Has science shown Roundup to be safe?

[DrZoidberg]

Can you point to any study where dihydrogen monoxide was tested?

Peez

I remember reading about a study in which glyphosate was mixed with dihydrogen monoxide and applied to plants. Can't recall the name of the study though. Sorry.

I once watered my plants at home with dihidrogen monoxide, but I got the dosage wrong, and they all rotted and died! How can that be legal to sell in shops! Outrage

 

[Kharakov]

I don't know about Sweden, but they sell the pure, distilled stuff at grocery stores here.

It's such a powerful substance that it is used in many batteries, even though it kills about 10 people per day (on average) here in the USA!

It kills far more people than glyphosate, yet it's all over the place, and it's completely, 100% legal. I think we all know what the real problem substance is, but the dihydrogen monoxide lobby is extremely powerful. Sigh. I think it's time to curl up in a ball and cry. Crap. I better not cry.

 

[thebeave]

Heh. I pulled the dihydrogen monoxide trick on my foodnazi aunt last summer at a 4th of July BBQ. She was trying to shame me for drinking a soda, telling me all about the bad things in it. I said, looking at the can, "It says its has dihydrogen monoxide in it. What does that do to you?". She about flipped out, and got all high and mighty and said, "See what I mean, just from the name you know it can't be good for you!?" My uncle (her husband) was standing behind her and laughing his ass off, as he has to put up with food bossiness every day. She knows not to fuck with me anymore with regard to what I eat.

 

[Will Wiley]

So....no one can point to any study where Roundup was tested?

So, no one can point to a good reason that Roundup needs to be tested independently of it's components?

Because glyphosate is not sprayed on your food, Roundup is.

 

[Will Wiley]

So....no one can point to any study where Roundup was tested?

What you need to come up with is a reason why we should? All I've seen from you is pseudo-scientific waffling.

You stated earlier tin this thread that...

Glyphosate and Roundup is the same thing

...can you explain why you believe this to be the case? If glyphosate is only 40% of roundup, how can they be the same thing?


Roundup Revelation: Weed Killer Adjuvants May Boost Toxicity

Although the glyphosate-based herbicide Roundup is generally thought to be less toxic to the ecosystem than other pesticides, concerns about its effects on human reproduction persist. In a study in Ontario, Canada, exposure of male farmers to glyphosate-based herbicides was associated with an increase in miscarriage and premature birth in farm families. Seeking an explanation for these pregnancy-related problems, researchers at France’s Université de Caen investigated the effects of the full Roundup formulation and glyphosate alone on cultured human placental cells [EHP 113:716–720]. The herbicide, they found, killed the cells at concentrations far below those used in agricultural practice. Surprisingly, they also found that Roundup was at least twice as toxic as glyphosate alone.

Virtually all previous testing of Roundup for long-term health damage has been done on glyphosate rather than on the full herbicide formulation, of which glyphosate makes up only around 40%. The remainder consists of inactive ingredients including adjuvants, chemicals that are added to improve the performance of the active ingredient. Roundup’s main adjuvant is the surfactant polyethoxylated tallowamine, which helps glyphosate penetrate plant cells.

The Roundup concentration recommended for agricultural use is 1–2% in water. The authors incubated placental cells with various concentrations of Roundup (up to 2.0%) or equivalent concentrations of glyphosate. The viability of the cells was measured after 18, 24, and 48 hours. No one is sure how Roundup interferes with reproduction, so the team also tested whether it, like other pesticides, would disrupt the activity of aromatase (an enzyme that regulates estrogen synthesis) in placental cells. Aromatase activity was measured after 1 hour and 18 hours.

The researchers found that a 2.0% concentration of Roundup and an equivalent concentration of glyphosate killed 90% of the cultured cells after 18 hours’ incubation. The median lethal dose for Roundup (0.7%) was nearly half that for glyphosate, meaning Roundup was nearly twice as toxic as the single chemical alone. Further, the viability of cells exposed to glyphosate was considerably reduced when even minute dilutions of Roundup were added.

After an hour’s incubation with Roundup, estrogen synthesis in placental cells (as shown by aromatase activity) was enhanced by about 40%. After 18 hours, however, synthesis was inhibited, perhaps reflecting an effect on aromatase gene expression. This effect was not seen with glyphosate alone.

The study showed that the effect of Roundup on cell viability increased with time and was obtained with concentrations of the formulation 10 times lower than those recommended for agricultural use. Roundup also disrupted aromatase activity at concentrations 100 times lower than those used in agriculture. The researchers suspect that the adjuvants used in Roundup enhance the bioavailability and/or bioaccumulation of glyphosate.

How these findings translate into activity of Roundup in the human body is hard to say. The French researchers point out that serum proteins can bind to chemicals and reduce their availability—and therefore their toxicity—to cells. Nevertheless, the authors conclude that the demonstrated toxicity of Roundup, even at concentrations below those in agricultural use, could contribute to some reproduction problems

 

[Will Wiley]

I don't know about that; But as I value reality, and my health,
.

If you valued your health you would not use Roundup on the basis of tests on glyphosate. You would want Roundup to be tested.

 

[Will Wiley]

I don't know about Sweden, but they sell the pure, distilled stuff at grocery stores here.

It's such a powerful substance that it is used in many batteries, even though it kills about 10 people per day (on average) here in the USA!

It kills far more people than glyphosate, yet it's all over the place, and it's completely, 100% legal. I think we all know what the real problem substance is, but the dihydrogen monoxide lobby is extremely powerful. Sigh. I think it's time to curl up in a ball and cry. Crap. I better not cry.

So if I put 40% water in a glass and 60% other chemicals that have not been tested. Will you drink it?

 

[DrZoidberg]

What you need to come up with is a reason why we should? All I've seen from you is pseudo-scientific waffling.

You stated earlier tin this thread that...

Glyphosate and Roundup is the same thing

...can you explain why you believe this to be the case? If glyphosate is only 40% of roundup, how can they be the same thing?


Roundup Revelation: Weed Killer Adjuvants May Boost Toxicity

Although the glyphosate-based herbicide Roundup is generally thought to be less toxic to the ecosystem than other pesticides, concerns about its effects on human reproduction persist. In a study in Ontario, Canada, exposure of male farmers to glyphosate-based herbicides was associated with an increase in miscarriage and premature birth in farm families. Seeking an explanation for these pregnancy-related problems, researchers at France’s Université de Caen investigated the effects of the full Roundup formulation and glyphosate alone on cultured human placental cells [EHP 113:716–720]. The herbicide, they found, killed the cells at concentrations far below those used in agricultural practice. Surprisingly, they also found that Roundup was at least twice as toxic as glyphosate alone.

Virtually all previous testing of Roundup for long-term health damage has been done on glyphosate rather than on the full herbicide formulation, of which glyphosate makes up only around 40%. The remainder consists of inactive ingredients including adjuvants, chemicals that are added to improve the performance of the active ingredient. Roundup’s main adjuvant is the surfactant polyethoxylated tallowamine, which helps glyphosate penetrate plant cells.

The Roundup concentration recommended for agricultural use is 1–2% in water. The authors incubated placental cells with various concentrations of Roundup (up to 2.0%) or equivalent concentrations of glyphosate. The viability of the cells was measured after 18, 24, and 48 hours. No one is sure how Roundup interferes with reproduction, so the team also tested whether it, like other pesticides, would disrupt the activity of aromatase (an enzyme that regulates estrogen synthesis) in placental cells. Aromatase activity was measured after 1 hour and 18 hours.

The researchers found that a 2.0% concentration of Roundup and an equivalent concentration of glyphosate killed 90% of the cultured cells after 18 hours’ incubation. The median lethal dose for Roundup (0.7%) was nearly half that for glyphosate, meaning Roundup was nearly twice as toxic as the single chemical alone. Further, the viability of cells exposed to glyphosate was considerably reduced when even minute dilutions of Roundup were added.

After an hour’s incubation with Roundup, estrogen synthesis in placental cells (as shown by aromatase activity) was enhanced by about 40%. After 18 hours, however, synthesis was inhibited, perhaps reflecting an effect on aromatase gene expression. This effect was not seen with glyphosate alone.

The study showed that the effect of Roundup on cell viability increased with time and was obtained with concentrations of the formulation 10 times lower than those recommended for agricultural use. Roundup also disrupted aromatase activity at concentrations 100 times lower than those used in agriculture. The researchers suspect that the adjuvants used in Roundup enhance the bioavailability and/or bioaccumulation of glyphosate.

How these findings translate into activity of Roundup in the human body is hard to say. The French researchers point out that serum proteins can bind to chemicals and reduce their availability—and therefore their toxicity—to cells. Nevertheless, the authors conclude that the demonstrated toxicity of Roundup, even at concentrations below those in agricultural use, could contribute to some reproduction problems

Yes, it's a solid piece of science. But it doesn't prove what you think it proves. Some googling shows that it's only cited by anti-GMO nutters who don't either understand sciency.

But thanks for the name. Some quick googling of her she seems to be a hoot. Very similar to Ben Goldacre. The world needs more vocal scientists who enjoy being controversial while also be able to write.

But be careful when spreading anti-GMO stuff like this. I've read a few tragic articles about scientists who do studies who end up being widely cited by anti-GMO and they then end up having to waste 10+ years of their lives explaining to idiots how they've misunderstood the conclusion. The result being that their scientific career being basically destroyed, leading to depression and other nastiness. Spreading this kind of stuff isn't harmless. But in this case it seems to be alright. Dorothy Bonn is well established enough to be able to ignore it. But more junior researchers often can't.

 

[Will Wiley]

You stated earlier tin this thread that...

Glyphosate and Roundup is the same thing

...can you explain why you believe this to be the case? If glyphosate is only 40% of roundup, how can they be the same thing?


Roundup Revelation: Weed Killer Adjuvants May Boost Toxicity

Although the glyphosate-based herbicide Roundup is generally thought to be less toxic to the ecosystem than other pesticides, concerns about its effects on human reproduction persist. In a study in Ontario, Canada, exposure of male farmers to glyphosate-based herbicides was associated with an increase in miscarriage and premature birth in farm families. Seeking an explanation for these pregnancy-related problems, researchers at France’s Université de Caen investigated the effects of the full Roundup formulation and glyphosate alone on cultured human placental cells [EHP 113:716–720]. The herbicide, they found, killed the cells at concentrations far below those used in agricultural practice. Surprisingly, they also found that Roundup was at least twice as toxic as glyphosate alone.

Virtually all previous testing of Roundup for long-term health damage has been done on glyphosate rather than on the full herbicide formulation, of which glyphosate makes up only around 40%. The remainder consists of inactive ingredients including adjuvants, chemicals that are added to improve the performance of the active ingredient. Roundup’s main adjuvant is the surfactant polyethoxylated tallowamine, which helps glyphosate penetrate plant cells.

The Roundup concentration recommended for agricultural use is 1–2% in water. The authors incubated placental cells with various concentrations of Roundup (up to 2.0%) or equivalent concentrations of glyphosate. The viability of the cells was measured after 18, 24, and 48 hours. No one is sure how Roundup interferes with reproduction, so the team also tested whether it, like other pesticides, would disrupt the activity of aromatase (an enzyme that regulates estrogen synthesis) in placental cells. Aromatase activity was measured after 1 hour and 18 hours.

The researchers found that a 2.0% concentration of Roundup and an equivalent concentration of glyphosate killed 90% of the cultured cells after 18 hours’ incubation. The median lethal dose for Roundup (0.7%) was nearly half that for glyphosate, meaning Roundup was nearly twice as toxic as the single chemical alone. Further, the viability of cells exposed to glyphosate was considerably reduced when even minute dilutions of Roundup were added.

After an hour’s incubation with Roundup, estrogen synthesis in placental cells (as shown by aromatase activity) was enhanced by about 40%. After 18 hours, however, synthesis was inhibited, perhaps reflecting an effect on aromatase gene expression. This effect was not seen with glyphosate alone.

The study showed that the effect of Roundup on cell viability increased with time and was obtained with concentrations of the formulation 10 times lower than those recommended for agricultural use. Roundup also disrupted aromatase activity at concentrations 100 times lower than those used in agriculture. The researchers suspect that the adjuvants used in Roundup enhance the bioavailability and/or bioaccumulation of glyphosate.

How these findings translate into activity of Roundup in the human body is hard to say. The French researchers point out that serum proteins can bind to chemicals and reduce their availability—and therefore their toxicity—to cells. Nevertheless, the authors conclude that the demonstrated toxicity of Roundup, even at concentrations below those in agricultural use, could contribute to some reproduction problems

Yes, it's a solid piece of science. But it doesn't prove what you think it proves. Some googling shows that it's only cited by anti-GMO nutters who don't either understand sciency.

But thanks for the name. Some quick googling of her she seems to be a hoot. Very similar to Ben Goldacre. The world needs more vocal scientists who enjoy being controversial while also be able to write.

But be careful when spreading anti-GMO stuff like this. I've read a few tragic articles about scientists who do studies who end up being widely cited by anti-GMO and they then end up having to waste 10+ years of their lives explaining to idiots how they've misunderstood the conclusion. The result being that their scientific career being basically destroyed, leading to depression and other nastiness. Spreading this kind of stuff isn't harmless. But in this case it seems to be alright. Dorothy Bonn is well established enough to be able to ignore it. But more junior researchers often can't.

When all you guys can do is attack the messenger rather than refute the message, then I have no respect for you.

 

[bilby]

So, no one can point to a good reason that Roundup needs to be tested independently of it's components?

Because glyphosate is not sprayed on your food, Roundup is.

In the same way that you don't drink water, you drink Mount Franklin.

If you don't know the difference between a substance and a trade name, then you really are not competent to argue that they are different things. (Hint: They are not).

Different formulations of Roundup contain different amounts of Glyphosate - for example, Roundup 'Lawn and Garden' is 18 percent, and Roundup 'Concentrate' contains 41 percent Glyphosate. In all cases, the vast majority of the rest is water. And (with the exception of Roundup 'Ready to Use'), the idea is that the user should add more water to reach the appropriate concentration of Glyphosate for the particular spray system they are going to use, and the particular weeds they wish to kill.

 

[Keith&Co.]

So, no one can point to a good reason that Roundup needs to be tested independently of it's components?

Because glyphosate is not sprayed on your food, Roundup is.

I thought I asked for a good reason, not babbling ignorance....?

 

[Malintent]

Well, Johnson and Johnson are being sued by women that have been using Baby Powder and have subsequently gotten cervical cancer.

I guess their defense can be that Baby Powder is not exactly the same as Talcum... it has other things in it like fragrances... which everyone knows totally prevents cancer in people that stuff talcum up their vaginas.

Just don't ask where they get the ground up babies to add to the Talc to transform it into baby powder.

got me thinking about lactose intolerance too... maybe those that are lactose intolerant can simply add some chocolate syrup to make a chocolate malted... not milk any more...

 

[Peez]

Will Wiley:
If glyphosate is only 40% of roundup, how can they be the same thing?

Well, if you want to put it that way, then when one mixes 3 parts of roundup in 100 parts of water then you get a mixture that is about 3% roundup. If roundup is only 3% of the stuff you are spraying, how can they be the same thing?

Peez

 

[Peez]

Will Wiley:
Because glyphosate is not sprayed on your food, Roundup is.

No, Roundup is not sprayed on your food, a mixture that contains Roundup is.

Peez

 

[Keith&Co.]

got me thinking about lactose intolerance too... maybe those that are lactose intolerant can simply add some chocolate syrup to make a chocolate malted... not milk any more...

That actually is a treatment for some cases of lactose intolerance. Something about the sugar changing the body's reaction. Depends on the degree of intolerance, IIRC.
On the other hand, adding syrup to the milk does NOT mean that you're not drinking milk...

 

[Kharakov]

I don't know about Sweden, but they sell the pure, distilled stuff at grocery stores here.

It's such a powerful substance that it is used in many batteries, even though it kills about 10 people per day (on average) here in the USA!

It kills far more people than glyphosate, yet it's all over the place, and it's completely, 100% legal. I think we all know what the real problem substance is, but the dihydrogen monoxide lobby is extremely powerful. Sigh. I think it's time to curl up in a ball and cry. Crap. I better not cry.

So if I put 40% water in a glass and 60% other chemicals that have not been tested. Will you drink it?

Probably. There is a reason I don't have a job and live on the street. Not too sure what it is, but it may rhyme with "daisy".

 

[Will Wiley]

Will Wiley:
If glyphosate is only 40% of roundup, how can they be the same thing?

Well, if you want to put it that way, then when one mixes 3 parts of roundup in 100 parts of water then you get a mixture that is about 3% roundup. If roundup is only 3% of the stuff you are spraying, how can they be the same thing?

Peez

Do you know of any science that tells us the effects of glyphosate are the same as the effects of Roundup?

Do you think we should use science to work this out?


Why bother adding any extra chemicals if they are the same?.....sheesh!

 

[DrZoidberg]

Well, if you want to put it that way, then when one mixes 3 parts of roundup in 100 parts of water then you get a mixture that is about 3% roundup. If roundup is only 3% of the stuff you are spraying, how can they be the same thing?

Peez

Do you know of any science that tells us the effects of glyphosate are the same as the effects of Roundup?

Do you think we should use science to work this out?

Why bother adding any extra chemicals if they are the same?.....sheesh!

To increase shelf life and to aid it dissolving properly?

How chemicals react with one another isn't magical or random. Some things chemists can deduce without the need to test every single permutation of chemical compositions.

In Sweden we have the expression "trygghetsmissbrukare"/"safety addict". It's people so preoccupied with safety that it's all they ever do. It becomes an obsession and they're infinitely suspicious of anything and everything. I get this vibe from you?

One thing the anti-GMO/alt-med/whole foods crowd neglect to realise, is that this world is to a large extent fuelled by the alt med/supplement/whole food market. These are mostly controlled by huge corporations that constantly churn out new mom & pop alternative brands. But most are controlled by only a few giants. The eco friendly food industry is massive. And their advertising is anti-GMO propaganda. Ben & Jerry's was an early supporter of anti-GMO and it's endorsement led to skyrocketing sales. So other brands jumped onto the bandwagon.

This isn't GMO giants against whole food David's. This is a battle between giants. I think you're just spreading corporate advertising.

 

[Peez]

Well, if you want to put it that way, then when one mixes 3 parts of roundup in 100 parts of water then you get a mixture that is about 3% roundup. If roundup is only 3% of the stuff you are spraying, how can they be the same thing?

Peez

Do you know of any science that tells us the effects of glyphosate are the same as the effects of Roundup?

Do you think we should use science to work this out?


Why bother adding any extra chemicals if they are the same?.....sheesh!

So....no one can point to any study where a mixture that is about 3% Roundup was tested?

Peez

 

[bilby]

Do you know of any science that tells us the effects of glyphosate are the same as the effects of Roundup?

Do you think we should use science to work this out?


Why bother adding any extra chemicals if they are the same?.....sheesh!

So....no one can point to any study where a mixture that is about 3% Roundup was tested?

Peez

Or perhaps water isn't a chemical. Would the result be different if we used Dihydrogen Monoxide, or Oxidane, or a solution of Hydroxinium Hydroxide, any of which can be found in Roundup? How do we know that those chemicals are not making the Glyphosate more toxic??

Won't somebody please think of the children???