Here Comes The Left

[Derec]

Yes, the benefit she gains by submitting: safety from more damage—to her or another vulnerable person. . Sometimes to keep housing or her job. Those constitute coercion-ie rape.

What would you consider "coercion" here?

The rate of false allegations of rape is also quite low. Most organizations that collect the statistics estimate 3-5%.

I do not think it's nearly that low, especially since the organizations that claim such low rates tend to be rape advocacy organizations with an agenda. But even if it was that low, 1 in 20 or 30 is no reason not to require proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

I do believe that there are plenty of instances where the aggressor does not consider it rape but the victim does—and so does the law.

And there are also instances where the accuser considers it rape but the accused does not - and neither does the law. Or where she knows that there wasn't a rape but she makes up the story anyway.

Some of it is genuine misunderstanding. I get that a young inexperienced person may not pick up on signals that the other person is not enthusiastic about sexual contact.

Not being "enthusiastic" in itself does not mean there is no consent. If she agrees to sex, then it's not rape even if she regrets it later or did not agree to it enthusiastically. And nobody should be required to pick up on subtle signals or else go to jail.

The same grace needs to be granted to the victim, usually similarly young and inexperienced and may find herself ( usually herself) in a situation she did not anticipate. For young people especially it is not unusual to find oneself out of your depth in any number of scenarios unrelated to sex and related to sex. Learning curve can be very steep.

But that "grace" should not mean that if she agrees to sex he should be prosecuted because she maybe didn't really want to agree to sex but did not communicate that in any way.

No one is suggesting that anyone be convicted without due process.

How about expelled from university without due process?

 

[Toni]

Yes, the benefit she gains by submitting: safety from more damage—to her or another vulnerable person. . Sometimes to keep housing or her job. Those constitute coercion-ie rape.

What would you consider "coercion" here?

The rate of false allegations of rape is also quite low. Most organizations that collect the statistics estimate 3-5%.

I do not think it's nearly that low, especially since the organizations that claim such low rates tend to be rape advocacy organizations with an agenda. But even if it was that low, 1 in 20 or 30 is no reason not to require proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

I do believe that there are plenty of instances where the aggressor does not consider it rape but the victim does—and so does the law.

And there are also instances where the accuser considers it rape but the accused does not - and neither does the law. Or where she knows that there wasn't a rape but she makes up the story anyway.

Some of it is genuine misunderstanding. I get that a young inexperienced person may not pick up on signals that the other person is not enthusiastic about sexual contact.

Not being "enthusiastic" in itself does not mean there is no consent. If she agrees to sex, then it's not rape even if she regrets it later or did not agree to it enthusiastically. And nobody should be required to pick up on subtle signals or else go to jail.

The same grace needs to be granted to the victim, usually similarly young and inexperienced and may find herself ( usually herself) in a situation she did not anticipate. For young people especially it is not unusual to find oneself out of your depth in any number of scenarios unrelated to sex and related to sex. Learning curve can be very steep.

But that "grace" should not mean that if she agrees to sex he should be prosecuted because she maybe didn't really want to agree to sex but did not communicate that in any way.

No one is suggesting that anyone be convicted without due process.

How about expelled from university without due process?

No one has suggested that anyone be convicted of anything without proof beyond a reasonable doubt, all legal rights observed, legal counsel provided, etc.

I think that (some) men have a pretty vested interest in believing that women lie about rape. Otherwise, they might have to think poorly of some of their buddies or even of themselves.

Thinking of young adults abd teens, I think that there definitely can be some room for differing perceptions. Certainly judgement can be clouded by growing sexual urgency coupled with lack of general life and sex experience.. it would be lovely to think that couples are deeply in puppy love and heavily invested in their partners well being but honestly, young, inexperienced, flooded with hormones: people do not perceive situations the save way.

Which underscores the need for enthusiastic consent. A more passive person might withdraw emotionally if they are overwhelmed and reluctant it avoids t and a more dominant person could see acquiescence as consent instead of fear and not knowing what to do to get out if a situation. We’re talking heat if the mom t decisions being made without much actual thought process.

But certainly there are those, mostly males, who feel entitled. They are under the impression that masculine means in charge Abd taking what they want, abd ridiculing any who disagree. Abd some are mean fucks who have a violent streak. Throw in easy access to a lot of porn Abd sexually violent t video games.

Of course the same scenarios existed 50 years ago and more minis such easy access to porn and violent video games.

Plus the whole: a good girl dresses modestly, smiles but not too much, wants to please, but not too eagerly, doesn’t really want it like sex ( so no need to try to please her) so you gave makes programmed by society to act more aggressively than many might Abd girls being more passive and the norm is that all blame us in the girl/woman who should have known better and probably wanted it.

It can be a hard conceit to accept that the object of your attentions may have a different level of arousal or willingness than you do.

Of course almost all of us survive our teens/20’s mostly unscathed but some version of these attitudes persist well past middle age.

 

[Bronzeage]

You're both going too far, just in opposite directions.

In developed countries it comes down to whether there are signs of life. But that is something that we can at best imperfectly measure. There is no magical instant of death to record whether it happened inside or outside. But in some places they do not count it as a live birth if survival is unquestionably impossible. And I suspect the punishment crowd drives up the rate. I'm thinking of a local case, way too premature to have a chance. The doctor did the humane thing and put it in a room and closed the door. A nurse went ape over that. You have to try to save it! The way the country is going the doctors are going to try on cases that would properly be classified as stillbirths.

I think that was an episode of Call the Midwife.

Infant mortality is directly related to prenatal care, or rather the lack of it. This is something socialist countries sort of take for granted. They look at the US and see people and politicians who claim life is sacred, but don't seem to want to do the simple things that preserve it.

A lack of prenatal care is unlikely to cause a prompt fatality, and thus has little effect on stillbirth vs infant mortality.

As with basically every such issue the people who stand to benefit from the issue will make it appear bigger than it is. And the people harmed by it will make it appear smaller than it is.

I'm not sure who benefits from greater infant mortality, however the count is made, but things like high blood pressure and impaired kidney function have a direct effect on the viability of a new born. After been responsible for two pregnancies in which these were severe complications, I can say prenatal care is critical care made the difference. Both these problems have barely discernable symptoms until it's too late.

Those who are solving or purporting to solve a problem benefit from the existence of the problem.

The Republicans have basically raised this to an art form but it is by no means exclusive to them. Real world, the fundamental job of any organization is to protect it's existence.

By this measure, Fire fighters benefit from arson. I'll take you concede value of prenatal care for reducing infant mortality.