Heaven = A Dog's Life

[bilby]

Ahh. Souls.
























Read it out loud.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Reincarnation IS real. It just isn't reincarnation. Who here thinks they weren't an insect at one time, or a tree, or a dog turd? Hell, in the life we're living now we've been all those things. Probably in a single day the atoms that were part of you went through being part of an insect, some microorganism(s), feces, and who knows what else, maybe two hundred other people separated by hundreds or thousands of miles. You really don't need religious woo to have an awareness of how physical reality operates, though for the unschooled it might substitute well enough.

And yah, some dogs have crappy lives. But that is a good analogy for heaven. I'll have to remember it in future conversations.

This is my view of reincarnation, a naturalist view, not a "person" coming back in another form. As far as I can tell, human ideas of personhood, no matter how real and solid the experience may seem to us, just doesn't translate literally to molecules and processes of nature like decay and growth.

Our bodies are rebuilt approximately annually, as bilby explains. We seem to be cyclical patterns in a larger environment, a swirl in the water.

 

[Angry Floof]

This is my view of reincarnation, a naturalist view, not a "person" coming back in another form. As far as I can tell, human ideas of personhood, no matter how real and solid the experience may seem to us, just doesn't translate literally to molecules and processes of nature like decay and growth.

Our bodies are rebuilt approximately annually, as bilby explains. We seem to be cyclical patterns in a larger environment, a swirl in the water.

How does personal identity cycle in that pattern? That was my point. Most people who believe in reincarnation talk about it as if what they call "me" in this life comes back. Unless you believe that everything in the universe is "me," then no, there's no "me" coming back in any form except in the memories of others. What I call "me" is dependent upon all the factors of this particular, unique body and life experiences. To believe as you, Bilby, and joedad do, there's no reason whatsoever to talk about "me" coming back, and therefore reincarnation is a completely unnecessary word, kind of like "God."

 

[bilby]

Our bodies are rebuilt approximately annually, as bilby explains. We seem to be cyclical patterns in a larger environment, a swirl in the water.

How does personal identity cycle in that pattern? That was my point. Most people who believe in reincarnation talk about it as if what they call "me" in this life comes back. Unless you believe that everything in the universe is "me," then no, there's no "me" coming back in any form except in the memories of others. What I call "me" is dependent upon all the factors of this particular, unique body and life experiences. To believe as you, Bilby, and joedad do, there's no reason whatsoever to talk about "me" coming back, and therefore reincarnation is a completely unnecessary word, kind of like "God."

You can watch a ripple on the water being built up into a great wave, that crosses half the world. The wave is a distinct entity, despite incremental changes throughout its life; but once that wave breaks on the beach, it is gone forever.

No water has gone; all the molecules that were ever part of the wave are still around. But the wave cannot carry on past the beach, and for the same reason, your personal experience cannot carry on after your death.

There are always more waves; but they are in no way incarnations of waves that broke on the shore in the past.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

All that yes.

It's not so very difficult to see yourself in your ancestors and to imagine yourself in your descendants. It's not so crazy to think about people fifty thousand years ago as yourself. At least it isn't to me. Gives me a sense of permanence. No, it's not reincarnation. But it makes me feel better, kind of immortal. It's just something that gives me comfort and so I hold to it.

Not to get off topic, but if more people saw others as themselves maybe the world would get along better. Anyhoo I take a bit of comfort in my fantasy. It's like I can't die. Feels great. And so long as I have the intellect to power it I'll take the peace it brings. It truly does remove any concern about death, though I'm not hurrying to a grave by any means.

 

[Ramaraksha]

Another mystical-sounding but illogical leap. We have a consciousness, give or take. Why equate that with a soul?

I do believe that we as souls desired to be born human and so we are.

Why? Why do you believe that?

But for most human life has been difficult, they want an easier life and so they shall

So, after a hard life, we'll be drawn to pick an easier life the next time? But then, why did we have the hard life in the first place? Why did we pick a hard life? Why didn't we pick an easy life the first time?
And if we had some sort of logical reason for the hard life in the first place, wouldn't that reason still apply for the next life?

As for pain for a tree, i believe you are getting a bit emotional and transferring human feelings to them.

YOU are the one who started describing the tree's life in human terms. And dogs. And grass.

Now you're complaining that your statement was not accepted uncritically.

Consciousness IS the soul- you are just giving it a different name
Why do i believe we are born human? Because we are born human
Why didn't we pick an easy life? Look around - like dropping out of school - will life be easy? yes of course - no more school, no more yelling teachers, no more homework - just sit and watch TV all day! Sure until even parents get tired and kick you out, get a low paid job and regret not going to school. These are the choices - life as a tree is easy but you don't get to wonder about the Universe as humans do
You have had a taste of human life - if all you see life as bad, as a sin as religions like christianity have drummed into people, then an easier life might suit you better. But if you view Life as a Gift, as Hinduism teaches us, then you can't wait to come back in another human life
As for the Tree - where am i describing it in human terms? I am describing it AS a human, what its life would be like. A deer mother within its lifetime will get to see its progeny get ripped apart by lions or hyena - the deer mother has learnt to take it and move on, a human mother wouldn't be able to. In an Eagle's nest, the first born will kill its later born brothers and sisters and the mother will do nothing to stop it and once the weaker later born dies, the mother will rip it apart and feed it to its siblings. Life is different for other life forms - a tree won't survive if it feels every sting of an ant or bug or every time a leaf is plucked. Pain evolved in humans as a way to warn us against danger, a tree can't run away from a fire, pain is useless to it as a warning system