Harvey Weinstein scandal

[Jon Osterman]

I'll admit that in this case John Oliver was out of line. It was a single 40 year old allegation, and Oliver criticises Hoffman because he had "given no evidence to show it didn't happen". Really? What does he expect? What sort of evidence could Hoffman provide? Should he ask someone who was there to be a witness that he didn't grope the girl? Would that satisfy Oliver? I doubt it.

 

[RavenSky]

Black and white fallacy again. There's a huge difference between being socially awkward and hitting somebody. You interpreted what I say as if I was ok with hitting people. Where did I do that? You're just like Jon Osterman trying to pretend that I'm ok with rape. I think you should appologise for being dishonest in the way you discuss this with me. I'm not cool with it.

Since I did not "pretend" anything nor represent anything you said in a "dishonest" way, and I'm "not cool" with people who defend sexual harassers, maybe you should get over yourself and apologise to me.


YOU are trying to minimize what Louis CK did by equating it with being "socially awkward". He wasn't. He was a serial sexual harasser and THAT is what is more like hitting someone.

Get it?

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That's not what he said, though. Most of these people have been serial harassers/abusers... including Louis CK. That doesn't automatically mean anyone else was innocent, though.

In what way was Louis CK a serial harasser?

In the way he pulled his stunt with multiple women

 

[RavenSky]

I'll admit that in this case John Oliver was out of line. It was a single 40 year old allegation, and Oliver criticises Hoffman because he had "given no evidence to show it didn't happen". Really? What does he expect? What sort of evidence could Hoffman provide? Should he ask someone who was there to be a witness that he didn't grope the girl? Would that satisfy Oliver? I doubt it.

There have been three accusations against Dustin Hoffman; but yes, I agree with the rest of what you said. It is impossible for Hoffman (or anyone) to give evidence that something didn't happen.

Unfortunately, the accusations by the first accuser seem very very believable. She wrote letters to her sister as the incidents were happening to complain about them. There was apparently some confrontations on set that could be corroborated. I hate to believe her (because I have always adored him), but I do believe her.

 

[Juma]

You're just like Jon Osterman trying to pretend that I'm ok with rape.

It does sound like you are. You are making excuses for sexual harassment, which is not very far away from rape. Indeed, sexual harassment is seeking sexual contact with someone who does not consent to that contact. It may not yet be physical, but if it heads that way it will become sexual assault and then rape. Sexual harassment is the first step towards rape and should never be excused.

If one can't "flirt" without it becoming sexual harassment, then one should stop flirting! (Though I would cohallenge that any of these allegations could seriously be considered flirting, even by the most misogynist witness.)

You sound as if ”sexual harassment” is a very clear cut concept. It isnt. It depends very much on the context and the apparent social norms of the time and the people involved.

 

[Jon Osterman]

You sound as if ”sexual harassment” is a very clear cut concept. It isnt. It depends very much on the context and the apparent social norms of the time and the people involved.

I strongly disagree. In situations with a power imbalance it is always clear cut. If the person being harassed says it is harassment then it is harassment. When making sexual advances to someone you have power over, it is impossible to assure consent and if consent is absent it is the person making the advance who is at fault. The only dispute one may have is whether the events actually happened as described.

 

[DrZoidberg]

You're just like Jon Osterman trying to pretend that I'm ok with rape.

It does sound like you are. You are making excuses for sexual harassment, which is not very far away from rape.

It's very dishonest of you to try to make that inference. I think it's just a smear tactic to try to shame any opponent into silence. Shame on you. You should be ashamed of yourself. You and Raven.

Indeed, sexual harassment is seeking sexual contact with someone who does not consent to that contact.

No, it's not. That's demanding from anybody flirting to be a mind reader. Hardly realistic, and completely ignores how the world really works.

Sexual harassment* is seeking repeated sexual contact with someone after they've made it clear that it's unwanted. There has to be something predatory about it. Otherwise it's not harassment. There's a grey area between playful flirting and sexual harassment. All failed flirts will end up in that grey area.

*Unless it's a clear breach of ethically conduct, as it is if a boss flirts with an underling or trying to have sex with anybody dependent on you.

It may not yet be physical, but if it heads that way it will become sexual assault and then rape. Sexual harassment is the first step towards rape and should never be excused.

That's like saying that anybody who ever tries a cigarette will inevitably shoot heroin. I don't think that's how it works. I'm pretty sure there's a bell curve here.

If one can't "flirt" without it becoming sexual harassment, then one should stop flirting! (Though I would challenge that any of these allegations could seriously be considered flirting, even by the most misogynist witness.)

In your world a person can't flirt without risking sexual harassment. So I'd suggest that you stop ever trying to have sex at all, or you'd inevitably rape someone. You did try to argue that the inevitable result of accepting sexual harassment is becoming a rapist, and since there's no way of safely flirting... your logic is solid.

Getting the courage to ask a girl out is hard enough without this added layer of bullshit you're trying to attach to it.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Since I did not "pretend" anything nor represent anything you said in a "dishonest" way, and I'm "not cool" with people who defend sexual harassers, maybe you should get over yourself and apologise to me.

Then we're at an impasse. Discussing with someone requires mutual respect. I'm going to need some acknowledgement from you admit to being in the wrong before I continue discussing with you further.

YOU are trying to minimize what Louis CK did by equating it with being "socially awkward". He wasn't. He was a serial sexual harasser and THAT is what is more like hitting someone.

Get it?

In what way was Louis CK a serial harasser?

In the way he pulled his stunt with multiple women

I'll answer this after you've apologized to me.

 

[Arctish]

Side Note: Audio Of Corey Feldman Allegedly Naming Sexual Predators In 1993 Has Been Found

 

[Jon Osterman]

It's very dishonest of you to try to make that inference. I think it's just a smear tactic to try to shame any opponent into silence. Shame on you. You should be ashamed of yourself. You and Raven.

At the very least you are an apologist for sexual harassment. That is a pretty indefensible position in my opinion.

In your world a person can't flirt without risking sexual harassment. So I'd suggest that you stop ever trying to have sex at all, or you'd inevitably rape someone. You did try to argue that the inevitable result of accepting sexual harassment is becoming a rapist, and since there's no way of safely flirting... your logic is solid.

Getting the courage to ask a girl out is hard enough without this added layer of bullshit you're trying to attach to it.

We are not talking about flirting in a bar. We are talking about flirting with colleagues or subordinates over whom you have power. The power dynamic makes it impossible to ascertain consent, and therefore all flirting becomes sexual harassment. It seems pretty simple to me, and I have managed to live my life without sexually harassing women just fine. Why can't you?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Also, if your definition of flirting includes showing your penis to co-workers or grabbing someone's ass during a photo op, you're probably not doing flirting right.

 

[DrZoidberg]

It's very dishonest of you to try to make that inference. I think it's just a smear tactic to try to shame any opponent into silence. Shame on you. You should be ashamed of yourself. You and Raven.

At the very least you are an apologist for sexual harassment. That is a pretty indefensible position in my opinion.

I don't think I am. I think you are creating a world where we don't tolerate any mistakes or mishaps in communication. They're going to happen. That's an indefensible position imho.

In your world a person can't flirt without risking sexual harassment. So I'd suggest that you stop ever trying to have sex at all, or you'd inevitably rape someone. You did try to argue that the inevitable result of accepting sexual harassment is becoming a rapist, and since there's no way of safely flirting... your logic is solid.

Getting the courage to ask a girl out is hard enough without this added layer of bullshit you're trying to attach to it.

We are not talking about flirting in a bar. We are talking about flirting with colleagues or subordinates over whom you have power. The power dynamic makes it impossible to ascertain consent, and therefore all flirting becomes sexual harassment.

You don't get to redefine the topic of discussion right in the middle if it. We are talking about flirting in bars.

It seems pretty simple to me, and I have managed to live my life without sexually harassing women just fine. Why can't you?

How the fuck do you know? Seriously. With your model of guilt it's impossible to know if anyone is innocent. I assume you at some point proposition girl unsuccessfully? Does that make you a sexual predator?

 

[DrZoidberg]

Also, if your definition of flirting includes showing your penis to co-workers or grabbing someone's ass during a photo op, you're probably not doing flirting right.

It depends how the flirting has been going before this. Flirting is like a dance. I make a move. She makes a move. I interpret her reaction and do the next move.

I remember a situation where me and my wife were flirting with a girl and hoping for a threesome. Everything was going great. The three of us were making out on the dance floor and all is dandy. We've even spent time talking. While we're making out I grab her ass. Big mistake. She reels back and slaps me. Much to both me and my wives surprise.

It turned later out that she was a lesbian and her plan was for me and her have sex with my wife and no touching between us two. In hindsight the signs were obvious. But not obvious enough. An honest mistake and nothing that makes me guilty of either sexual assault or harassment.

That was my ass-grabbing anecdote. After this we all ended up becoming friends. And never had sex. I somehow doubt we'd become friends if she felt I was a sexual predator

 

[Tom Sawyer]

A fail to see how that situation is in any way related to the situations being discussed in this thread or that all the fuss over this topic is about.

 

[RavenSky]

It's very dishonest of you to try to make that inference. I think it's just a smear tactic to try to shame any opponent into silence. Shame on you. You should be ashamed of yourself. You and Raven.

The only person who should be ashamed is you for (1) minimizing and excusing sexual harassment, and (2) trying to shut down a discussion by making bullshit "shame on you" accusations.

 

[RavenSky]

Indeed, sexual harassment is seeking sexual contact with someone who does not consent to that contact.

No, it's not. That's demanding from anybody flirting to be a mind reader. Hardly realistic, and completely ignores how the world really works.

Sexual harassment* is seeking repeated sexual contact with someone after they've made it clear that it's unwanted. There has to be something predatory about it. Otherwise it's not harassment. There's a grey area between playful flirting and sexual harassment. All failed flirts will end up in that grey area.

*Unless it's a clear breach of ethically conduct, as it is if a boss flirts with an underling or trying to have sex with anybody dependent on you.

the bolded is completely wrong

Sexual Harassment
It is unlawful to harass a person (an applicant or employee) because of that person’s sex. Harassment can include “sexual harassment” or unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical harassment of a sexual nature.

Harassment does not have to be of a sexual nature, however, and can include offensive remarks about a person’s sex. For example, it is illegal to harass a woman by making offensive comments about women in general.

Both victim and the harasser can be either a woman or a man, and the victim and harasser can be the same sex.

Although the law doesn’t prohibit simple teasing, offhand comments, or isolated incidents that are not very serious, harassment is illegal when it is so frequent or severe that it creates a hostile or offensive work environment or when it results in an adverse employment decision (such as the victim being fired or demoted).

The harasser can be the victim's supervisor, a supervisor in another area, a co-worker, or someone who is not an employee of the employer, such as a client or customer.

https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm

To be clear, sexual harassment does NOT need to be "repeated sexual contact with someone after they've made it clear that it's unwanted."

It is sexual harassment THE VERY FIRST TIME someone makes "unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical harassment of a sexual nature". It becomes ILLEGAL - i.e. prosecutable and the harasser can go to jail - when the sexual harassment is "so frequent or severe that it creates a hostile or offensive work environment or when it results in an adverse employment decision".

Whipping one's dick out to masterbate in front of a woman without first obtaining her unambiguous, affirmative consent IS sexual harassment. These guys don't get to play the "whoops, I won't do it again" card, sorry.

 

[RavenSky]

Then we're at an impasse. Discussing with someone requires mutual respect. I'm going to need some acknowledgement from you admit to being in the wrong before I continue discussing with you further.

YOU are trying to minimize what Louis CK did by equating it with being "socially awkward". He wasn't. He was a serial sexual harasser and THAT is what is more like hitting someone.

Get it?


In the way he pulled his stunt with multiple women

I'll answer this after you've apologized to me.

If you really think you are going to get an apology from me for YOUR fucked up bullshit mischaracterizations and your ridiculous pity party, you will have a REALLY long fucking wait, because it isn't happening.

Discuss the topic like a grown up or don't.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, if your definition of flirting includes showing your penis to co-workers or grabbing someone's ass during a photo op, you're probably not doing flirting right.

^^^ exactly that

 

[TSwizzle]

Also, if your definition of flirting includes showing your penis to co-workers or grabbing someone's ass during a photo op, you're probably not doing flirting right.

What about cupping a breast, is that frowned upon ?

 

[thebeave]

Who knew Dustin Hoffman was such a dirtbag?

And who knew he was so bald?

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/new-dustin-hoffman-accuser-claims-harassment-physical-violation-broadway-guest-column-1062349

One night in Chicago, I felt his hand up under my slip on the inside of my thighs. I was completely surprised and tried to bat him away while watching the stage for my cues. After the show he was busy with the producer and director so I had no access to him to address it. It then happened almost every show. Six to eight shows a week. I couldn’t speak to him in the moment because I was on a live mic. He kept it up and got more and more aggressive. One night he actually started to stick his fingers inside me. Night after night I went home and cried. I withdrew and got depressed and did not have any good interpersonal relationships with the cast. How could the same man who fought to get me the job, who complimented my work, who essentially launched my career, who gave me the benefit of his wisdom as an actor, how could he also be this sexual power abuser? Was I doing something? Was it my fault?

There's a part of me that just wants to see Hollywood taken down. Its always been a bit tiresome and annoying to me to see these sanctimonious hypocritical pricks and cunts getting up on their soapboxes on Oscar night preaching about their pet human rights causes (immigrants, women's rights, LGBT rights, etc). Now many have been busted committing some pretty awful stuff themselves. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, and all that stuff.

 

[Juma]

Who knew Dustin Hoffman was such a dirtbag?

And who knew he was so bald?

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/new-dustin-hoffman-accuser-claims-harassment-physical-violation-broadway-guest-column-1062349

View attachment 13514

One night in Chicago, I felt his hand up under my slip on the inside of my thighs. I was completely surprised and tried to bat him away while watching the stage for my cues. After the show he was busy with the producer and director so I had no access to him to address it. It then happened almost every show. Six to eight shows a week. I couldn’t speak to him in the moment because I was on a live mic. He kept it up and got more and more aggressive. One night he actually started to stick his fingers inside me. Night after night I went home and cried. I withdrew and got depressed and did not have any good interpersonal relationships with the cast. How could the same man who fought to get me the job, who complimented my work, who essentially launched my career, who gave me the benefit of his wisdom as an actor, how could he also be this sexual power abuser? Was I doing something? Was it my fault?

There's a part of me that just wants to see Hollywood taken down. Its always been a bit tiresome and annoying to me to see these sanctimonious hypocritical pricks and cunts getting up on their soapboxes on Oscar night preaching about their pet human rights causes (immigrants, women's rights, LGBT rights, etc). Now many have been busted committing some pretty awful stuff themselves. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, and all that stuff.

Explain to me how this could go on week after week without her telling him it isnt ok?

 

[DrZoidberg]

the bolded is completely wrong

It's not. You clearly need help with reading comprehension. Just for added clarity I added a note with the other type of sexual harassment. You're only talking about the part in the note. Not what I was actually talking about.

Sexual Harassment
It is unlawful to harass a person (an applicant or employee) because of that person’s sex. Harassment can include “sexual harassment” or unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical harassment of a sexual nature.

Harassment does not have to be of a sexual nature, however, and can include offensive remarks about a person’s sex. For example, it is illegal to harass a woman by making offensive comments about women in general.

Both victim and the harasser can be either a woman or a man, and the victim and harasser can be the same sex.

Although the law doesn’t prohibit simple teasing, offhand comments, or isolated incidents that are not very serious, harassment is illegal when it is so frequent or severe that it creates a hostile or offensive work environment or when it results in an adverse employment decision (such as the victim being fired or demoted).

The harasser can be the victim's supervisor, a supervisor in another area, a co-worker, or someone who is not an employee of the employer, such as a client or customer.

https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm

To be clear, sexual harassment does NOT need to be "repeated sexual contact with someone after they've made it clear that it's unwanted."

It is sexual harassment THE VERY FIRST TIME someone makes "unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical harassment of a sexual nature". It becomes ILLEGAL - i.e. prosecutable and the harasser can go to jail - when the sexual harassment is "so frequent or severe that it creates a hostile or offensive work environment or when it results in an adverse employment decision".

It's too narrow. Sexual harassment is a wider concept. It doesn't only have to be a boss and employees, or even two employees at the same level. Sexual harassment can take place anywhere between any people. What makes it sexual harassment is the acts performed, not only who it is.

The bit you quoted is only about sexual harassment in the work place. I'm not talking about that, because it's not interesting. It's very clear cut. I'm talking about the kind of stuff that Louis CK was accused of.

Whipping one's dick out to masterbate in front of a woman without first obtaining her unambiguous, affirmative consent IS sexual harassment. These guys don't get to play the "whoops, I won't do it again" card, sorry.

This is just a string of loaded and vague words. "unambiguous" is ambiguous. Affirmative consent sounds good, but WTF does it mean in practice?

You're just playing word games. I find your strategy to discuss this truly disgusting. I get the feeling you just want to vent rage and actively trying to avoid clear communication about sex. If the goal of #metoo is to help prevent future occurrences of sexual harassment, they and you, are not doing a good job of it. If all this is is a witch hunt not intended to solve anything, congratulations, it's what you got.

Pretending that "unambiguous and affirmative consent" are obvious terms, aren't helping. I haven't heard anybody in this thread agree with me that there's a grey area between ok, and not ok. Until we agree on that we're not discussing reality.

And you still owe me an apology.