DrZoidberg
Contributor
In how many of these #metoo accusations have we heard both sides of the story? In most of these we've heard no side. It's all filtered through journalists not revealing their sources.
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In how many of these #metoo accusations have we heard both sides of the story? In most of these we've heard no side. It's all filtered through journalists not revealing their sources.
TSwizzle
Let's Go Brandon!!
I don't know. In some cases the accused have fessed up and fallen on their sword, Louis CK for example. But I still have not heard what Mat is accused of.
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thebeave
Contributor
Well, Katie Couric has said that Matt pinched her ass on a few occassions.
TSwizzle
Let's Go Brandon!!
Katie Couric is not the person that made the allegations that got Matt fired.
TSwizzle
Let's Go Brandon!!
blastula
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So long Garrison Keillor!
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...a0619edfa05_story.html?utm_term=.59ca308a3095
About an hour after I heard about this, I happened to be listening to an months old podcast, and one guy made a line, "it would be as if Garrisson Keillor had a nasty streak."
Jon Osterman
Member
Personally, I don't think it matters. I am happy to sacrifice a few "celebrities" to teach men (and women) everywhere that sexual harrassment cannot and should not be tolerated on any level in civilsed society. I think the #metoo phenomenon is doing a great job of making sure that this sort of thing will not happen in the future. Everyone is now (rightly) terrified of making any sort of sexual advance that may be misinterpreted or construed as non-consensual. I only hope that fear dow not diminish with time, but instead becomes fully ingrained into our culture.
blastula
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The deets on Lauer. Matt Lauer Accused of Sexual Harassment by Multiple Women (EXCLUSIVE) – Variety
At least three accusers. And contrary to NBC's statement that there were no complaints till now, women claimed they did make complaints. Oh and he's another dick flasher.
At least three accusers. And contrary to NBC's statement that there were no complaints till now, women claimed they did make complaints. Oh and he's another dick flasher.
repoman
Contributor
It was interesting that tonight I had a conversation with a very intelligent woman coworker who is fairly staunchly leftist. She was talking about harassment that she has seen from many white women to black men involving dick grabbing and other unwelcome comments. Interesting stuff.
oh and this is unrelated but probably true. To bad she can't be a witness, since she is dead.
oh and this is unrelated but probably true. To bad she can't be a witness, since she is dead.
repoman
Contributor
So, it seems that maybe Cenk Uygur (who I really like on nuts and bolts policy, but annoys me on identity politics) could be next because of his breezy, flirty style. And this is for what he openly does on air. I would not think it would be fair at all. The people on the show know that it is flirty and open about sexual aspects, if they feel uncomfortable about it they should be on another show.
I am NOT saying he pulls Louis CK crap, but even though the audience likes this way of talking, it must run some legal risk.
I am NOT saying he pulls Louis CK crap, but even though the audience likes this way of talking, it must run some legal risk.
DrZoidberg
Contributor
Don't you think that it's also making sexual harassment an increasingly vague term? I think it should be tolerated on some level. You know... that's what flirting is. If you flirt with someone and it isn't welcome... well... it wasn't welcome. But that's the only way to find out.
Sexual harassment IMHO should be something systematic and a gross violation of another's integrity. Right now our standards are pretty low. I'm still defending Louis CK. I don't think it qualifies. Just being a dick, or socially immature/awkward isn't sexual harassment. People with Aspergers already have a hard time as it is.
I don't think it'll do anything of the sort. I don't think any of these people's behavior will change. Predatory behaviors are compulsive. They need help. What this helps doing, is get predators away from positions of power and influence. Which is a great.
I agree that I think that everyone is now terrified of this. But I think that's awful and evidence of #metoo backfiring. I think it risks becoming ingrained in our culture and I don't want it to.
Everything can be misinterpreted and everything can be construed as non-consensual. So that's not saying much. It's got to be ok to fuck up once in a while. Mistakes should be fine. It's when they're not mistakes that we should be concerned. But right now these are confused and it's all just one big witch hunt. And it seems to me that you're happy about this?
Jon Osterman
Member
No, I don't think so. It is making it clearer for everyone that previously "accepted" behaviours will no longer be tolerated. For example, it is not OK to flirt in the workplace because that is harassment. Indeed, wherever there is power imbalance it becomes inappropriate to flirt in any way, because consent becomes confused. If a boss flirts with a staff member, it is very difficult for them to ask the boss to desist because of the position of authority and perceived harm it might cause their career.
If a person is incapable of social interaction, they should not be put in a position of authority.
Good! We want people to be afraid of being caught for sexual harassment. Maybe they will pause and think before doing it!
A witch hunt is not a bad thing if it actually catches witches. And it seems to me that we are finally catching up with a lot of them, who have been allowed to abuse their power for too long. Most of these cases have not been isolated "fuck-ups" - they have been systematic harassment, ingrained in their way of life.
thebeave
Contributor
Hasta La Vista, Russell Simmons. Not familiar with the guy's work that much, but I understand he is pretty powerful and wealthy.
http://www.tmz.com/2017/11/30/russell-simmons-sexual-assault-jenny-lumet-stepping-down-def-jam/
http://www.tmz.com/2017/11/30/russell-simmons-sexual-assault-jenny-lumet-stepping-down-def-jam/
DrZoidberg
Contributor
That's a clean cut example. Louis CK got guilted into accepting fault simply because he was famous. Should famous people not flirt? Because their fame will always create a power imbalance? A lot of these examples are not between bosses and underlings.
Well... sometimes we don't have that luxury. Sometimes we're stuck with having the guy who is the most competent. I work in IT now. It's overrun by anti-socials. My boss is brilliant. Extremely intelligent. Great fun. A super source of knowledge. But not supporting for one moment. A complete idiot when it comes to how to behave socially. Would I have wanted another boss? Sure? Would I have wanted a boss who was socially skilled, but didn't know what I was doing? I've had bosses like that as well. No, I wouldn't. Sometimes having socially inept people in positions of authority is worth it.
BTW, my boss doesn't flirt at work. He's not inept in that way. He's just generally bad at knowing what to say when. Anything he says to put people at ease backfires.
Your attitude truly scares me. It's nice that "most" of these cases haven't been isolated "fuck-ups". Why not demand that all of them are? You've already admitted that it's ok that some innocents get thrown under the buss, as long as we nail badies. That's not how a civilized society should work IMHO.
Newsflash... witches don't exist. All those witches burned for witchcraft were innocent. Just because people feel really strongly about something doesn't make it true. That's what the term witch hunt means. Being guilty becomes uninteresting. The only thing that matters is whether you've virtue signalled enough. Appearance over substance.
TSwizzle
Let's Go Brandon!!
Louis CK has a problem and he has been forced to confront it. He accepts that he was at fault. Do you even know what flirting is ? Getting your dick out and rubbing one out in front of women uninvited is not flirting. Approaching women in the work place and asking them to come back to your office to watch you masturbate is not flirting. Women are sick of this behavior and are not going to tolerate it no matter who it is or what industry is involved.
Jon Osterman
Member
So, to sumarise, your boss is bad at an essential part of his job but good at others, and you feel the good outweighs the bad. Fair enough, but if the bad part had included sexually harassing his staff, it really wouldn't have outweighed the good.
"fuck-up" was your expression by the way. I am not quite sure what you mean by your comment. Are you suggesting, for example, someone who commits rape shouldn't be punished because it was an isolated "fuck-up"? Just give them another chance? That's not how a civilized society should work IMHO.
Witches don't exist, but rapists do, and its time they were held accountable.
DBT
Contributor
It's on a roll, growing from a wave to a tsunami.
RavenSky
The Doctor's Wife
and yet, we still have Trump and Roy Moore
DrZoidberg
Contributor
Come on. "Approaching women in the work place". Which also is a bar. We have special social rules regarding flirting around office buildings that do not apply when you're in a bar. If you work in a bar you are expected to put up with being propositioned. He asked them to come with him to his room. That belongs to the category of things that could be a sexual invitation. Perhaps they had been in on it if it had involved other sexual acts. Who knows? I think all the stuff he did is grey area stuff. It's not cool. But pretty fucking far from sexual assault. And a world apart from stuff that Harvey Weinstein did.
We're all sick of socially awkward and clumsy behaviours. My boss, bless his clever little heart, does not know how to interact with people. I'm fucking sick of it. But that's life. We can't demand from other people that they, at all times, behave appropriately. There's got to be a range. On one end we have the "great, keep doing that". On the other end we have mental abuse and sexual assault. And in the middle we've got a grey area of stuff that doesn't clearly fit in either category. We simply have to accept this, or society won't function. There's loads of people out there for one reason or another just can't get it right. Autists for instance. Do we really want a world where those less than perfect are socially prohibited from interacting with others?
By the looks of it Louis CK learned from his mistakes. This was all stuff he did during a short period just when he was starting to get big. That implies that he stopped. We also have to give room for people to learn from their mistakes. And if we do that we need to allow mistakes.
I doubt we'll see eye to eye on this. We just seem to be too far apart on this.