Here Comes The Left

[thebeave]

Y'all make is sound like socialism would be worse than what we have right now.

What socialist countries, past or present, would you say is/was better off than the US with regard to the economy, freedom, opportunities and human rights then ours right now?

Norway, Sweden, Denmark......hell even the UK and France are BETTER than what we have here in the US.

None of these are socialist countries.

 

[Toni]

The reason that it doesn't get implemented here is because kleptocrats fond ways to either sabotage or scare people away from implementation.

The other day I saw a news story that said the Social Security system will be broke by 2032. When do I hit the new and improved "retirement" age when I can start getting back some of the money I put into it?

2032.

I was really hoping for some socialism, but I guess it'll be "work until you die" for me.

It's not going to be broke. It's just going to have to reduce everyone's payments by about 22 percent. If we would stop deporting immigrants and let more in, that would solve part of the problem. If we'd raise the amount of salary that people pay into SS, that would solve most of the problem. It's our lazy, worthless congress that is the primary problem. I might still be alive by 2032, if I live even close to the age that my parents did, so it will impact more than just the younger generations. It will impact many of us who have been receiving the benefit that we paid into for many decades. The Right isn't going to save us. The Left might if they work at it.

Also if we would increase the cap on the income subject to SS payroll taxes, we’d be good. Here, I’m not certain of all of the funding sources but: I believe that paying disability payments to children with some disabilities ( learning problems, behavioral problems—I’m NOT talking about kids with serious intellectual problems) should be funded from different moneys than SS.

I absolutely DO believe that families need financial support for children with disabilities but I’m not sure that those monies should come from SS.

 

[Bronzeage]

Y'all make is sound like socialism would be worse than what we have right now.

What socialist countries, past or present, would you say is/was better off than the US with regard to the economy, freedom, opportunities and human rights then ours right now?

Norway, Sweden, Denmark......hell even the UK and France are BETTER than what we have here in the US.

None of these are socialist countries.

I thought this was a discussion of socialism, not just the kind you don't like.

 

[TomC]

Y'all make is sound like socialism would be worse than what we have right now.

What socialist countries, past or present, would you say is/was better off than the US with regard to the economy, freedom, opportunities and human rights then ours right now?

Norway, Sweden, Denmark......hell even the UK and France are BETTER than what we have here in the US.

None of these are socialist countries.

There's part of the rub. Socialism is a matter of degree. The US has lots of socialism, those countries have more. But they are different in other ways too. They are smaller and more culturally homogeneous.
It's pretty apples and oranges.
Tom

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Y'all make is sound like socialism would be worse than what we have right now.

What socialist countries, past or present, would you say is/was better off than the US with regard to the economy, freedom, opportunities and human rights then ours right now?

Norway, Sweden, Denmark......hell even the UK and France are BETTER than what we have here in the US.

None of these are socialist countries.

I thought this was a discussion of socialism, not just the kind you don't like.

I thought universal healthcare = socialism? I mean that was the narrative before.

 

[Bronzeage]

Y'all make is sound like socialism would be worse than what we have right now.

What socialist countries, past or present, would you say is/was better off than the US with regard to the economy, freedom, opportunities and human rights then ours right now?

Freedom and opportunities are such vague terms. I certainly value the freedom and opportunity to be shot by an ICE Agent who will never face any consequences. Does that count as a human right for me, or the ICE agent? If rights were really an issue, I would have become President and become above the law which the rest of us are subject to, but that's a very limited opportunity. I have a better chance of becoming and ICE agent.

As for the economy, I have no complaints, especially since I'm not one of the 4 out of a 1000 infants who died before my first birthday. Having made it past that hurdle, I've managed to avoid medical expense related bankruptcy.

I consider myself one of the fortunate ones to have been born in a place, time and circumstances which allowed me to prosper, and when problems arose, I could afford the insurance to pay the hospital and doctors who kept me alive. It wasn't because of any economy, freedom, opportunities, or human rights. I just got lucky.

Nobody, including me is saying the US doesn't have its share of problems. Always have, always will. You did not answer the question I asked, though (see bold). Do you have even just one in mind?

Since you have declared Norway, Sweden, and Finland off limits for answers, I'm at a loss to counter your straw man argument.

It seems like being the biggest economy on the planet, while losing 4 out of 1000 babies is more than our share, but if it's one of those "have and always will have" problems, there's no point in looking at the countries that are doing socialism wrong, but have fewer dead babies.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

So we will agree that having stronger unions and collective bargaining (all of which Norway, Sweden and Denmark have) are not socialism? We will agree that requiring more time off for workers is not socialism?

 

[thebeave]

Y'all make is sound like socialism would be worse than what we have right now.

What socialist countries, past or present, would you say is/was better off than the US with regard to the economy, freedom, opportunities and human rights then ours right now?

Norway, Sweden, Denmark......hell even the UK and France are BETTER than what we have here in the US.

None of these are socialist countries.

I thought this was a discussion of socialism, not just the kind you don't like.

Even Denmark's prime minister has told Americans to stop calling it a socialist country:

Denmark’s prime minister says Bernie Sanders is wrong to call his country socialist

Bernie Sanders has long referred to himself as a socialist rather than a member of the Democratic Party, which has naturally led to a lot of questions about what socialism means to him. He consistently references the social models of the Nordic states — especially Denmark — as his idea of what democratic socialism is all about. But in a speech Friday evening at Harvard’s Kennedy School of Government, Danish Prime Minister Lars Løkke Rasmussen said that while he’s flattered to see Denmark discussed in a widely watched US presidential debate he doesn’t think the socialist shoe fits.
“I know that some people in the US associate the Nordic model with some sort of socialism,” he said. “Therefore, I would like to make one thing clear. Denmark is far from a socialist planned economy. Denmark is a market economy.”

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Y'all make is sound like socialism would be worse than what we have right now.

What socialist countries, past or present, would you say is/was better off than the US with regard to the economy, freedom, opportunities and human rights then ours right now?

Norway, Sweden, Denmark......hell even the UK and France are BETTER than what we have here in the US.

None of these are socialist countries.

I thought this was a discussion of socialism, not just the kind you don't like.

Even Denmark's prime minister has told Americans to stop calling it a socialist country:

Denmark’s prime minister says Bernie Sanders is wrong to call his country socialist

Bernie Sanders has long referred to himself as a socialist rather than a member of the Democratic Party, which has naturally led to a lot of questions about what socialism means to him. He consistently references the social models of the Nordic states — especially Denmark — as his idea of what democratic socialism is all about. But in a speech Friday evening at Harvard’s Kennedy School of Government, Danish Prime Minister Lars Løkke Rasmussen said that while he’s flattered to see Denmark discussed in a widely watched US presidential debate he doesn’t think the socialist shoe fits.
“I know that some people in the US associate the Nordic model with some sort of socialism,” he said. “Therefore, I would like to make one thing clear. Denmark is far from a socialist planned economy. Denmark is a market economy.”

That's only if you go by the rigid definition of "socialism" as being "planned economy".

 

[Toni]

I tend to think of myself as a centrist. My adult kids see me as fairly conservative and at least some on this board and some of my conservative friends see me as a far left radical. So I figure I’m a centrist.

That said: I believe in:

Subsidized daycare ( probably means tested) universally available. I don’t think parents ts should be compelled to put their kids in daycare but it needs to be much more accessible and affordable and frankly, for at least most people, free of charge.

I believe in free education for all from preschool through university and perhaps graduate school/professional schools. States have pulled back funding from state universities. This is a significant factor in the rising cost of college and enormous crippling student debt. The biggest concern I have is that government tend to want to control what they fund. I absolutely believe 100% in academic freedom just as I believe 100% in free speech, and freedom of/from religion.

I further believe that the government must not fund private or religious schools at any level.

I very much believe in excellent universal health care, my biggest concern being government intrusion into dictating medical decisions that must be left to patients and their doctors.

I believe in affordable and excellent services for disabled and elderly—including housing and nutrition support, with a focus on helping older adults age in place but also having excellent options if staying at home is no longer desirable or possible.

I believe in strong infrastructure ( all of what I mentioned is infrastructure) including water, transportation, power. Good government services, support for mental health and addiction, law enforcement, social workers/mental health professionals, etc.

American workers NEED more time off. I think that perhaps a 4 day/32hr work week would help but so would having at least 30 vacation days plus holidays plus generous medical and family leave. A year leave ( minimum) after the birth or adoption of a child, plus expanded family leave for ill, injured or disabled or elderly family members).

We also need to more more forcefully away from consumerism and focus more on enjoying our lives rather than the small jolts of endorphins that come from making online purchases.

 

[ZiprHead]

So we will agree that having stronger unions and collective bargaining (all of which Norway, Sweden and Denmark have) are not socialism? We will agree that requiring more time off for workers is not socialism?

Public roads, public schools, public utilities, Social Security, Medicare are all socialism.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

I very much believe in excellent universal health care, my biggest concern being government intrusion into dictating medical decisions that must be left to patients and their doctors.

But you definitely believe us males don't deserve healthcare, right?

 

[TSwizzle]

Newsom is going to try socialism for his presidential run.



It is going to be a hoot watching this clown run for the nomination.

 

[Toni]

I very much believe in excellent universal health care, my biggest concern being government intrusion into dictating medical decisions that must be left to patients and their doctors.

But you definitely believe us males don't deserve healthcare, right?

If someone can drag a male to the doctor, his medical care decisions should be determined by doctor and patient, even if he is a male*

* obviously a joke to play off of GN’s post. Also a play off of the well established among wives difficulty in convincing men they need to see a doctor ‘fact.’

Competent adults get to make their own medical decisions along with their doctors.

 

[Derec]

The left scares me far more than the right. Mao's Cultural Revolution' comes to mind.

You are right. This turn of many Dems toward far left politics, including their alliance with political Islam, is highly concerning.

Take Avila Chevalier whom you mentioned here and whom I also mentioned in lpetrich's "Dems unseating each other" thread. She gave an interview with the New York Editorial Board. In it she goes on with her usual boilerplate of far-left issues like how she opposes all deportations.

But the most ridiculous moment came at the end. She was going on about prison abolition, and the interviewer asked her about what to do with murderers. She tried to evade the question several times, but he kept persisting. In the end she said this:

Well, this is what I’m saying is that when that happens, and as someone who has sat in so many courtrooms, to me, all of that is tragic. The fact that the murder happened is tragic. The fact that there was a circumstance in which that could even come to pass is tragic, and all of that is a reflection of systems that allowed that circumstance to be possible. And so, you know, I have always focused my attention on how do we create systems where that’s not even the possibility.

She wants a world where murder "is not even the possibility"? That's kindergartener level discourse! How can somebody this stupid be admitted to a PhD program at a US university, much less one with as illustrious a past as Columbia? SMH.

 

[Derec]

You should probably stop using fear as your primary lens through which to view the world.

Fear is an important primal emotion. In fact, it has been essential to our survival. If you lack reasonable fear, you get your face eaten by leopards because you want to pet them.

Reality doesn't even get a look in.

There are lot of dangerous things in reality.

 

[Derec]

Y'all make is sound like socialism would be worse than what we have right now.

As somebody who grew up under actually existing socialism: yes, it would be worse. Much worse.

 

[Derec]

This thread is... Something I guess.

Yes. A lot of apologetics by the usual suspects.

You do realize that damn near everything progressives want for America HAS in fact been tried in various places and is wildly successful at making a healthy and stable country be "healthy and stable" somewhere.

Mamdani's chief policy is a freeze on rents. Rent controls have been tried before indeed, but they have not had positive results.

The furthest "left" America gets (Mamdami) is actually to the right of most of Europe where social services are concerned.

BS.

Also, learn to spell his name. I detest the man, but at least I learned to write his name right. It's "Mamdani". He also went by "Mr. Cardamom", so you can try that if it's easier for you.

 

[Derec]

This is the only nutty one on the Left.

No. She may be the worst of the rotten DSA bunch, but she is hardly the only one.
Look no further than Adam Hamawy, who was an associate of the terrorist leader who masterminded the original WTC bombing. Hamawy also thinks Israel should not even have the Iron Dome, because he wants Israel to be more vulnerable to attacks from Hamas, Hezbollah etc.

The others seem fairly reasonable to me and Democratic Socialism is not Communism, so stop pretending it is.

Democratic Socialism is a form of socialism, which is very different than social democracy.
From the DSA constitution.

We are socialists because we reject an economic order based on private profit, alienated labor, gross inequalities of wealth and power, discrimination based on race, gender identity, sexual orientation, disability status, age, religion, and national origin, and brutality and violence in defense of the status quo. We are socialists because we share a vision of a humane social order based on popular control of resources and production, economic planning, equitable distribution, feminism, racial equality, and non-oppressive relationships.

That is proper socialism. The only difference between democratic socialism of the DSA and revolutionary socialism of Lenin is the way they want to impose socialism, not the end goal.

Under Marxist theory, socialism is a transition state on the way to communism, which is this quasi-utopian end-state where even the state as a construct is left behind as no longer necessary. Countries like Soviet Union weren't communist, but socialist. That's because communism was something they strived toward. Hence Soviet jokes like "Q: We are told that the communism is already seen at the horizon. What then is a horizon? A: Horizon is an imaginary line which moves away each time you approach it." and "Q: When the final phase of socialism, namely communism, is built, will there still be thefts and pilfering? A: No, because everything will be already pilfered during socialism."

The Democratic Party has always been a big tent party with people who identify as fairly far left, moderate and even conservative. You know...kind of like cats which are hard to herd.

DSA is beyond what the Democratic Party should accept in its big tent. GOP should not tolerate fascists, and Dems should not tolerate DSA.

Here are some excerpts from the DSA platform:

• Establish universal rent-control and the guaranteed right to counsel for all tenants. Public investment in building quality multi-income social housing.
• Greatly reduce the U.S. military budget, close overseas bases, and bring troops home.
• End economic sanctions that impact the sovereignty of countries whose governments act independently of the United States, such as Cuba, Venezuela, and Iran.
• Allow workers to freely migrate between countries to seek employment without restrictive immigration controls. Demilitarize the border, end all immigrant detention and deportations, immediate amnesty for all immigrants regardless of current immigration status, and provide access to jobs, labor rights, and social services to all immigrants.
• Extend full voting rights to people with criminal convictions and noncitizens and establish statehood for Washington D.C.
• Limit the Court’s power of judicial review which it uses to effectively create and abolish laws outside the legislative process.

Did you notice it? They want de-facto open borders and also voting rights for non-citizens.

All of the crazy things going on remind me of an old high school cheer we kids used to shout at football games. "Swing to the left...Swing to the right...Stand up...Sit down...Fight fight fight!". It's past time to swing to the left again.

The Democratic Party has swung left since the last years of the Obama presidency, and that accelerated when Trump got elected. It has become so bad that Kamala Harris, one of the most left-wing senators, was considered too centrist in 2024.
And you want it to swing even more?

 

[Derec]

I was beguiled by the thread title because I thought the thread was going to be about leftists doing cocaine. So, a bit disappointed.

I thought it was going to be about the fuel.
And it reminded me of this song, which uses a wordplay between the two meanings of the word. Yes, the double meaning works in German too.