Harvard Hit With Racial Bias Complaint

[Jolly_Penguin]

Since the proponents of Affirmative Action are mysteriously silent in this thread, perhaps we can play a little devil's advocate here and explore what other arguments may be advanced for them in this context between asian and black Americans, with the former being discriminated against for the latter.

1. Social Perception / Role Models / etc

Whatever the causes, the racist stereotype of the black man is one of violence and laziness. The racist stereotype of the asian isn't so negative. Sometimes I see it argued that we need more black people in prominent high level respected positions because it gives a good role model to black youth, so that they can look to Obama for example, instead of a rapper or gangster. I have also seen it argued that racist prejudices are confirmed and encouraged when we see a lack of black people in these roles. Has Obama's presidency made a huge impact on this? Would AA help with this, or would the tokenism of it make it backfire in this regard?

2. Racial diversity as a virtue

I have also seen it argued that the student body being racially diverse is a virtue and something important to have. This seems to go along with the integration arguments (which I think have some merit) that we should be encouraged to live and work amongst people "different" from ourselves so not to form negative racist impressions. One reason anti-gay sentiment has fallen so quickly is because pretty much everybody has a friend or family member who is gay. If we all had loved ones who are black, maybe we wouldn't have so much racism against black people. If we all had workmates, studymates, etc, that may achieve a similar result? So they want to have a little of each "sort of minority", so they have enough asians and want more blacks.

That's the best I can come up with. I am not sure either of those points can undo the harm done by AA and its racial discrimination. I'm not sure you can fight fire with more fire so to speak. The solution to discrimination can't really be more discrimination, right?

 

[laughing dog]

Interestingly, according to the OP article, the complaint does not seem to mention affirmative action as a cause of the alleged disparity. Perhaps the article is flawed,, or my reading comprehension or perhaps some people are jumping the starting gun in their hobby horse race.

 

[Trausti]

Interestingly, according to the OP article, the complaint does not seem to mention affirmative action as a cause of the alleged disparity. Perhaps the article is flawed,, or my reading comprehension or perhaps some people are jumping the starting gun in their hobby horse race.

It's all over the complaint: http://studentsforfairadmissions.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/SFFA-v.-Harvard-Complaint.pdf

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Since the proponents of Affirmative Action are mysteriously silent in this thread, perhaps we can play a little devil's advocate here and explore what other arguments may be advanced for them in this context between asian and black Americans, with the former being discriminated against for the latter.

1. Social Perception / Role Models / etc

Whatever the causes, the racist stereotype of the black man is one of violence and laziness. The racist stereotype of the asian isn't so negative. Sometimes I see it argued that we need more black people in prominent high level respected positions because it gives a good role model to black youth, so that they can look to Obama for example, instead of a rapper or gangster. I have also seen it argued that racist prejudices are confirmed and encouraged when we see a lack of black people in these roles. Has Obama's presidency made a huge impact on this? Would AA help with this, or would the tokenism of it make it backfire in this regard?

2. Racial diversity as a virtue

I have also seen it argued that the student body being racially diverse is a virtue and something important to have. This seems to go along with the integration arguments (which I think have some merit) that we should be encouraged to live and work amongst people "different" from ourselves so not to form negative racist impressions. One reason anti-gay sentiment has fallen so quickly is because pretty much everybody has a friend or family member who is gay. If we all had loved ones who are black, maybe we wouldn't have so much racism against black people. If we all had workmates, studymates, etc, that may achieve a similar result? So they want to have a little of each "sort of minority", so they have enough asians and want more blacks.

That's the best I can come up with. I am not sure either of those points can undo the harm done by AA and its racial discrimination. I'm not sure you can fight fire with more fire so to speak. The solution to discrimination can't really be more discrimination, right?

I think it's more that the asians are unintentional collateral damage in the drive for equality that AA is trying to get at. They started with the notion that blacks were historically discriminated against by whites and deserved a leg up as a result of that and ended up grouping people by race and modifying admission standards accordingly. The whites were the baseline they wanted everyone to get to and when they found that some groups were actually doing better than whites without this modification, they didn't bother to change the model and just plugged the numbers in however they happened to land.

So it's not that they really wanted to discriminate against asians, it's just that they were proceeding off an assumption that they didn't exist because they didn't fall within the white/black paradigm that Americans tend to see race relations in, so they didn't really consider them in the first place.

 

[laughing dog]

Interestingly, according to the OP article, the complaint does not seem to mention affirmative action as a cause of the alleged disparity. Perhaps the article is flawed,, or my reading comprehension or perhaps some people are jumping the starting gun in their hobby horse race.

It's all over the complaint: http://studentsforfairadmissions.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/SFFA-v.-Harvard-Complaint.pdf

I looked at the 1st 10 pages or so of the 120 page complaint. No mention of AA at all. Do you have a particular section or page number to cite?

Please note, I am not making any judgment about the merits of a race discrimination claim. Such a claim does not require AA. And the history of Harvard certainly attests to the clear possibility of discrimination based on ethnic or religious backgrounds.

 

[Toni]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/17/opinion/sunday/the-case-for-black-doctors.html?_r=0

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I found this paragraph of the complaint especially poignant

8. Fourth, and last, Harvard is using race in admissions decisions when raceneutral
alternatives can achieve diversity. As other elite universities have shown,
increased utilization of non-race-based criteria, such as socioeconomic preferences, can
promote diversity about as well as racial preferences.

I have always wondered why these admissions people don't focus on socioeconomic status if that is what they purport to use race as a proxy for? Why not cut out the proxy? Or just be honest about what you are doing...

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/17/opinion/sunday/the-case-for-black-doctors.html?_r=0

Interesting article.

As a general rule, black patients are more likely to feel comfortable with black doctors. Studies have shown that they are more likely to seek them out for treatment, and to report higher satisfaction with their care. In addition, more black doctors practice in high-poverty communities of color, where physicians are relatively scarce.

It basically says that the racism of black people prevents them from getting good medical care. I'm not sure if that is a good reason to cater to their racism and push out more black doctors. Thoughts? Such arguments could be made by racist white people - that they are not comfortable with a black doctor, are less trusting of them, etc, and I think these concerns would be rightly dismissed.

And the second part of the above seems to be using black as a proxy for being from a high-poverty community and wanting to go back home as a doctor and work there. Could that not be taken into account directly without the race proxy? Do people of other races who come from high-poverty communities, not also have a tendency to go back and address medical care where they grew up?

 

[ronburgundy]

Interesting article.

As a general rule, black patients are more likely to feel comfortable with black doctors. Studies have shown that they are more likely to seek them out for treatment, and to report higher satisfaction with their care. In addition, more black doctors practice in high-poverty communities of color, where physicians are relatively scarce.

It basically says that the racism of black people prevents them from getting good medical care. I'm not sure if that is a good reason to cater to their racism and push out more black doctors. Thoughts? Such arguments could be made by racist white people - that they are not comfortable with a black doctor, are less trusting of them, etc, and I think these concerns would be rightly dismissed.

To be fair, blacks are less trusting of white authorities for legit reasons. However, part of the reason is not legit, namely destructive efforts to promote racial identity which inherently lead people to view others as an "us versus them" dichotomy.

Regardless, it has zero relevance to the vast majority of college majors outside of pre-med or social-work.
Do black people feel uncomfortable entering buildings that weren't designed by black engineers, or using computer programs not written by black programmers?

 

[Toni]

Interesting article.

As a general rule, black patients are more likely to feel comfortable with black doctors. Studies have shown that they are more likely to seek them out for treatment, and to report higher satisfaction with their care. In addition, more black doctors practice in high-poverty communities of color, where physicians are relatively scarce.

It basically says that the racism of black people prevents them from getting good medical care.

No it doesn't. But perhaps YOUR attitudes prevent you from actually understanding the article. And the issues.

I'm not sure if that is a good reason to cater to their racism and push out more black doctors. Thoughts? Such arguments could be made by racist white people - that they are not comfortable with a black doctor, are less trusting of them, etc, and I think these concerns would be rightly dismissed.

Of course, this is the entire history of the western world, at least after the part where blacks were allowed to attend medical school. I grew up hearing similar attitudes expressed about female doctors. Of course, when I was growing up, no one where I lived would have considered the possibility of a black doctor treating a white patient.

And the second part of the above seems to be using black as a proxy for being from a high-poverty community and wanting to go back home as a doctor and work there. Could that not be taken into account directly without the race proxy? Do people of other races who come from high-poverty communities, not also have a tendency to go back and address medical care where they grew up?

Yes, people tend to seek medical care in their neighborhoods if medical care exists there.

People quite often prefer to have medical care provided by people who speak their native language. With very old, very young or very ill or stressed patients, this is usually the best way to provide adequate care because it removes language barriers.

 

[Toni]

Interesting article.



It basically says that the racism of black people prevents them from getting good medical care. I'm not sure if that is a good reason to cater to their racism and push out more black doctors. Thoughts? Such arguments could be made by racist white people - that they are not comfortable with a black doctor, are less trusting of them, etc, and I think these concerns would be rightly dismissed.

To be fair, blacks are less trusting of white authorities for legit reasons. However, part of the reason is not legit, namely destructive efforts to promote racial identity which inherently lead people to view others as an "us versus them" dichotomy.

EXCUSE ME? Who, exactly, do you believe is promoting racial identity leading to an 'us vs them' dichotomy? if it is not whites? I see a lot more white power or white power proxy tshirts and signs in my very progressive 98% white state. None promoting 'black power.'

Regardless, it has zero relevance to the vast majority of college majors outside of pre-med or social-work.

Nursing? Teaching? As I've mentioned several times before, I live in a university community. I am married to an academic. Many of my friends/social contacts are academics. One thing which has been talked about, conversationally, and in depth, is that having female faces, black faces, Asian faces, etc. in front of the class tends to draw more students who are female, black, Asian, etc. to those classes. This is why even the most comfortably white male professor sees the value in having a diverse professorial staff.

Do black people feel uncomfortable entering buildings that weren't designed by black engineers, or using computer programs not written by black programmers?

Careful now: you might be writing from a building designed by a black ARCHITECT, built by black engineers and construction workers and using a program written by a black programmer right this minute.

Is that a shiver I detected running up your spine?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Nursing? Teaching? As I've mentioned several times before, I live in a university community. I am married to an academic. Many of my friends/social contacts are academics. One thing which has been talked about, conversationally, and in depth, is that having female faces, black faces, Asian faces, etc. in front of the class tends to draw more students who are female, black, Asian, etc. to those classes. This is why even the most comfortably white male professor sees the value in having a diverse professorial staff.

Well, why make things harder for asians then?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

It basically says that the racism of black people prevents them from getting good medical care.

No it doesn't. But perhaps YOUR attitudes prevent you from actually understanding the article. And the issues.

Yes, it does. If refusing to go to a doctor because they are not the same race as you isn't racism, then what is it? You can wax on about a history of black people suffering abuse at the hands of doctors who were white, but to then hold this as a racist attitude against other doctors who happen to be white is racism. To hold such an attitude against anybody who isn't black, including asian doctors, is definitely racist. What else would you call it? And if they refuse to get treatment because of that racism... should we encourage and cater to that?

I suppose we could simply accept that racism is a thing we all have in us, and we should expect that for example asian students will relate better to asian teachers, and you could say that we should have more asian teachers if we want to make them comfortable, and discriminate for that in our hiring. Or, you could help them get over such racism and learn to relate to and accept teachers who happen to be black or white.

EXCUSE ME? Who, exactly, do you believe is promoting racial identity leading to an 'us vs them' dichotomy? if it is not whites?

Do you think that it is exclusive to whites? I see white bigots do this. I also see AA advocates doing this. Asian communities (especially recent immigrants) do this too. If Black people refuse to see doctors because they are white, then they are also doing this.

Racism is a HUMAN failing. It isn't exclusive to whites, or any other race, and until we can address it as such, it won't improve.

 

[Trausti]

It's all over the complaint: http://studentsforfairadmissions.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/SFFA-v.-Harvard-Complaint.pdf

I looked at the 1st 10 pages or so of the 120 page complaint. No mention of AA at all. Do you have a particular section or page number to cite?

Please note, I am not making any judgment about the merits of a race discrimination claim. Such a claim does not require AA. And the history of Harvard certainly attests to the clear possibility of discrimination based on ethnic or religious backgrounds.

Use the search function. There's much discussion of affirmative action in there.

 

[ronburgundy]

To be fair, blacks are less trusting of white authorities for legit reasons. However, part of the reason is not legit, namely destructive efforts to promote racial identity which inherently lead people to view others as an "us versus them" dichotomy.

EXCUSE ME? Who, exactly, do you believe is promoting racial identity leading to an 'us vs them' dichotomy? if it is not whites? I see a lot more white power or white power proxy tshirts and signs in my very progressive 98% white state. None promoting 'black power.'

Yes, white supremacists promote racial identity, but so leaders and activists within the non-white communities, except when they do so it is wrongly accepted as a positive thing rather than being just as racist and destructive as when white supremacists do it. "Black Pride" encourages racist segregation and racist identification and an "us versus them" attitude. For anyone, regardless of their race, being proud of who your are or others when it is deserved is fine. Being proud because your are black is racist and divisive. Encouraging people to create an identity and think of themselves as a "black person" is a form of internalizing the very white supremacist notions that individuals are defined by their race. Race and ideas about race are relevant to understanding the world but should not be defining features of personal identity.

Regardless, it has zero relevance to the vast majority of college majors outside of pre-med or social-work.

Nursing? Teaching?

2 majors out of hundreds. Thus, why I very clearly stated "the vast majority" which is in no way contradicted by your ability to cherry pick a couple out of hundreds.

As I've mentioned several times before, I live in a university community. I am married to an academic. Many of my friends/social contacts are academics. One thing which has been talked about, conversationally, and in depth, is that having female faces, black faces, Asian faces, etc. in front of the class tends to draw more students who are female, black, Asian, etc. to those classes.

Sure, like most people, students are racist and sexist, including in those foolish and self-destructive enough to choose their instructors based on race more than anything more meaningful. We should actively work against this and discourage it, in part by acknowledge that it is racist.

Also, 99% of the students in most majors do not go into teaching that subject but rather practicing its skills in a marketplace where end consumers don't know or care the race of the person responsible. At best your argument only applies to faculty hiring, not to student admissions. But even then there are plenty of factors they argue against it. First, use of race inherently means lower qualifications and standards for people hired as a result of using race (as the OP data and all basic logic shows). Lower quality teachers could counteract any benefit of racial identification.

Do black people feel uncomfortable entering buildings that weren't designed by black engineers, or using computer programs not written by black programmers?

Careful now: you might be writing from a building designed by a black ARCHITECT, built by black engineers and construction workers and using a program written by a black programmer right this minute.

I don't need to be careful, I am not racist enough to care one bit about the race of my architect or anything else related to what I buy.
Caring about that is as racist and stupid as caring about the race of your professor or doctor.
Fortunately almost no one cares about that, at least not enough to actually go out of their way to find out when such info is not readily available anyway. That is why your point has zero relevance to student admissions for most majors.

Is that a shiver I detected running up your spine?

No, I suspect that is a case of projection of your own obsession with people's race and the weight you give it.

 

[laughing dog]

Use the search function. There's much discussion of affirmative action in there.

After claiming that AA was all over the complaint, you posted a 120 page document and said "search it" instead of providing a citation for at least a page. I am not going to waste my time trying to substantiate your unsubstantiated claim.

 

[dismal]

Interesting:

Which political leader expressed concern about California universities ‘fill[ing] their entire freshman classes with nothing but Asian Americans’?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...man-classes-with-nothing-but-asian-americans/

I find it disturbing how they assume "universities filled with Asians" is both inevitable without racial preferences and really bad.

 

[Toni]

Nursing? Teaching? As I've mentioned several times before, I live in a university community. I am married to an academic. Many of my friends/social contacts are academics. One thing which has been talked about, conversationally, and in depth, is that having female faces, black faces, Asian faces, etc. in front of the class tends to draw more students who are female, black, Asian, etc. to those classes. This is why even the most comfortably white male professor sees the value in having a diverse professorial staff.

Well, why make things harder for asians then?

I haven't noticed things are harder for Asians. Unless you mean members of the Hmong community. Typically, that is not who is being referred to when 'Asian discrimination' is being discussed. Instead, it is the offspring of immigrants from India and China who feel their children are owed admissions to all of the 8 or 10 universities their children apply to. They must get good value for all of those cram classes, right?

In fact, Asians make up a larger portion of university population than of the general population, unlike blacks and Latinas.

 

[ronburgundy]

Use the search function. There's much discussion of affirmative action in there.

After claiming that AA was all over the complaint, you posted a 120 page document and said "search it" instead of providing a citation for at least a page. I am not going to waste my time trying to substantiate your unsubstantiated claim.

Use race a factor in admissions decisions is the complaint, and is also the definition of AA admissions policies. Thus, every single reference to use of race in admissions is a complaint against AA policies. Since all honest and rational people are very aware of this, it is unlikely they would explicitly use the more abstract term very often rather than specify the actual actions to which that label refers. Thus, your demand for quotes involving those exact words is a predictable red-herring tactic to detract from your total lack of any argument or ability to deny the clear cut racist discrimination hurting non-whites that is inherent to the way Universities employ AA policies at most Universities.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Well, why make things harder for asians then?

I haven't noticed things are harder for Asians. Unless you mean members of the Hmong community. Typically, that is not who is being referred to when 'Asian discrimination' is being discussed. Instead, it is the offspring of immigrants from India and China who feel their children are owed admissions to all of the 8 or 10 universities their children apply to. They must get good value for all of those cram classes, right?

In fact, Asians make up a larger portion of university population than of the general population, unlike blacks and Latinas.

And is that, in your opinion, something which needs to be corrected?

Given that the topic of the thread is discrimination against asians and how they're claiming that the current process is making things harder on them, what are your thoughts on this overrepresentation?

Assuming for the sake of argument that the plantiffs' complaints are factual and asians require higher scores on the various criteria for entrance, should these standards be raised even more for asian students so that less of them get in and the diversity of the university more accurately reflects the diversity of society?