Hearing nuances and emphasis in words

[Wiploc]

To me "squirrel" has 2 syllables and "girl" has only 1. So I am wondering. Are people who insist that this is a close rhyme squeezing "squirrel" into one syllable or stretching "girl" into two?

A one syllable "squirrel" is vaguely familiar. but a two syllable "girl" that rhymes with "squirrel" sounds quite exotic to my ear.

I can't see them rhyming, either.

"el" doesn't rhyme with "irl".

If you're going to pick random parts of the words so you can claim they don't rhyme, why not say that "gir" doesn't rhyme with "rrel"? If you want to be fair, you should either compare "rl" with "rrel" or "irl" with "irrel."

Try to pronounce an "L" by itself. You can't pronounce it without adding a vowel either before or after. You wind up saying something like "el" or "la."

When you pronounce the world "girl," you put an "e" sound before the "L," as if it were spelled "girel." That ending is a lot like the ending of "squirrel." A double "r" sounds a lot like a single one.

If I was scanning a poem with the word "girl" in it, I might call that 1.5 syllables. The reader will pronounce it as one syllable or two depending on which is dictated by the meter. And if that reader pronounces it the other way in the next line, she probably won't even notice the difference.

I infer from this thread that some people, or some dialects, usually stress or linger over the "rrel" of "squirrel" more than they do the "rl" of "girl." I don't have a problem with that, but it is new information.

 

[bilby]

To me "squirrel" has 2 syllables and "girl" has only 1. So I am wondering. Are people who insist that this is a close rhyme squeezing "squirrel" into one syllable or stretching "girl" into two?

A one syllable "squirrel" is vaguely familiar. but a two syllable "girl" that rhymes with "squirrel" sounds quite exotic to my ear.

I can't see them rhyming, either.

"el" doesn't rhyme with "irl".

If you're going to pick random parts of the words so you can claim they don't rhyme, why not say that "gir" doesn't rhyme with "rrel"? If you want to be fair, you should either compare "rl" with "rrel" or "irl" with "irrel."

Try to pronounce an "L" by itself. You can't pronounce it without adding a vowel either before or after. You wind up saying something like "el" or "la."

When you pronounce the world "girl," you put an "e" sound before the "L," as if it were spelled "girel."

I don't. Girl is very definitely one syllable. The r modifies the vowel so it's not 'gill' or 'gull'.

That ending is a lot like the ending of "squirrel." A double "r" sounds a lot like a single one.

The r in 'girl' is silent, and acts only to modify the vowel.

If I was scanning a poem with the word "girl" in it, I might call that 1.5 syllables. The reader will pronounce it as one syllable or two depending on which is dictated by the meter. And if that reader pronounces it the other way in the next line, she probably won't even notice the difference.

I infer from this thread that some people, or some dialects, usually stress or linger over the "rrel" of "squirrel" more than they do the "rl" of "girl." I don't have a problem with that, but it is new information.

The i in 'squirrel' has the same sound as in 'tit', and terminates the first syllable. The second syllable is pronounced 'rul', with the same vowel as 'bug'.

 

[Swammerdami]

In my dialect, squirrel and girl almost rhyme exactly. (We were once accused of speaking like Okies, but I think that's severe exaggeration.)

The i in 'squirrel' has the same sound as in 'tit', and terminates the first syllable. The second syllable is pronounced 'rul', with the same vowel as 'bug'.

Same as in 'tit'?? One of my best expat friends here in the once-grand teak-tree jungle is an Aussie. I often have trouble understanding him.

 

[Swammerdami]

For me, the 'ur' sound in 'girl', 'bird, 'spurn, 'fur' are all almost the same vowel. Bilby is right: the 'r' sound is an essential part of the vowel. In English an explicit 'R' is included in the spelling (are there exceptions?) but not in other languages. French 'peu' sounds about like English 'purr.'

But what is this vowel called? It's not any of the ten vowels primary-school pupils memorize: {Long,Short}×{A,E,I,O,U}.

I'll tell a sad anecdote about this vowel in Thai, but I'll bump another thread to tell it, instead of hijacking this thread.

 

[steve_bank]

For one thing, the English emphasize different syllables. The cockney dialect as well.

MAsage vs massage.

When listening to Australians speak in the news it can be difficult to understand depending on the speaker.

Over here I can have trouble understanding a thick southern accent. Oil can be 'all'.

The American black dialect has unique emphasis and intonations.

 

[zorq]

Many Americans might have seen the "Yeah buoy" meme above and thought that it was amusing because it is reminiscent of 80's hip hop vernacular and Flavor Flav's use of the expression in particular. But I have a British friend who pronounces the word 'buoy' in a way that is almost indistinguishable from the way they pronounce 'boy', which is still very close the standard American pronunciation of 'boy.' As such I suspect that this meme is much less interesting for people with that British vernacular and they see it merely as a simple pun.

 

[bilby]

View attachment 34405
Many Americans might have seen the "Yeah buoy" meme above and thought that it was amusing because it is reminiscent of 80's hip hop vernacular and Flavor Flav's use of the expression in particular. But I have a British friend who pronounces the word 'buoy' in a way that is almost indistinguishable from the way they pronounce 'boy', which is still very close the standard American pronunciation of 'boy.' As such I suspect that this meme is much less interesting for people with that British vernacular and they see it merely as a simple pun.

Boy and Buoy aren't nearly indistinguishable in pronunciation. They are completely identical.

 

[ideologyhunter]

What used to perplex me was the supposed "hw" sound that starts whale. My Random House Websters now gives two pronunciations, one with the h and one without. I have never in my life heard a speaker who pronounced it "hwhale." (That is, unless the h is so breathy and subtle that I don't detect it.) Is there a region where this pronunciation still predominates? My guess is that it's like the k in knife, which was once sounded by English speakers centuries back, until the extra sound fell out of use. Moby Dick is long enough without shoe-horning an extra letter into every whale.

 

[Swammerdami]

What used to perplex me was the supposed "hw" sound that starts whale. My Random House Websters now gives two pronunciations, one with the h and one without. I have never in my life heard a speaker who pronounced it "hwhale." (That is, unless the h is so breathy and subtle that I don't detect it.) Is there a region where this pronunciation still predominates? My guess is that it's like the k in knife, which was once sounded by English speakers centuries back, until the extra sound fell out of use. Moby Dick is long enough without shoe-horning an extra letter into every whale.

Are you saying 'whale' and 'wail' are the same sound? That Charles Prince of Wales is pronounced as 'Prince of Whales'? This is certainly not the case in my dialect.

 

[ideologyhunter]

I'm in Ohio. If I start to say "way" it's the very same way I start to say "whale."

 

[Wiploc]

I'm in Ohio. If I start to say "way" it's the very same way I start to say "whale."

Interesting.

How about "which," "what," and "whether"?

Especially "whether." Do you pronounce it exactly the way you pronounce "weather"?

 

[bilby]

"I saw the Prince of Wales at the art gallery" is an exact homophone with "I saw the prints of whales at the art gallery".

 

[Tigers!]

"I saw the Prince of Wales at the art gallery" is an exact homophone with "I saw the prints of whales at the art gallery".

Perhaps it is my family and I but we pronounce Prince different to prints.
Prince we have the emphasis on the 'ce' but in prints the emphasis in on the 's'

 

[ideologyhunter]

How about "which," "what," and "whether"?

Especially "whether." Do you pronounce it exactly the way you pronounce "weather"?

Straight up. This is Ohio (or, south of I-70, O-hiyuh.) I'm in a little tourist trap town, and if a tourist should ever say to me:
"Howdy. Huh-Whitney Huh-White's the name. From Huh-Wheeling. Passing through. Huh-what restaurants do you recommend? And huh-which attractions should we check out, huh-while we're here?"
...I'd wonder:
1) Asthma?
2) Doesn't that slow your whole life down?
3) Dude, are you coming on to me?

 

[connick]

This is a fascinating conversation. I'm familiar with some of the different pronunciations and inflections described here but others are totally new to me. It's also interesting (but I suppose it shouldn't be surprising) to me that some of you have never heard certain variations that have been mentioned.

As for replacing words in songs, I do it all the time and "squirrel" for "girl" is a classic one for me as I like to replace "I wish that I had Jesse's girl" with "I wish I had a messy squirrel". In the context of those nonsensical lyrics I pronounce squirrel like "squrl" but in ordinary conversation it's slightly more obvious that I'm speaking a word with two syllables. For the record, I'm a few miles out of Boston.

Regarding "wheat", "what", etc., with breathy "H" sound at the beginning, I hope that you will enjoy (if you haven't already) the Family Guy gag on the subject. First it was "cool hwhip" and later appropriated by "hwheat thins".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZmqJQ-nc_s

In the case of these examples:

I want to go!
I WANT to go!
I want to GO!

I think an easy way to demonstrate the difference is to ask questions about each part of the sentence.

Who wants to go?
I want to go.

Do you want to go or do you need to go?
I want to go.

Do you want to go or do you want to blow?
I want to go.

Anyway, I'll think more about pronunciations and inflections that might be unique to my area and worth sharing, and I look forward to seeing more oddities like this from you all.

 

[Swammerdami]

Come to think of it, my H in 'Whale' may be almost inaudible (though I THINK I'm producing it). And when I hear others saying 'wHale' my brain may be imagining the H!