Hate begets Hate: "Scholar" says Palestinian civilians are legimate targets because they voted in Hamas

[Crazy Eddie]

Considering they hit gaza's only power plant, YES IT HAS.

Hamas fired from the power plant.

No they didn't.

But it's cute how you change the subject away from the fact that your earlier statement -- that the fighting hasn't affected all of Gaza -- is demonstrably false.

Also, the power lines between Israel and Gaza were not hit by Hamas rocket fire. They were severed several years ago during airstrikes of Operation Cast Lead and have not worked since.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Hamas fired from the power plant. The link where power comes in from Israel has also been down for a while because it was hit by Hamas fire and understandably the linemen don't want to fix it under fire.

Looks like Hamas doesn't want power in Gaza.

I suppose it is no wonder Israel tacitly supported Hamas and allowed Hamas to grow for all those years.

What a nice scapegoat it makes.

I don't see the connection between what I said and your reply.


BTW, more evidence that Hamas wants it's people to suffer: They attacked the cargo crossing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJBQ4h41bEQ

That's not a military target, that's the main supply line for Gaza.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Hamas fired from the power plant.

No they didn't.

But it's cute how you change the subject away from the fact that your earlier statement -- that the fighting hasn't affected all of Gaza -- is demonstrably false.

Also, the power lines between Israel and Gaza were not hit by Hamas rocket fire. They were severed several years ago during airstrikes of Operation Cast Lead and have not worked since.

Secondary effects are different than being in harm's way.

 

[Arctish]

BTW, more evidence that Hamas wants it's people to suffer: They attacked the cargo crossing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJBQ4h41bEQ

That's not a military target, that's the main supply line for Gaza.

How is this evidence Hamas wants Gazans to suffer?

Hamas is trying to get the blockade lifted and the prison walls destroyed. Hamas has blown up a chunk of it before and gave their constituents a brief opportunity to go grocery shopping. If that military outpost is the main barricade keeping Gazans in and the goods and services they want out, then obviously it's going to be high on the list of Israeli shit that needs to be reduced to rubble.

I realize you want the Gazans to blame Hamas for their plight. That's not going to happen as long as Israel keeps them imprisoned. People with little in the way of food, medicine, or other goods look at that Israeli-built choke point and blame the people who built and maintain it for it's effects. They blame the IDF soldiers enforcing the blockade for the fact Gazan goods don't always make it to markets in Europe, and European donations don't always make it into Gaza. They blame Israel for the choices Israel made when it spent untold millions to isolate Gaza and become The Decider of how much food Gazans are allowed to have.

As long as Israel picks and chooses what Gazans are allowed to import, Israel gets the blame if the flow of goods is insufficient to meet the needs of the people.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

BTW, more evidence that Hamas wants it's people to suffer: They attacked the cargo crossing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJBQ4h41bEQ

That's not a military target, that's the main supply line for Gaza.

How is this evidence Hamas wants Gazans to suffer?

Hamas is trying to get the blockade lifted and the prison walls destroyed. Hamas has blown up a chunk of it before and gave their constituents a brief opportunity to go grocery shopping. If that military outpost is the main barricade keeping Gazans in and the goods and services they want out, then obviously it's going to be high on the list of Israeli shit that needs to be reduced to rubble.

Suppose it was reduced to rubble. How would Gaza fare? Worse! Israel isn't just going to allow stuff through willy-nilly if that facility were destroyed. Besides, it was built with Hamas attacks in mind, it's effectively impossible for them to destroy. They just close it when the attacks come in so people aren't exposed to the incoming fire.

I realize you want the Gazans to blame Hamas for their plight. That's not going to happen as long as Israel keeps them imprisoned. People with little in the way of food, medicine, or other goods look at that Israeli-built choke point and blame the people who built and maintain it for it's effects. They blame the IDF soldiers enforcing the blockade for the fact Gazan goods don't always make it to markets in Europe, and European donations don't always make it into Gaza. They blame Israel for the choices Israel made when it spent untold millions to isolate Gaza and become The Decider of how much food Gazans are allowed to have.

You persist in thinking that Israel why they don't have those things. They're free to buy them--it's just Hamas spends the money on weapons instead. That's not Israel's fault.

As long as Israel picks and chooses what Gazans are allowed to import, Israel gets the blame if the flow of goods is insufficient to meet the needs of the people.

I've posted the list of what's restricted. There's almost nothing in there the average Gazan wants and none of the things you keep whining about are on it.

 

[Arctish]

How is this evidence Hamas wants Gazans to suffer?

Hamas is trying to get the blockade lifted and the prison walls destroyed. Hamas has blown up a chunk of it before and gave their constituents a brief opportunity to go grocery shopping. If that military outpost is the main barricade keeping Gazans in and the goods and services they want out, then obviously it's going to be high on the list of Israeli shit that needs to be reduced to rubble.

Suppose it was reduced to rubble. How would Gaza fare? Worse! Israel isn't just going to allow stuff through willy-nilly if that facility were destroyed. Besides, it was built with Hamas attacks in mind, it's effectively impossible for them to destroy. They just close it when the attacks come in so people aren't exposed to the incoming fire.

I realize you want the Gazans to blame Hamas for their plight. That's not going to happen as long as Israel keeps them imprisoned. People with little in the way of food, medicine, or other goods look at that Israeli-built choke point and blame the people who built and maintain it for it's effects. They blame the IDF soldiers enforcing the blockade for the fact Gazan goods don't always make it to markets in Europe, and European donations don't always make it into Gaza. They blame Israel for the choices Israel made when it spent untold millions to isolate Gaza and become The Decider of how much food Gazans are allowed to have.

You persist in thinking that Israel why they don't have those things. They're free to buy them--it's just Hamas spends the money on weapons instead. That's not Israel's fault.

You contradicted yourself a few sentences back. "Israel isn't just going to allow stuff through willy-nilly if that facility were destroyed." Israel controls what and how much goes into and out of Gaza. You know it, you defend it, but you think Gazans shouldn't hold Israel responsible for the food shortages.

Israel is 100% responsible for the choice it made to spend untold millions to isolate Gaza and place itself in the position of The Decider when it comes to the amount of food, medicine, and other aid the Gazans receive from donor countries. If the Gazans hate Israel for withholding needed supplies, the Israelis have only themselves to blame.

As long as Israel picks and chooses what Gazans are allowed to import, Israel gets the blame if the flow of goods is insufficient to meet the needs of the people.

I've posted the list of what's restricted. There's almost nothing in there the average Gazan wants and none of the things you keep whining about are on it.

As long as Israel acts as The Decider, picking and choosing what and how much the Gazans are permitted to have, Israel will bear the blame if the flow of goods is insufficient to meet the needs of the people. This isn't something that applies only to Israel. It applies anywhere there is a group of people held captive by another.

Prison authorities are responsible for the welfare of their prisoners. If the authorities don't allow enough food to reach the prisoners, it's not the gangs that get the blame for the resulting malnutrition.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

No they didn't.

But it's cute how you change the subject away from the fact that your earlier statement -- that the fighting hasn't affected all of Gaza -- is demonstrably false.

Also, the power lines between Israel and Gaza were not hit by Hamas rocket fire. They were severed several years ago during airstrikes of Operation Cast Lead and have not worked since.

Secondary effects are different than being in harm's way.

Yeah, that's totally what we were just talking about.

 

[untermensche]

...They're free to buy them...

Yes, the people without bread are free to eat cake.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You contradicted yourself a few sentences back. "Israel isn't just going to allow stuff through willy-nilly if that facility were destroyed." Israel controls what and how much goes into and out of Gaza. You know it, you defend it, but you think Gazans shouldn't hold Israel responsible for the food shortages.

I'm saying that Israel isn't responsible for shortages because the limiting factor isn't the crossing, it's what Hamas chooses to import. Israel is not responsible for Hamas spending it's money on rockets rather than food. (And Gaza has about the lowest malnutrition rate of the Arab nations anyway--there isn't a shortage in the first place.)

Israel is 100% responsible for the choice it made to spend untold millions to isolate Gaza and place itself in the position of The Decider when it comes to the amount of food, medicine, and other aid the Gazans receive from donor countries. If the Gazans hate Israel for withholding needed supplies, the Israelis have only themselves to blame.

You continue to base your argument on something that's false.

As long as Israel acts as The Decider, picking and choosing what and how much the Gazans are permitted to have, Israel will bear the blame if the flow of goods is insufficient to meet the needs of the people. This isn't something that applies only to Israel. It applies anywhere there is a group of people held captive by another.

Continuing to repeat yourself doesn't make it true.

Israel says nothing about how much comes through the crossing. I've posted the list of what's allowed in--about the only thing on that list that the average person might want is concrete.

Hamas is the one who decides how much is imported--blame them.

- - - Updated - - -

...They're free to buy them...

Yes, the people without bread are free to eat cake.

1) The limits are imposed by Hamas.

2) Gaza isn't going hungry anyway.

 

[untermensche]

Gaza isn't going hungry anyway.

Just because you can't feel the pangs of hunger in your comfy existence half a world away doesn't mean they aren't there.

 

[Sabine Grant]

Gaza isn't going hungry anyway.

Just because you can't feel the pangs of hunger in your comfy existence half a world away doesn't mean they aren't there.

To add that Loren has not stepped a foot in the Gaza contrary to the IRC workers who do and report their observations :

http://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/documents/feature/2014/07-31-gaza-war-icrc-prcs-emergency-aid.htm

To note :

Since the beginning of the conflict over 350,000 people have fled to camps, schools, places of worship and relatives to seek shelter. But many feel that there is no completely safe place. People live in constant fear of violent death, and many are exhausted from not having slept in days because of the loud, terrifying nights. We work closely with the PRCS to meet the vital needs of the displaced, and have distributed emergency household items and PRCS food parcels to some 3,500 people. CC BY-NC-ND / ICRC

Now why in the world would the ICRC report that "food parcels" were distributed to 3500 people unless those people are struggling to get nutrition on a daily basis?

Then,

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=720070

but apparently food supplies are just a waste because "Gaza is not going hungry anyway".

 

[Shadowy Man]

To add that Loren has not stepped a foot in the Gaza contrary to the IRC workers who do and report their observations :

Loren has stated that all reports coming out of Gaza are controlled by Hamas.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Gaza isn't going hungry anyway.

Just because you can't feel the pangs of hunger in your comfy existence half a world away doesn't mean they aren't there.

And just because you believe Hamas sob stories doesn't mean the people actually are starving.

The malnutrition rate is a good measure--Gaza isn't starving.

- - - Updated - - -

Just because you can't feel the pangs of hunger in your comfy existence half a world away doesn't mean they aren't there.

To add that Loren has not stepped a foot in the Gaza contrary to the IRC workers who do and report their observations :

http://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/documents/feature/2014/07-31-gaza-war-icrc-prcs-emergency-aid.htm

To note :

Since the beginning of the conflict over 350,000 people have fled to camps, schools, places of worship and relatives to seek shelter. But many feel that there is no completely safe place. People live in constant fear of violent death, and many are exhausted from not having slept in days because of the loud, terrifying nights. We work closely with the PRCS to meet the vital needs of the displaced, and have distributed emergency household items and PRCS food parcels to some 3,500 people. CC BY-NC-ND / ICRC

Now why in the world would the ICRC report that "food parcels" were distributed to 3500 people unless those people are struggling to get nutrition on a daily basis?

Then,

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=720070

but apparently food supplies are just a waste because "Gaza is not going hungry anyway".

You're talking about what has happened in time of war.

And you're assuming the need is real--Hamas is very good at making things look worse than they really are.

- - - Updated - - -

To add that Loren has not stepped a foot in the Gaza contrary to the IRC workers who do and report their observations :

Loren has stated that all reports coming out of Gaza are controlled by Hamas.

Not all but most. Going against Hamas is not a good idea if they can retaliate.

 

[Arctish]

I'm saying that Israel isn't responsible for shortages because the limiting factor isn't the crossing, it's what Hamas chooses to import. Israel is not responsible for Hamas spending it's money on rockets rather than food. (And Gaza has about the lowest malnutrition rate of the Arab nations anyway--there isn't a shortage in the first place.)

And I'm saying you are wrong.

You are wrong about the limiting factor that blocks food from reaching Gazan families. You are wrong about the chronic malnutrition. You are wrong about who decides how much food gets imported.

Most of all, you are wrong about who the Gazans blame for their plight. They watched helplessly for over a decade as Israel built those walls and choke-points. They watched helplessly as Israel and the US bought Egyptian cooperation in sealing off their last means of escaping total Israeli rule over their lives. And now they watch helplessly as their children suffer chronic malnutrition whenever the Israelis feel like dishing out a little collective punishment. If you think for one moment they will give the Israelis a pass for the Israeli decision to imprison and abuse them, you know nothing about human nature.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm saying that Israel isn't responsible for shortages because the limiting factor isn't the crossing, it's what Hamas chooses to import. Israel is not responsible for Hamas spending it's money on rockets rather than food. (And Gaza has about the lowest malnutrition rate of the Arab nations anyway--there isn't a shortage in the first place.)

And I'm saying you are wrong.

You are wrong about the limiting factor that blocks food from reaching Gazan families. You are wrong about the chronic malnutrition. You are wrong about who decides how much food gets imported.

Most of all, you are wrong about who the Gazans blame for their plight. They watched helplessly for over a decade as Israel built those walls and choke-points. They watched helplessly as Israel and the US bought Egyptian cooperation in sealing off their last means of escaping total Israeli rule over their lives. And now they watch helplessly as their children suffer chronic malnutrition whenever the Israelis feel like dishing out a little collective punishment. If you think for one moment they will give the Israelis a pass for the Israeli decision to imprison and abuse them, you know nothing about human nature.

Article #1: Things were stuck in the ports due to Hamas attacks. And it even refutes your claim: "Not that the locals are in a position to buy what food there is." In other words, the problem is the crashed economy, not supplies.

Article #2: Again, the economy: "The report says the heavy restrictions on all major sectors of Gaza's economy, compounded by a cost of living increase of at least 40 per cent, is causing "progressive deterioration in food security for up to 70 per cent of Gaza's population". That in turn is forcing people to cut household expenditures down to "survival levels"."

Article #3: That's talking about 7 years ago--a time when the blockade was far tighter than it is now--and it's talking about a plan which Israel says was never implemented anyway.

 

[Arctish]

And I'm saying you are wrong.

You are wrong about the limiting factor that blocks food from reaching Gazan families. You are wrong about the chronic malnutrition. You are wrong about who decides how much food gets imported.

Most of all, you are wrong about who the Gazans blame for their plight. They watched helplessly for over a decade as Israel built those walls and choke-points. They watched helplessly as Israel and the US bought Egyptian cooperation in sealing off their last means of escaping total Israeli rule over their lives. And now they watch helplessly as their children suffer chronic malnutrition whenever the Israelis feel like dishing out a little collective punishment. If you think for one moment they will give the Israelis a pass for the Israeli decision to imprison and abuse them, you know nothing about human nature.

Article #1: Things were stuck in the ports due to Hamas attacks. And it even refutes your claim: "Not that the locals are in a position to buy what food there is." In other words, the problem is the crashed economy, not supplies.

Article #1 also has this:

"Even before the authority's wages crisis, the economy was in dire straits because of the Israeli closure of Gaza. More than 3,000 containers of goods have been stuck at the Karni crossing and the port of Ashdod in Israel for months. The majority of Gaza's farm produce did not reach its markets and had to be sold at a fraction of its value locally."

IOW the problem of the crashed economy, like the food shortages, is the result of Israel's interference with Gazan commerce. Also, the fact the Gazans can't pay for all the international aid sent their way is immaterial. The aid shipments are donations, but they can only reach their intended recipients if Israel allows it. When Israel doesn't allow it, people suffer shortages of food, medicine, and other essential supplies.

Article #2: Again, the economy: "The report says the heavy restrictions on all major sectors of Gaza's economy, compounded by a cost of living increase of at least 40 per cent, is causing "progressive deterioration in food security for up to 70 per cent of Gaza's population". That in turn is forcing people to cut household expenditures down to "survival levels"."

Article #2 makes it clear the "heavy restrictions on all major sectors of Gaza's economy" are imposed by Israel:

"The report says that if the Israeli-imposed embargo is maintained, "economic disintegration will continue and wider segments of the Gaza population will become food insecure".

Arguing that the removal of restrictions on trade "can reverse the trend of impoverishment", the Red Cross warns that "the prolongation of the restrictions risks permanently damaging households' capacity to recover and undermines their ability to attain food security in the long term.""

Article #3: That's talking about 7 years ago--a time when the blockade was far tighter than it is now--and it's talking about a plan which Israel says was never implemented anyway.

COGAT said the plan was never implemented. The Israeli court hearing the case found otherwise. There have been other reports of the Israeli government restricting food to Gaza based on its calculations of the minimum required to stave off outright starvation. As Dov Weisglass, an adviser to Ehud Olmert put it, "The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger". It was a deliberate policy of placing Israel in the position of The Decider when it comes to how much food and other goods the Gazans are allowed to import, and making sure the Gazans are always on the brink of famine.

Denying the reality of Israel's role doesn't make it not true. Israel decides how hungry the Gazans are going to be each week, and the Gazans know it. You know it too, and you defend it, but for some reason you won't say it outright.

 

[untermensche]

Just because you can't feel the pangs of hunger in your comfy existence half a world away doesn't mean they aren't there.

And just because you believe Hamas sob stories doesn't mean the people actually are starving.

Everything is not a Hamas sob story. They have next to no voice in the Western major media.

I believe the UN when it says many are hungry and without sufficient water, and when Israel bombs the hell out of the place things are worse.

 

[Sabine Grant]

Just because you can't feel the pangs of hunger in your comfy existence half a world away doesn't mean they aren't there.

And just because you believe Hamas sob stories doesn't mean the people actually are starving.

The malnutrition rate is a good measure--Gaza isn't starving.

Yet in 2012, a WHO report (and non, they are not "under the control of Hamas"),

http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/3382311D17B44B2B852579FE005040C8

reveals,

23. Anaemia and micronutrient deficiencies are further areas of concern. It is estimated that 50% of infants and young children under two years of age in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip suffer from iron deficiency anaemia, which is associated with inappropriate infant and young child feeding practices and limited access to, or compliance with, micronutrient supplementation. For malnutrition in children under five years, stunting (chronic malnutrition) is not improving and may be deteriorating. A high prevalence of anaemia is revealed among women visiting antenatal services (39.1% of pregnant women in the Gaza Strip and 15.4% in the West Bank). -

Now, why would close to 40% of pregnant women in the Gaza suffer of anaemia if not due to malnutrition? And why would WHO term this as "face food insecurity" :

7. Close to two thirds of the population in the Gaza Strip and 25% in the West Bank face food insecurity.

In case it is not clear to you, "close to 2/3 of the population in the Gaza.... ". Do you somehow believe that facing food insecurity will not result in malnutrition?

Just because you can't feel the pangs of hunger in your comfy existence half a world away doesn't mean they aren't there.

To add that Loren has not stepped a foot in the Gaza contrary to the IRC workers who do and report their observations :

http://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/documents/feature/2014/07-31-gaza-war-icrc-prcs-emergency-aid.htm

To note :

Since the beginning of the conflict over 350,000 people have fled to camps, schools, places of worship and relatives to seek shelter. But many feel that there is no completely safe place. People live in constant fear of violent death, and many are exhausted from not having slept in days because of the loud, terrifying nights. We work closely with the PRCS to meet the vital needs of the displaced, and have distributed emergency household items and PRCS food parcels to some 3,500 people. CC BY-NC-ND / ICRC

Now why in the world would the ICRC report that "food parcels" were distributed to 3500 people unless those people are struggling to get nutrition on a daily basis?

Then,

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=720070

but apparently food supplies are just a waste because "Gaza is not going hungry anyway".

You're talking about what has happened in time of war.

What IS happening NOW in the Gaza as you dismissed the reality of people going hungry in the Gaza. And to note that WHO and from 2012 had already drawn conclusions regarding facing food insecurity in the Gaza, a situation which can only be aggravated by the recent "time of war".

And you're assuming the need is real--Hamas is very good at making things look worse than they really are.

Sure...Hamas used as props fake refugees and succeeded in fooling observers from the ICRC and set up fake wounded civilians in Gaza medical facilities still fooling observers from the ICRC and those 3500 distributed meals are a product of the ICRC imagination. And the WHO report I now linked to revealing malnutrition issues in the Gaza and close to 2/3 of the population facing food insecurity(and that was already happening in 2012) is either the product of "Hamas is very good at making things look worse than they are" or the product of WHO being "under the control of Hamas".

To add that Loren has not stepped a foot in the Gaza contrary to the IRC workers who do and report their observations :

Loren has stated that all reports coming out of Gaza are controlled by Hamas.

Not all but most. Going against Hamas is not a good idea if they can retaliate.

Which does NOT apply to the data I have been linking to. Though you keep dismissing it with asinine one-liner style claims.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Article #1: Things were stuck in the ports due to Hamas attacks. And it even refutes your claim: "Not that the locals are in a position to buy what food there is." In other words, the problem is the crashed economy, not supplies.

Article #1 also has this:

Which is not a rebuttal!

I'm not denying that the economy in Gaza crashed. That's what's going to happen when you pick a fight with your biggest source of revenue--it's one reason democracies are almost always peaceful with other democracies.

COGAT said the plan was never implemented. The Israeli court hearing the case found otherwise.

The Israeli court ordered the release of the documents. That's not the same thing as finding it was implemented.

There have been other reports of the Israeli government restricting food to Gaza based on its calculations of the minimum required to stave off outright starvation. As Dov Weisglass, an adviser to Ehud Olmert put it, "The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger". It was a deliberate policy of placing Israel in the position of The Decider when it comes to how much food and other goods the Gazans are allowed to import, and making sure the Gazans are always on the brink of famine.

Discussing the plan isn't the same as implementing it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And just because you believe Hamas sob stories doesn't mean the people actually are starving.

Everything is not a Hamas sob story. They have next to no voice in the Western major media.

They have a major voice in the western media. Consider, for example:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/0...ets-hamas-capabilities-but-also-hurts-social/

It's going on and on about the social effects of hitting the mosques--yet buried deep in it:

Of the mosques visited by the AP, Al-Qassam stood out as the most suspicious given that three senior Hamas officials perished in the pre-dawn airstrike Saturday and judging by the heavy security presence in the aftermath of the attack. Underlining the tension, an AP reporter was briefly detained by plainclothes Hamas security men after he took down the names of two religious books recovered from the rubble.

Three Hamas commanders in the mosque well before dawn? And why would the reporter be detained unless he was sniffing around something Hamas wanted to keep hidden?

That's pretty clearly a bomb that was on target.

I believe the UN when it says many are hungry and without sufficient water, and when Israel bombs the hell out of the place things are worse.

The UN mostly just reports Hamas "data".