you're very confused about how AA works.

Ok, since we're agreed on basic premises - let's make the process a bit more competitive.

Let's say that the ~553 seats that collectively went to Blacks, Pacific Islanders, and Latinos are no longer available, and as well none of these individuals are admitted at all.

If Asians have to have higher scores to get in and, as I linked above, of the 1495 admissions spots how do Asians only make up about 410 admittees? What factors could be at play here causing Asians to require higher scores for the seats they get when overall they get so few seats comparitively?
 
Deepak said:
If Asians have to have higher scores to get in and, as I linked above, of the 1495 admissions spots how do Asians only make up about 410 admittees? What factors could be at play here causing Asians to require higher scores for the seats they get when overall they get so few seats comparitively?

Seems pretty simple. AA runs on a quota philosophy. It isnt as straight forward as simple quotas, but at the heart of it that is what it is. When you have a group that is "over represented" and exceeding their quota, they get discriminated against. So yes, ironically whites benefit from aa as compared with asians.

AA advocates like to pretend it is about helping those in harship or biased tests leading to unfair scores, but they discriminate for race as a bad proxy. It isnt hard to see through that given a moment's thought.
 
Discrimination against Asians is inherently required by most University AA policies. The policies call for special considerations (e.g., lower standards) only for "under-represented" minorities. Asians are generally over-represented in Universities relative to their proportion of the US population. Also, the groupings, are not by ethnicity or culture but rather by the racial groups that supposedly don't exist. What your actual ethnic and cultural background is does not matter, if you are "Asian", then there are already too many of your kind, so you are SOL. Same goes for "white non-Hispanic" even if you are a recent immigrant from the impoverished former Chech Republic whose family narrowly escaped genocide, you are still a full beneficiary of "white privileged" and thus less worthy of an education than a black student who grew up with far more advantages than you. All that matters is the relative number of students already in University that happen to share your superficial physical features used to create racial categories. AA policies use these to determine how many of "your kind" will get in and thus what level of qualifications you will need.

The same holds for faculty hiring. My last university had a 2 for 1 policy where if your department hired an under-represented minority, the Provost would kick in money to allow you to hire a second one, but they also had to be a minority or no deal. We were explicitly told that Asians do not count.



If Asians have to have higher scores to get in and, as I linked above, of the 1495 admissions spots how do Asians only make up about 410 admittees? What factors could be at play here causing Asians to require higher scores for the seats they get when overall they get so few seats comparitively?


It is simple. AA policies determine the number of people from each racial group that get in, while deliberately ignoring the differences in the number of each group that apply. Thus, AA policies mean that whites and Asians (because they are already over-represented in Universities) will have a smaller % of applicants that are admitted. Since those admitted are not random but selected from the top part of the distribution of qualifications, a smaller % inherently means that they have to have higher qualifications to make it into that smaller and more select portion of their racial group.
Also, on objective measures (whether tests, GPA, or other valid indicators of academic qualifications) Asians score highest, Whites second, Hispanics third, and African-Americans forth (among those 4 groups). So, imagine that only the top 5% of Asians and top 5% of Whites get in, while the top 25% of African Americans get in (which is similar to the pattern that AA policies lead to). That would mean that Asians and Whites would both have to score much higher than African Americans do to get in (as the report shows, 450 and 310 points higher respectively). But even though a similar % of Asian and Whites get in, because Asians score higher than whites overall, that means that their scores will be somewhat higher than whites (140 points).

It is likely that blacks are at most 1-3% of the students who would qualify for admission if race were ignored. Thus the extra 10% of the admitted slots is being taken mostly from Asian and to a lesser extent from whites.
 
Ok, since we're agreed on basic premises - let's make the process a bit more competitive.

I don't think we have agreed on the basic premises. Everything you've written makes me believe you don't understand AA at all.

Let's say that the ~553 seats that collectively went to Blacks, Pacific Islanders, and Latinos are no longer available, and as well none of these individuals are admitted at all.

Where did this number come from? Why would a 'seat' disappear? If one day, half the people who normally catch a train stay home, do you think their trains seats disappear?

If Asians have to have higher scores to get in and, as I linked above, of the 1495 admissions spots how do Asians only make up about 410 admittees? What factors could be at play here causing Asians to require higher scores for the seats they get when overall they get so few seats comparitively?

What percentage of the U.S. school-leaving population do you think is Asian? They're aren't as many Asians at University compared to White people, because Whites outnumber Asians 10 to 1 in the school-leaving population.

Nevertheless, Whites don't outnumber Asians at Universities 10 to 1. This is because, even despite rampant discrimination against Asian students in admissions policies, their aptitude and achievement is higher than other groups, and aptitude and achievement are important factors in admissions.
 
Would be interesting to see what the courts have to say about this, or even to see what aa advocates have to say when finally forced to address asians on this.

It is one thing to wax on about past oppression and trry to use it to excuse current discrimination, but quite another when you discriminate against a group who had nothing to do with what you are waxing about.

And courts are pretty good about kicking the deceptive arguments to the curb.

Look what happened when the creationists got forced into court: They couldn't mount a defense at all.

- - - Updated - - -

Deepak said:
If Asians have to have higher scores to get in and, as I linked above, of the 1495 admissions spots how do Asians only make up about 410 admittees? What factors could be at play here causing Asians to require higher scores for the seats they get when overall they get so few seats comparitively?

Seems pretty simple. AA runs on a quota philosophy. It isnt as straight forward as simple quotas, but at the heart of it that is what it is. When you have a group that is "over represented" and exceeding their quota, they get discriminated against. So yes, ironically whites benefit from aa as compared with asians.

AA advocates like to pretend it is about helping those in harship or biased tests leading to unfair scores, but they discriminate for race as a bad proxy. It isnt hard to see through that given a moment's thought.

When it comes to the top-tier schools whites end up with a basically neutral result: Most of the spots they lose to blacks and Hispanics they take from Asians.

- - - Updated - - -

The same holds for faculty hiring. My last university had a 2 for 1 policy where if your department hired an under-represented minority, the Provost would kick in money to allow you to hire a second one, but they also had to be a minority or no deal. We were explicitly told that Asians do not count.

That sounds like heaven for a lawyer. Was it sufficiently under the table not to be attacked?
 
That sounds like heaven for a lawyer. Was it sufficiently under the table not to be attacked?

Are there any prominent court decisions that addressed asians being discriminated against in favour of non-whites? It would be an interesting read to see if any arguments are still made in favour of it, once white people are out of the equation. Every argument I have ever seen in support of AA type policies have focussed on disadvantaged groups in reference to white people and history at the hands of white people, etc. Without white people as part of it... what do they have left to say?
 
When it comes to the top-tier schools whites end up with a basically neutral result: Most of the spots they lose to blacks and Hispanics they take from Asians.

No, it isn't neutral. More white people would get a slot if discrimination by race stopped.
 
Would be interesting to see what the courts have to say about this, or even to see what aa advocates have to say when finally forced to address asians on this.

It is one thing to wax on about past oppression and trry to use it to excuse current discrimination, but quite another when you discriminate against a group who had nothing to do with what you are waxing about.
:realitycheck:
When you wax on about past oppression and try to use it to excuse current discrimination, you're always discriminating against a group who had nothing to do with what you are waxing about. Sometimes it's a group that's the same color as the group you're waxing about, granted; but that hardly makes it the same group.
 
One thing to consider is that many Asian applicants to US Universities are not US citizens and are still in Asia when they apply.

China and South Korea alone account for 40% of international students (150,000 accepted each year). That is problematic, especially given the evidence of widespread organized exam cheating (and letter of recommendation falsification and personal statement ghost writing) going on in Asian countries.

Universities want those higher tuition $$ from foreign students. But combined with racist quotas (aka affirmative action), every foreign Asian student admitted means a rejection for an Asian-American citizen.

I don't think these foreign applicants are being counted in the numbers being used to show discrimination. So they don't undermine the point of the OP, rather they suggest that the problem is even bigger for Asian-Americans who are not only rejected in favor of lower scoring US students (mostly other minorities), but also for non citizen Asian applicants.
 
Back
Top Bottom