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Hillary Clinton: You 'cannot be civil' with Republicans, Democrats need to be 'tougher'

What the left needs to do is abandon the corporate controlled Democratic party and form a left wing party.

A party with the rights of working people as the central focus.

A party that wants to control corporate power, not dance to it's tune.

The Democratic Party now represents corporate interests.

It does not represent working people.

Corporations have two parties.

Working people none.


Until the Republican party is dead and gone, and a more progressive party arises then to counter the Democrats, then voting anything other than Democrat at the state and national level only serves to keep the GOP in power.

Look no further than the fucking Stein and Nader voters. They were so pure, so proud to vote their uncompromising beliefs that it put Bush/Cheney in the WH, and then Trump. Look at what that brought us: war, debt, crumbling infrastructure, an insane tax structure and federal courts stacked with conservative judges--including SCOTUS.

High ideals are a luxury the U.S. simply cannot afford right now.

And one can argue all they want about how the system sucks--and it does to the extent that it's been relatively easy for conservatives to manipulate the fuck out of, but it's the system we have. That means we have to use it to its greatest effect; right now and for the foreseeable future, that means voting for Democrats.

Vote for 3rd parties all you want in local elections--if they're even on the goddamn ballot. No Greens or Libertarians on my ballot for local office in 2016 (in a SoCal district of all places!), but there up at the top along with Scandolf the Orange and HRC were Stein and Johnson. Filthy, fucking maggoty splitters.
 
Tom Sawyer said:
Ya, but the good news is that I don't care about you Americans at all, so it's not my problem.

And yet you just won't go away.
 
The Democratic Party now represents corporate interests.

It does not represent working people.

Corporations have two parties.

Working people none.

Ya, but the good news is that I don't care about you Americans at all, so it's not my problem.

Bwaa ha aha haaa! I'll bet your damn polar bears care!
 
What the left needs to do is abandon the corporate controlled Democratic party and form a left wing party.

Because that worked out so well for Nader and Stein (and significantly helped to put Trump in the WH). Good to see the objective lessons of 2016 and prior have been completely missed yet again

A party with the rights of working people as the central focus.

Which is precisely the Democratic party.

A party that wants to control corporate power, not dance to it's tune.

And, once again, you're talking about the Democratic party, in particular Hillary Clinton whose policies (had they ever been implemented) would have, for example, seriously mitigated the 2008 housing collapse if not avoided it all together and were parroted by Bernie Sanders while pretending that using Dodd-Frank to break up the commercial banks, "shadow" banks and insurance companies was his own idea. It never was.

Intelligent regulation is always going to be required and Democrats are the ones who have consistently been applying that rule whenever they are able. Note what that entails.

Any idiot can promise magical ponies as Sanders has been doing for forty years. And not once has he ever delivered any such ponies. And don't forget it was Sanders that sucker-fished the Democrats moving farther and farther right and continues to do so instead of going for a third party like his sycophants wanted him to do all along.

Why do you think that is? It sure as shit wasn't money. He raised more (and spent more) than did Clinton.
 
What the left needs to do is abandon the corporate controlled Democratic party and form a left wing party.

A party with the rights of working people as the central focus.

A party that wants to control corporate power, not dance to it's tune.
That would be too sane.
 
Because that worked out so well for Nader and Stein (and significantly helped to put Trump in the WH). Good to see the objective lessons of 2016 and prior have been completely missed yet again

I am saying what should be done. Not what is easy and what is definitely going to be successful.

But the needs of working people are not being met by either party.

The price of education is skyrocketing.

That is a huge tax.

Which is precisely the Democratic party.

Not post Bill Clinton.

The Democratic Party is now a corporate party.

Bought and paid for by big business.

That's why we get Obamacare, not Universal Health Insurance

And, once again, you're talking about the Democratic party, in particular Hillary Clinton whose policies (had they ever been implemented) would have, for example, seriously mitigated the 2008 housing collapse if not avoided it all together and were parroted by Bernie Sanders while pretending that using Dodd-Frank to break up the commercial banks, "shadow" banks and insurance companies was his own idea. It never was.

Hillary is waist deep in corporate money.

Her husband helped cause the bank collapses.

When she had the responsibility to create a health care system she created a monstrosity protecting corporate profits, not universal health insurance.

Any idiot can promise magical ponies as Sanders has been doing for forty years.

Yes, it is magic ponies to have a universal health care system.

It is magic ponies to strengthen Social Security as opposed to weaken it.

It is magic ponies to expect those raping the working man, making his and her life harder and harder, driving people further into debt, to stop it.
 
What the left needs to do is abandon the corporate controlled Democratic party and form a left wing party.

A party with the rights of working people as the central focus.

A party that wants to control corporate power, not dance to it's tune.

Yes, because nothing will stop the right wing better than diluting the left wing vote amongst multiple candidates.

The right wing in Canada had that idea and it led to more than a decade of vote splitting getting the left wing party consistently elected before they finally realized how ineffective their strategy was in a first past the post electoral system and they rejoined their parties again and gained control of the government.

The Democratic Party now represents corporate interests.

It does not represent working people.

Corporations have two parties.

Working people none.
Sadly...you are talking on deaf ears here.
 
WASHINGTON – Hillary Clinton says the time for civility is over.

After the bitter and partisan fight over the confirmation of Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh, the former secretary of State and 2016 Democratic presidential candidate declared that President Donald Trump has undermined the integrity of the nation's highest court and that it's time for Democrats to be "tougher" with their opponents, in an interview with CNN published Tuesday

"You cannot be civil with a political party that wants to destroy what you stand for, what you care about," Clinton told CNN's Christiane Amanpour. "That's why I believe, if we are fortunate enough to win back the House and or the Senate, that's when civility can start again."
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news.../09/hillary-clinton-cnn-interview/1578636002/

I feel like Hillary Clinton is coming to the party late here. At some point she and other DLC democrats like John Kerry could have really went off on their opponents and the swift boaters etc. But they've always held back in some way. Maybe rarely said something worthwhile and then triangulated out of it.

In any case, I disagree with Hillary Clinton. I think she's half-right. There are about half of Republicans who only want to win, who will be nothing but insulting and political to do so. Those are the ones who require you to get back in their face and say something sarcastic or snarky. The other half, though, is honest and has values that can be argued about. They deserve rational argument and a discussion of your values. Some of these people are in office, too.

So I think this applies to both politicians and normal people.

What are your thoughts on what she is saying?

So what you are telling us Hillary is that if you and the Democrats dont get everything exactly your way, you are going to cry and wail just like infant immature crybabies? Sorry, not worth it. Im voting straight Republican this time for the first time my life.
 
What the left needs to do is abandon the corporate controlled Democratic party and form a left wing party.

A party with the rights of working people as the central focus.

A party that wants to control corporate power, not dance to it's tune.

The Democratic Party now represents corporate interests.

It does not represent working people.

Corporations have two parties.

Working people none.


Until the Republican party is dead and gone, and a more progressive party arises then to counter the Democrats, then voting anything other than Democrat at the state and national level only serves to keep the GOP in power.

Look no further than the fucking Stein and Nader voters. They were so pure, so proud to vote their uncompromising beliefs that it put Bush/Cheney in the WH, and then Trump. Look at what that brought us: war, debt, crumbling infrastructure, an insane tax structure and federal courts stacked with conservative judges--including SCOTUS.

High ideals are a luxury the U.S. simply cannot afford right now.

And one can argue all they want about how the system sucks--and it does to the extent that it's been relatively easy for conservatives to manipulate the fuck out of, but it's the system we have. That means we have to use it to its greatest effect; right now and for the foreseeable future, that means voting for Democrats.

Vote for 3rd parties all you want in local elections--if they're even on the goddamn ballot. No Greens or Libertarians on my ballot for local office in 2016 (in a SoCal district of all places!), but there up at the top along with Scandolf the Orange and HRC were Stein and Johnson. Filthy, fucking maggoty splitters.

A little harsh buddy! But I agree, the dems have to turn the tide a little. The republicans have too much power. If the minority party continues to have absolute power our democracy won't survive long term.
 
WASHINGTON – Hillary Clinton says the time for civility is over.

After the bitter and partisan fight over the confirmation of Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh, the former secretary of State and 2016 Democratic presidential candidate declared that President Donald Trump has undermined the integrity of the nation's highest court and that it's time for Democrats to be "tougher" with their opponents, in an interview with CNN published Tuesday

"You cannot be civil with a political party that wants to destroy what you stand for, what you care about," Clinton told CNN's Christiane Amanpour. "That's why I believe, if we are fortunate enough to win back the House and or the Senate, that's when civility can start again."
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news.../09/hillary-clinton-cnn-interview/1578636002/

I feel like Hillary Clinton is coming to the party late here. At some point she and other DLC democrats like John Kerry could have really went off on their opponents and the swift boaters etc. But they've always held back in some way. Maybe rarely said something worthwhile and then triangulated out of it.

In any case, I disagree with Hillary Clinton. I think she's half-right. There are about half of Republicans who only want to win, who will be nothing but insulting and political to do so. Those are the ones who require you to get back in their face and say something sarcastic or snarky. The other half, though, is honest and has values that can be argued about. They deserve rational argument and a discussion of your values. Some of these people are in office, too.

So I think this applies to both politicians and normal people.

What are your thoughts on what she is saying?

So what you are telling us Hillary is that if you and the Democrats dont get everything exactly your way, you are going to cry and wail just like infant immature crybabies? Sorry, not worth it. Im voting straight Republican this time for the first time my life.

No. What is meant is that being a gentleman in a world of cheating, lying and rat fucking dirty tricks has not worked and does not work. The only way to beat the rat fuckers is to practice scorched earth politics. Blood and teeth on the floor and take no prisoners. If that is what it takes to beat the dirty tricks of the GOP, so be it. I, until I am dead and buried will never vote for a Republican.

It was the GOP whose leaders met even before Obama was seated as president and vowed to oppose whatever policies he proposed as acts of rank obstructionism. Mitch the bitch and his cheating Merrick Garland out of a chance to sit on the supreme court. Lying us into a war in Iraq. And getting by with it. Gerrymandering, voter suppression, caging and disenfranchisement. Dirty tricks like massive tax cuts for the wealthy and then having the gall to use the resulting massive deficits as an excuse to slash Social Security, Medicaid and Medicare. No more wimps. No more bitching and complaining when the GOP screws us. No more politeness and expecting any other than rat fucking from the GOP. The GOP has turned into an evil political party and it is time to treat them like they are just that.

Because of the GOP's attitude, they get next to no votes from black Americans. And now looks like they have alienated American women with their rat fucking games. See you in 2020.
 
So what you are telling us Hillary is that if you and the Democrats dont get everything exactly your way, you are going to cry and wail just like infant immature crybabies? Sorry, not worth it. Im voting straight Republican this time for the first time my life.

There is not a person on the planet who believes the bullshit you just spewed forth.
 
So what you are telling us Hillary is that if you and the Democrats dont get everything exactly your way, you are going to cry and wail just like infant immature crybabies? Sorry, not worth it. Im voting straight Republican this time for the first time my life.

There is not a person on the planet who believes the bullshit you just spewed forth.

You'd be surprised
 
WASHINGTON – Hillary Clinton says the time for civility is over.

After the bitter and partisan fight over the confirmation of Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh, the former secretary of State and 2016 Democratic presidential candidate declared that President Donald Trump has undermined the integrity of the nation's highest court and that it's time for Democrats to be "tougher" with their opponents, in an interview with CNN published Tuesday

"You cannot be civil with a political party that wants to destroy what you stand for, what you care about," Clinton told CNN's Christiane Amanpour. "That's why I believe, if we are fortunate enough to win back the House and or the Senate, that's when civility can start again."
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news.../09/hillary-clinton-cnn-interview/1578636002/

I feel like Hillary Clinton is coming to the party late here. At some point she and other DLC democrats like John Kerry could have really went off on their opponents and the swift boaters etc. But they've always held back in some way. Maybe rarely said something worthwhile and then triangulated out of it.

In any case, I disagree with Hillary Clinton. I think she's half-right. There are about half of Republicans who only want to win, who will be nothing but insulting and political to do so. Those are the ones who require you to get back in their face and say something sarcastic or snarky. The other half, though, is honest and has values that can be argued about. They deserve rational argument and a discussion of your values. Some of these people are in office, too.

So I think this applies to both politicians and normal people.

What are your thoughts on what she is saying?
I think your ratios are off. More like 80-90% of the GOP are 'hardcore' supporters who don't give a shit about anything other than 'owning libs'.

Which would make Hillary much more right, IMO.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't think the state will long survive the abandonment of civil discourse. That doesn't mean this viewpoint is unreasonable, but it must be understood that if everyone holds it, there is no country to be fighting over, or won't be shortly.

While that's certainly true, the Dems can't just sit around waiting for the Republicans to decide to stop flinging feces at them and sit down to have rationale discourse. If you keep bringing flowers to a knife fight, you're just going to end up bleeding on the ground while the other guy pisses on your flowers. At some point, you need to pull out your own fucking knife.

Or sword. Or gun. When civil discourse is refused, civil war is inevitable. Which is to say, there most certainly will be a country worth fighting for. But, well, it will be fought over with actual literal fighting. It just sucks having to actually live through such an era where that happens. And what does it look like when a first world country has a civil war in the age of modern warfare?
Agreed. It might not last long when it's abandoned, but I suspect it will last longer, or have a chance of recovering, than when only one side has abandoned it.
 
No. What is meant is that being a gentleman in a world of cheating, lying and rat fucking dirty tricks has not worked and does not work.

Because of the GOP's attitude, they get next to no votes from black Americans. And now looks like they have alienated American women with their rat fucking games. See you in 2020.

The statement at the start of this post and the statement at the end of this post appear to conflict.

Obama didn't get down in the gutter with the Republicans. He won re-election. Hillary called Republican voters "deplorables". She didn't win the presidency.

Highlighting the bad behaviour of the other party, when it is truly bad and when balanced with a positive message and vision of working together, is a good political move, but only if you have clean hands yourself. The idea is to make yourself out as the adult in the room.

Attacking the voters of the other party is never advisable. You wont jusr alienate whatever segmenr of them you are actually targetting. Many many others will misinterpret you and be alienated by you, and even those that don't may see you as behaving as badly as the other side, losing one of your best political advantages.

Remember, you are aiming to get more people out to support you. That is the goal of elections, not tit for tat bad behaviour.

Instead of calling people who vote against you "deplorables" and instead of blaming a loss on people who weren't inspired by you to come out and vote for you, take responsibility, show leadership, maturity, and vision.

You won't win a mud fight with a pig.
 
I am saying what should be done.

In your opinion.

Not what is easy and what is definitely going to be successful.

And that's helpful how? The Presidency is a job interview, after all, not replacing the Pope.

But the needs of working people are not being met by either party.

Clearly not true as everything the Obama administration did has turned the economy around and got it up off the ashes of 2008 in a manner that can only be described as remarkable. But because we live in a real world--with real Republicans constantly fucking it up--not everything is all tidied up in a neat little magical pony bow.

That reality doesn't mean you dump your party. Sanders isn't even a Democrat and he hasn't dumped the party he sucker-fishes onto.

The price of education is skyrocketing.

Private education, but Congress can't do shit about that. Public education tuitions have gone up as well, but that's a matter for the States, which, once again, Congress can't do shit about.

The only thing Congress could do is authorize Federal funding to help those in need pay for their public college. Well, hey, guess what!? We ALREADY do that and guess what happens as a result (emphasis mine):

At private nonprofit colleges, the spending categories described above — student services and faculty and administrative salaries — together explain most of the tuition increase over the past two decades. Among for-profit institutions, it is much more difficult to pin down a reason for tuition increases, though recent research suggests that one big cause is the generosity of federal student aid: Some institutions may be raising tuition in order to capture as much government-backed money as possible.

The overarching message is that there is no single cause of the tuition boom. The reason for rising costs differs based on the type of institution and the state it’s in, and even varies over time. But, at least among public institutions, the dominant factor has been a steady decrease in support for higher education on the part of state legislatures.

By why let pesky facts bother you?

Which is precisely the Democratic party.

Not post Bill Clinton.

Most definitely post Clinton.

The Democratic Party is now a corporate party.

Meaningless bumper sticker. The Democratic party supports the working class, which, once again is comprised of almost 80%-90% Corporate and Corporate-related jobs, so if you are pro-working class then you are necessarily pro-Corporations.

The problem--like ALL social problems--are those corporations that try to get away with not paying their fare share and/or are committing various crimes. Just like people do. So government needs to go after those bad corporations, just like it does with bad people.

It's the same fucking thing.

Bought and paid for by big business.

More bumper sticker nonsense. Not only did Obama famously say fuck you to Goldman Sachs (and they, in turn, backed Romney and it made no difference), the fact that businesses pay for access does not automatically mean Congresspeople are corrupt (unless we're talking about Republicans).

Many have been bought and/or certain legislation corrupted, no doubt about it. But that's always going to be true no matter who is in the WH and so long as humans are elected, so until PolticoBot180 is created by Cyberdine Industries corruption in politics--on any side of the aisle--will always exist.

But to assert an entire party is somehow "bought and paid for" is just vapid. Unless, again, we're talking about the Republicans, though they aren't actually a party; they are the sex slaves of the worst of humanity in suits, so it's never really been a question of any Republican not being corrupt. They run in order to fulfill their corruption.

That's why we get Obamacare, not Universal Health Insurance

You're lucky you got Obamacare. Try to stop writing bumper stickers and look at the real world you live in.

And, once again, you're talking about the Democratic party, in particular Hillary Clinton whose policies (had they ever been implemented) would have, for example, seriously mitigated the 2008 housing collapse if not avoided it all together and were parroted by Bernie Sanders while pretending that using Dodd-Frank to break up the commercial banks, "shadow" banks and insurance companies was his own idea. It never was.

Hillary is waist deep in corporate money.

Meaningless drivel. I'll assume you mean she was paid to give speeches. How otherwise intelligent people like you can't comprehend that people are paid for giving a speech is truly beyond me. Someone offers to pay you to speak, does that mean you are "waist deep in corporate money"? What does that even mean? That your vote is somehow bought?

These are vapid Republican talking points you're spewing out your ass that have no substance or logic behind them. And the irony is, she (and her husband) made millions on speeches and books, which means they don't need to sell their vote even if they were ever in a situation where that could have happened (they never were).

Her husband helped cause the bank collapses.

As has been debunked SO MANY FUCKING TIMES no, he did not. By the time Clinton was in office, the legislation you don't even know you're referring to was already gutted. There were many factors that caused 2008, but chief among them was the fact that the credit rating agencies (all three of them, independently of each other no less) fucked up the risk ratings of the mortgages and CDOs. Had they rated them accurately, NONE of what followed as a direct result of their bad ratings would have happened.

But, again, don't let facts stop you slapping on those bumper stickers.

When she had the responsibility to create a health care system she created a monstrosity protecting corporate profits, not universal health insurance.

No, she created, ironically, Obamacare, basically, which was the only way--politically--to get the first step toward UHI implemented.

Any idiot can promise magical ponies as Sanders has been doing for forty years.

Yes, it is magic ponies to have a universal health care system.

It is the way Sanders tried it as was poignantly shown in in his own state.

It is magic ponies to strengthen Social Security as opposed to weaken it.

You mean like Bill Clinton did and President Gore would have continued were it not for the Republicans that raped it? You do know about these things "Republicans" right?

It is magic ponies to expect those raping the working man, making his and her life harder and harder, driving people further into debt, to stop it.

Yeah, it is, because Republicans are fucking terminators and they won't stop it except by intelligent political maneuvering, not magical ponies. The further irony being that Sanders once understood that and so conducted most of his Congressional time selling his vote in order to amend other people's bills to get what he wanted. Pitty the "Amendment King" stepped into the spotlight and lost his crown, because now he's just fucking everything up. Again.
 
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Seems to be a matter of the short term vs the long term and if the Democrat Party get a strong enough message from the left.

The attitude of stand behind the Democrat Party because it is the only viable alternative to the Republican party does make some sense. But when the Democrat Party takes this for granted, they move further and further to the right. You do need some sort of lever of power to pull them back to the left.

As unter wrote, you now have two corporate parties and neither for the workers. That won't change as the party that should be for the workers has no pressure to be so. It needs that pressure. It needs to realize that it could be winning more votes and getting more people out to the polls with a more liberal and worker friendly message. Third party threat is such a force. Either give the people what they want, or lose to Republicans. After the Hillary loss, Bernie and others like him have gained more sway. You lost the election but may be reshaping the Democrats to win the next, and actually win with a liberal mandate, if the Democrats don't just sell out again.

I think it better to withstand 4 years of Trump if it can mean a future Democrat president with actual liberal policies and not another Bill Clinton republican in liberal disguise.
 
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