Hillary Clinton: You 'cannot be civil' with Republicans, Democrats need to be 'tougher'

[Jolly_Penguin]

Im voting straight Republican this time for the first time my life.

Who do you think is buying that bullshit?

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Seems to be...

It must be shill day.

This is a good example of the attitude that will lose the Democrats every election going forward. You deserve Trump.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

This is a good example of the attitude that will lose the Democrats every election going forward. You deserve Trump.

Keep it up. I need the righteously indignant poseur laughs.

 

[Elixir]

The Alt-Right ascended to power by cheating. It worked so well for them that they have been able to convince people who used to be conservatives that cheating is a good thing, because it leads to the institution and enforcement of of "conservative values". So now, cheating is embraced by some 40-45% of the electorate.
It's a dilemma all right - if Dems decide to try to level the playing field by ramping up their own cheating, then this country is doomed, as far as aspiring to representative democracy. But they can't just sit there and be cheated out of election after election, SCOTUS appointment after SCOTUS appointment etc, and expect things to improve.
I don't have a counter-tactic to recommend, but I do think it's time to start calling a spade a spade. The media, AND Dem politicians still don't call a lie a lie, they euphemize: "misleading statement", "factual error" etc.. For some reason they seem afraid to anger the deplorables, even though they're never going to get a single vote from that quarter. Hence they are perceived as sniveling weaklings. I think that telling it like it is when referring to the Republican party is definitely called for. Why are they not pointing out the "angry mob" that follows Cheato around chanting "lock her up!" (doesn't even matter who "she" is, they just like chanting after their orange avatar)? It's frustrating.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

The Alt-Right ascended to power by cheating. It worked so well for them that they have been able to convince people who used to be conservatives that cheating is a good thing, because it leads to the institution and enforcement of of "conservative values". So now, cheating is embraced by some 40-45% of the electorate.
It's a dilemma all right - if Dems decide to try to level the playing field by ramping up their own cheating, then this country is doomed, as far as aspiring to representative democracy. But they can't just sit there and be cheated out of election after election, SCOTUS appointment after SCOTUS appointment etc, and expect things to improve.
I don't have a counter-tactic to recommend, but I do think it's time to start calling a spade a spade. The media, AND Dem politicians still don't call a lie a lie, they euphemize: "misleading statement", "factual error" etc.. For some reason they seem afraid to anger the deplorables, even though they're never going to get a single vote from that quarter. Hence they are perceived as sniveling weaklings. I think that telling it like it is when referring to the Republican party is definitely called for. Why are they not pointing out the "angry mob" that follows Cheato around chanting "lock her up!" (doesn't even matter who "she" is, they just like chanting after their orange avatar)? It's frustrating.

You've got the right answer. The answer is to point out the cheating and bad behaviour of the Republicans, plainly and straightforwardly with no euphemism, without engaging in the Democrat's own, and while always sending out a positive message of how things could be, and making that message inclusive of those who voted Republican. Obama hit most of these, and he won two terms (he should have pointed out more of their bad behaviour; he was fantastic at not engaging in his own). Hillary didn't hit most of these, and she lost. This should register with the Democrat Party more than it is.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

No. What is meant is that being a gentleman in a world of cheating, lying and rat fucking dirty tricks has not worked and does not work.

Because of the GOP's attitude, they get next to no votes from black Americans. And now looks like they have alienated American women with their rat fucking games. See you in 2020.

The statement at the start of this post and the statement at the end of this post appear to conflict.

The women of America are being energized to counter the GOP. But that does not mean they have supported the get tough attitude Clinton is championing now. Yet. Stay tuned as this whole mess develops. Being nice does not work. And we cannot always rely on GOP overreach and self destruction.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Hillary didn't hit most of these, and she lost.

False on both fronts. Which just once again proves you're an excellent reverse barometer.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Hillary didn't hit most of these, and she lost.

False on both fronts. Which just once again proves you're an excellent reverse barometer.

Ok, in your world President Hillary Clinton didn't talk about deplorables, didn't put herself over as entitled, and had a positive "Yes, we Can" message, instead of a "No magical ponies" message. Sadly we don't all live in your world. Sadly we live in a world where the opposite was true and we have President Trump. Can we trade worlds, just for a day?

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Hillary didn't hit most of these, and she lost.

False on both fronts. Which just once again proves you're an excellent reverse barometer.

Ok, in your world President Hillary Clinton didn't talk about deplorables, didn't put herself over as entitled

And in your world as well, but you just choose to ignore it, which is why you have no credibility. Here is what she actually said:

I know there are only 60 days left to make our case — and don’t get complacent, don’t see the latest outrageous, offensive, inappropriate comment and think well he’s done this time. We are living in a volatile political environment. You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump’s supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right?

The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic — you name it. And unfortunately there are people like that. And he has lifted them up. He has given voice to their websites that used to only have 11,000 people — now how 11 million. He tweets and retweets their offensive hateful mean-spirited rhetoric. Now, some of those folks — they are irredeemable, but thankfully they are not America.

But the other basket — and I know this because I see friends from all over America here — I see friends from Florida and Georgia and South Carolina and Texas — as well as, you know, New York and California — but that other basket of people are people who feel that the government has let them down, the economy has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures, and they’re just desperate for change. It doesn’t really even matter where it comes from. They don’t buy everything he says, but he seems to hold out some hope that their lives will be different. They won’t wake up and see their jobs disappear, lose a kid to heroine, feel like they’re in a dead-end. Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well.

So in the exact same speech she clearly and unmistakably delineated everything you just said she needed to do but didn't.

 

[ZiprHead]

Ok, in your world President Hillary Clinton didn't talk about deplorables, didn't put herself over as entitled

And in your world as well, but you just choose to ignore it, which is why you have no credibility. Here is what she actually said:

I know there are only 60 days left to make our case — and don’t get complacent, don’t see the latest outrageous, offensive, inappropriate comment and think well he’s done this time. We are living in a volatile political environment. You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump’s supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right?

The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic — you name it. And unfortunately there are people like that. And he has lifted them up. He has given voice to their websites that used to only have 11,000 people — now how 11 million. He tweets and retweets their offensive hateful mean-spirited rhetoric. Now, some of those folks — they are irredeemable, but thankfully they are not America.

But the other basket — and I know this because I see friends from all over America here — I see friends from Florida and Georgia and South Carolina and Texas — as well as, you know, New York and California — but that other basket of people are people who feel that the government has let them down, the economy has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures, and they’re just desperate for change. It doesn’t really even matter where it comes from. They don’t buy everything he says, but he seems to hold out some hope that their lives will be different. They won’t wake up and see their jobs disappear, lose a kid to heroine, feel like they’re in a dead-end. Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well.

So in the exact same speech she clearly and unmistakably delineated everything you just said she needed to do but didn't.

Jolly Penguin seems to get a lot of his info from right-wing sound bites instead of actually researching before he speaks. I suppose that is the sort of tactic of irresponsible people, those who speak before they think.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Jolly Penguin seems to get a lot of his info from right-wing sound bites instead of actually researching before he speaks. I suppose that is the sort of tactic of irresponsible people, those who speak before they think.

Oh, I'm sure he's well aware of what he's doing, just as we all are aware of what he's doing, but have to play along for some pointless reason.

It's a weird little denial dance they do, thinking no one can see them for what they are. Reminds me of this:

 

[Worldtraveller]

Huh, why is it, do you suppose, that the side that's been winning by cheating, bullying, being obnoxious, and spouting hateful rhetoric keeps telling the other side they need to be nice to win?

I leave this as an exercise for the reader to solve.

 

[ZiprHead]

 

[Jarhyn]

View attachment 18026

If I may ask... so, assuming that we are talking about Nazi germany, let's assume some citizens were aware of the existence of concentration camps and weren't in with the Fascists and had the means to do so, would it be correct and proper to liberate the concentration camps by force? What ethical or social obligation would the German people have had in such a situation? If the people at the concentration camp were children, would this impact the duties the German people had to liberate the people there?

 

[ZiprHead]

We need to be nicer to Republicans. Look how nicely this Republican treats this Nasty Woman opponent.

[YOUTUBE]https://youtu.be/GX2GJvmxoFo[/YOUTUBE]

 

[untermensche]

Nobody ever said that there was no difference between Hillary and Trump.

Leaders on the left like Chomsky encouraged people to vote for Hillary.

Many many people said to hold your nose and vote for Hillary.

I can't think of anybody who said there was no difference.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Huh, why is it, do you suppose, that the side that's been winning by cheating, bullying, being obnoxious, and spouting hateful rhetoric keeps telling the other side they need to be nice to win?

I leave this as an exercise for the reader to solve.

They don't. They do all they can to antagonize you, and when they succeed, we all lose. These two sides are not the same. One has the values of social progress and equality as core values. The other does not. The one that does not wins elections by bullying and othering. The side that does can't win that way and only damages itself. Its why the Republicans are winning so easily.

 

[ZiprHead]

Huh, why is it, do you suppose, that the side that's been winning by cheating, bullying, being obnoxious, and spouting hateful rhetoric keeps telling the other side they need to be nice to win?

I leave this as an exercise for the reader to solve.

They don't. They do all they can to antagonize you, and when they succeed, we all lose. These two sides are not the same. One has the values of social progress and equality as core values. The other does not. The one that does not wins elections by bullying and othering. The side that does can't win that way and only damages itself. Its why the Republicans are winning so easily.

You don't do shit. You're a Canadian.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

What are your thoughts on what she is saying?

On the one hand, I'm fond of saying, "I make change in the coin tendered."

On the other hand, I cotton to what Twain once reputedly said -- "Never argue with an idiot. He'll pull you down to his level and then beat you with experience."

I think Obama's biggest failing as a President was his search for compromise after the Republicans made it clear they would not do so. I think the first two years of his Presidency was the best time to take a hard-line stance.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Huh, why is it, do you suppose, that the side that's been winning by cheating, bullying, being obnoxious, and spouting hateful rhetoric keeps telling the other side they need to be nice to win?

I leave this as an exercise for the reader to solve.

They don't. They do all they can to antagonize you, and when they succeed, we all lose. These two sides are not the same. One has the values of social progress and equality as core values. The other does not. The one that does not wins elections by bullying and othering. The side that does can't win that way and only damages itself. Its why the Republicans are winning so easily.

You don't do shit. You're a Canadian.

You don't think Canadians lose when Republicans in the USA win? You don't think the whole world loses? You think wrong.

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On the other hand, I cotton to what Twain once reputedly said -- "Never argue with an idiot. He'll pull you down to his level and then beat you with experience."

I think Obama's biggest failing as a President was his search for compromise after the Republicans made it clear they would not do so. I think the first two years of his Presidency was the best time to take a hard-line stance.

Absolutely agree, and that's a great quote. I would only add that taking a hard-line does not equate to behaving badly as Republicans have done. You can indeed be perfectly civil while taking a hard-line.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Absolutely agree, and that's a great quote. I would only add that taking a hard-line does not equate to behaving badly as Republicans have done. You can indeed be perfectly civil while taking a hard-line.

No doubt. Pa Thump said more than once that "Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to Hell, and have them looking forward to the trip."

We've disagreed here, you and I, but you've carried yourself decently towards me, and I can respect that much.