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Historical Jesus

The crucifixion is one of the very few facts of Jesus' life that can be inferred with near-certainty. And crucifixion had to be ordered by the Roman governor.
Near certainty.


Suppose Jesus had been a small time leader in some Jewish underground group of the day. Judea was rife with them.

One of the group turned Jesus in for bounty money. His disciples all know about this. Jesus winds up in front of Pontius Pilate, accused of being a messiah. King of the Jews. Anointed by God.

At that point, Jesus had a choice to make. He knew it and so did His followers.

He could keep His mouth shut and almost certainly have a short and ugly life.
OR
He could start telling Pilate about other people. Give Pilate names and descriptions and whereabouts of other, more criminal, miscreants. Maybe Simon Peter, or James, or anyone. He might have gotten a less severe sentence. He could have "Done unto others as Others have done unto Him". He might have walked away free with some bounty money of His own. But He didn't do that.
He chose the first one. He deliberately chose an incredible self sacrifice for His buddys. Torture and crucifixion, but only for Himself.

That made Him a Hero!
When no Roman soldiers came out arresting His friends and compadres, they all knew the sacrifice Jesus had made for them. They started referring to themselves as "Brothers of Christ", Christ meaning Jesus the Messiah. No praise was too high. No legend too flattering.
And the Legend began.

But, what if Jesus didn't actually die on the cross?
Tom
 
Yet another possible scenario. It is endless.

Sounds plausible.
 
Yet another possible scenario. It is endless.

Sounds plausible.

Suppose Jesus didn't die on the cross. Suppose He were sentenced to death by crucifixion, but dodged somehow.

The Romans were brutal, organized, and efficient. They were nevertheless human.

Suppose Jesus' biological father, Pantera, pulled some strings and got his boy off with a lashing?
Suppose Jesus's compadres pulled together enough money to bribe some prison guards into crucifying someone else?
Suppose Jesus would up on the cross. But before He was dead Mary Magdalene took the Roman guard for a romp behind the bushes while Jesus's compatriots got Him down from the cross?

Regardless of how Jesus escaped death on the cross, He would remain a criminal under sentence of death, by Pilate. He would remain wanted for His entire life. Anybody could turn Him in again. He could be summarily executed, along with anyone He happened to be with at the time. He was a dangerous man.

Maybe He figured out a way to stay in Judea incognito. Maybe He left Judea completely. But people saying "I thought Jesus was dead. I saw Jesus weeks later! What gives?" would explain why some folks would invent a Resurrection.

Better than saying "We bribed some Roman guards."
If you valued your life.
Tom
 
Back when I was a devout Christian, I was often in prayer vigils. People gathered around, kneeling or even prostrate on the ground. If what we were praying for was especially worrisome, like the terminal illness of a beloved friend, then the prayers were all the more passionate and heartfelt.

On more than one occasion, someone--call him Bob--would pipe up, "He's here! I can feel the presence of Jesus in this very room!" Bob would certainly sound certain, and would look sincere. He wasn't the type of person to lie or embellish anything. He honestly and truly believed that Jesus was standing in the middle of our group, and he would go to his grave with the firm conviction that Jesus was alive and with us. Certainly none of us could argue with him--we wanted Jesus to be with us there as much as he did, and if Bob believed it then who are we to disagree? (Hmm, I thought to myself, maybe if I was a more devout Christian I could sense the presence of Jesus too. I'll just play along for now so that the others don't question my faith.)

Looking back, it's not difficult to picture the same thing happening in Jerusalem. Jesus dies, and for whatever reason is removed from the cross by Joseph of Arimathea. Joseph quickly puts Jesus' body in a nearby tomb because it's almost sundown before the Sabbath, but before the women arrive on Sunday morning, Joseph moves the body to a nearby a permanent resting place and exits stage right, never to be heard from again.

The women arrive, see an empty tomb, and and conclude that Jesus might be walking around somewhere. The story spreads. Then the disciples have a prayer meeting, wondering what in the world is going on. Suddenly Peter--you just know it has to be Peter--pipes up, "He's here! I can feel the presence of Jesus in this very room!" The other disciples, caught up in grief and wonderment and confusion, decide that if Peter says Jesus is alive, then who are they to argue.

And after forty years of the Telephone Game, we have the Gospel of Mark.

Does my version of events align perfectly with all four Gospels? Of course not--no story possibly could. But it certainly is more plausible than two angels in shining raiment walking around, hordes of dead people rising from their graves and appearing to their families again, Jesus having long conversations with disciples without them knowing who it was, and with him popping in and out of rooms magically, before rising up to the vacuum of space.
 
The crucifixion is one of the very few facts of Jesus' life that can be inferred with near-certainty. And crucifixion had to be ordered by the Roman governor.
Near certainty.


Suppose Jesus had been a small time leader in some Jewish underground group of the day. Judea was rife with them.

One of the group turned Jesus in for bounty money. His disciples all know about this. Jesus winds up in front of Pontius Pilate, accused of being a messiah. King of the Jews. Anointed by God.

At that point, Jesus had a choice to make. He knew it and so did His followers.

He could keep His mouth shut and almost certainly have a short and ugly life.
OR
He could start telling Pilate about other people. Give Pilate names and descriptions and whereabouts of other, more criminal, miscreants. Maybe Simon Peter, or James, or anyone. He might have gotten a less severe sentence. He could have "Done unto others as Others have done unto Him". He might have walked away free with some bounty money of His own. But He didn't do that.
He chose the first one. He deliberately chose an incredible self sacrifice for His buddys. Torture and crucifixion, but only for Himself.

That made Him a Hero!
When no Roman soldiers came out arresting His friends and compadres, they all knew the sacrifice Jesus had made for them. They started referring to themselves as "Brothers of Christ", Christ meaning Jesus the Messiah. No praise was too high. No legend too flattering.
And the Legend began.

But, what if Jesus didn't actually die on the cross?
Tom
We can? He hadn't really broken any laws, other than being a public nuisance in the temple. He wasn't questioning Roman rule. He represented one of the, at that time, many side branches of Judaism. It was undergoing dramatic changes at that point.

Herod Antipas father (plain Herod) was an opportunist with no claim to rule Judea/Palestine. He was a Roman puppet completelydependent on Rome for his rule. Herod married into the Jewish nobility, but spent a lot of time murdering relatives who he felt threatened by. Herod Antipas grew up in this mess.

Emperor Tiberius was a fiscal miser and bleeding Judea dry. As a result Judea was quite unstable, with reoccurring Jewish revolts, getting worse and worse. Herod Antipas waa under pressure to stop these revolts as well as prove to the Romans that he was loyal.

His dad had skillfully maneuvered around the Jewish religion and managed not to offend anyone. The son didn't have the same skill, and managed to keep pissing off the Jews with heavy handed and tone deaf projects. He also struggled with putting down a Jewish revolt at Sepphora, which didn't look good, to either the Jewish people not the Romans.

This was the point Jesus got executed. Most likely Jesus just got caught up in something which he had little to do with him. One of the many Jewish "trouble makers" Herod Antipas has killed to show he was serious. He might have not even known why Jesus had been fingered.

The Biblical narrative is clearly written long after the events because it skips around in the narrative, can't separate the two Herods, and has the Pharisees in power. At the time of the death of Jesus the Pharisees had very little political influence in Judea, and certainly not in a position to have anyone executed. That came later, after the fall of Masada 70AD.
 
We can? He hadn't really broken any laws, other than being a public nuisance in the temple. He wasn't questioning Roman rule. He represented one of the, at that time, many side branches of Judaism. It was undergoing dramatic changes at that point.
There's no way to know that.
Had Jesus been part of one of the more violent groups it would explain the crucifixion sentence. And likely get left out of the Legend as it was being "refined" for a Greco-Roman audience.

There's tons of stuff that got left out of His biography.
Tom
 
30 AD: What was happening?
And who cared about any of it?

Pliny the Elder 23/24 CE - 79 CE was a military commander and researcher of just about everything who wrote a lot. But of his works, only his "Natural History" survives, and he makes absolutely zero mention of any of the miracles of Jesus . . .
There's no reason to expect this Roman author to have written anything about Jesus or other Jews of his time, or to have even known about them. He mentions a little of the geography there, but mentions no Jews by name.

The only possible connection of Pliny to Jews or Judea-Galilee would be that he spoke of the Essenes and their location near the Dead Sea. But this cannot be about Essenes during the time of Jesus, because Pliny's account of the Essenes is based totally on the much earlier history of the Essenes, back in the 1st and 2nd centuries BC. It was typical to restrict one's writings to much earlier subject matter, like 100 years earlier, and not about matters contemporary to the writer. (An exception like Julius Caesar's Gallic Wars etc. is the rare exception that makes the rule.)

Pliny's only source for the Essenes is Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa, a Roman general back around 30 BC, and relates only to that time and earlier rather than anything during the time of Jesus or the term of Pontius Pilate. Except for his mention of the Essenes, he has nothing to say about any Jews or Jewish factions or Judeans or Galileans or the Roman/Jewish conflicts.


Did Roman writers care about Jewish dissidents? uprisings?

It's only in our modern Jewish/Christian culture that the Jewish-Roman wars of this period are thought to be a major event in this historical period, about 100 BC to 100 AD. Romans did not consider it important, except specifically in about 70 AD when it hit a climax, and even most Jews did not share the apocalyptic vision of the militant anti-Romans. They did not join forces against the Romans or support the militants going out to battle. Most were neutral and wanted the wars to stop and blamed both sides.

The crucifixion of Jesus sometime in 30-33 AD was not a widely-known event in the 1st century that would come to the attention of Roman writers, who were disinterested in Jewish politics and petty liberation crusaders. There's virtually no mention of Jewish leaders, including King Herod (37-4 BC), by a non-Jewish writer. Latin writers had no interest in Jewish leaders or in any possible rumors there may have been about another dissident Jew who got crucified as some kind of martyr.

Probably the 2nd most important Jewish ruler after King Herod would be Herod Agrippa ("king" unofficially) reigning from 37-44 AD, who was acquainted with Emperor Claudius. It appears there are NO Roman sources for this major Jewish figure until Cassius Dio (165 – 235 AD), illustrating that Roman writers had little or no interest in Jewish historical figures, neither the mainline leaders or the dissident rebels.

Here is a page giving Roman sources about Jews and Judaism

This appears intended as a comprehensive listing (though maybe only 99.9% exhaustive). In any case, this makes it very clear that Roman writers before about 200 AD had virtually nothing to say about any Jewish historical figures, no matter how important they were. From this it appears there is ONE ONLY mention of King Herod from all the Roman writers, anytime before 200 AD.

Virtually the only Jew given serious mention is Moses. And there's slight mention of 3 or 4 others from the time of Pompey imposing Roman rule in 63 BC.

Emperor Caesar Augustus in a decree mentions the High Priest Hyrcanus.

Geographer Strabo mentions first Moses, then skips to the Hasmonean Dynasty (167-63 BC) and names King Alexander Jannaeus and his sons Hyrcanus and Aristobulus who contended for the throne. He then mentions Herod the Great by name, and then refers to Herod's son Archelaus (not naming him). So this is our only Roman having anything to say about anyone Jewish, giving very brief mention to 4 or 5 Jews by name, and saying a little extra about Moses.

Historian Tacitus is also listed in the above, but no Jewish names are found other than Moses. End of list -- that's the entire listing here of Jews mentioned by any Roman writers. But, we could add one more -- i.e., the famous quote of Tacitus about the Christians killed in the persecution by Nero in 64 AD, in which Christ ("Chrestus") is mentioned as a troublemaker condemned to death by Pontius Pilate. Maybe this Tacitus reference was excluded above because some historians dispute this Tacitus quote.

So this is a virtual exhaustive listing of all Jews named by Roman writers before about 200 AD -- maybe half a dozen Jews named altogether, examples of Roman writers who name any noteworthy Jews. Then around 200 AD there finally appear some mentions by historian Cassius Dio.

So if you exclude Jewish and Christian sources, we have almost no evidence that any ancient Jews existed, including King Herod.

So considering the virtual absence of any mention of Jews by Romans, why should the 1st-century writer Pliny the Elder mention Jesus? If he thought King Herod and all other famous Jews were not worthy of any mention in his writings, why should he suddenly make something important out of Jesus? He probably heard nothing of Jesus, or if he did, it was only something about another Jewish dissident who got crucified, of whom there were hundreds (thousands?), nothing noteworthy.

. . . zero mention of any of the miracles of Jesus Christ's crucifixion, like the sky becoming dark.
No Roman would ever write anything about the weather conditions during the crucifixion of an obscure Jewish dissident.

Luke adds that it was an eclipse of the sun (probably an embellishment by Luke). What difference does it make if the sky really became dark? Matthew and Luke simply accepted this from their Mark source. How dark is "dark"? Maybe it was cloudy. Or Mark added this for aesthetic reasons. Though most Christians today still want to pretend "the Bible" is infallible, in every detail, still they really know some details like this were added for aesthetic reasons.

His nephew Pliny the Younger 61 CE - ~113 CE ran into some early Christians and he asked what to do about these deniers of the official gods of the Roman Empire.

Lucian of Samosata ~125 CE - >180 CE was another writer. He wrote "The Passing of Peregrinus" in which he slammed early Christians as almost hopelessly gullible.
Notice how it's virtually impossible to find any Roman writer saying anything about the earlier Jews or Christians -- not just about Jesus, but about any Jew including those far more recognized than Jesus.

This 2nd-century Samosata, relating events 150 years later than Jesus, is not a legitimate source for the historical Jesus, other than as further attestation that Jesus did exist historically and was crucified, though we have sufficient 1st-century evidence for that. If he offered information debunking those 2nd-century Christians in some way, we should take it seriously since it's from his own time. Also he can be taken as a reliable source on false prophets like Peregrinus and others of the 2nd century, for whom Lucian might know some facts and be a primary source. But that he only poked fun at Christians of his time doesn't tell us anything about the miracles/Resurrection of Jesus 150 years earlier.

There's no reason to expect Roman writers to say something about an obscure Jewish dissident who got crucified (i.e., obscure in the 1st century).

He also wrote on a self-styled prophet, Alexander of Abonutichus, and describes him as a fraud. AoA would demand the expulsion of both Epicureans and Xians from his gatherings, because the Epicureans were skeptical about self-styled prophets, and because the early Xians denied all gods but theirs.
This tells us that there were writers then who debunked charlatans, and so alleged miracle-workers were not automatically believed but were scoffed at. So we can reasonably assume that if Jesus were such a charlatan, we'd likely have something near his time debunking the claims about his Resurrection etc.

That we have 4 (5) 1st-century sources attesting to the Jesus Resurrection/miracles and nothing debunking these is good evidence (not proof) that these miracle events did happen, or at least most of them happened, as the only explanation why we have this one conspicuous case of a miracle-worker for whom there is a written record near to his time, and no other such reported case.

E.g., for the two charlatans exposed by Lucian, Peregrinus and Alexander, there is no written record from anyone attesting to their miracle acts. Why? because no one took them seriously, in contrast to Jesus in about 30 AD. So all the evidence about these two, or all the facts from the writings, tells us that they were charlatans and did not really perform any miracle acts. Had they really done so, some writer would have seen the importance of it and would have recorded it for posterity, as the case of Jesus is reported in writings of the time.

Returning to the Gospels, gMatthew describes Jesus Christ as triumphantly entering Jerusalem as if he was some big celebrity. But Josephus doesn't mention that triumphant entry.
Something is wrong about the Triumphal Entry story, so it's difficult to interpret the point of it. Who wanted to include a story depicting Jesus arranging in advance to have a donkey prepared for him? i.e., to set the stage in advance for his Entry, to make sure the props are ready? Who were the ones at the donkey's location who knew of Jesus getting ready for this public performance and keeping the donkey there prepared for him for this scheduled event?

Whoever it was that wanted to include this story of Jesus making these advance preparations for the Great Triumphal Entry moment, these producers of a theatrical performance and their arrangement of the props, etc. -- these must have been some kind of apocalyptic Jewish crusaders acting according to their messianic vision which somehow made sense to them, but this could not have represented a typical Jewish vision of what the "Messiah" was to be.

So, there were many different messianic visions motivating different Jews -- this messianism was not a monolithic belief system that everyone subscribed to. Rather, any small faction could get its particular revelation into the story, putting its version of "Messiah" out there as THE Messiah for all, and maybe everyone would buy it, sort of, in the sense that no one ever said "No, that's not my belief," or "that's not the Messiah I'm talking about," etc. Rather, all the messianists were receptive to what anyone claimed about "Messiah" no matter how off-beat or nutty it may have been.


What is the Jewish MESSIAH idea?
Who originated it, or promoted it? and for whose consumption?

In general it was some kind of "King" hero-conqueror figure, but onto this very general outline one could place whatever made them feel good, for public consumption, even something nutty, and the general impulse was to accept it, rally around it if possible without asking critical questions -- asking questions and verifying anything was not the point. If the promoter with some vision is really a nutcase, you might sort of turn away to look elsewhere for your "messianic" material, but it was only impulses and feelings which drove anyone this way or that to find their "Messiah" to satisfy their craving. Like the motivation of a drug addict who will "try out" this or that in search of "the Real Thing" -- whatever seems to "fit" somehow -- it's difficult to calculate how someone decides what "makes sense" and what does not.

So whatever it was, this Messiah picture got put into the story, and someone bought it somehow, enough so that we now have this scenario recorded of the arriving "King of
the Jews" dispatching his agents somewhere to find a donkey he needs to be able to "ride into Jerusalem" like the ancient prophet prescribed -- somehow this narrative emerges, however nutty, and no one questions it. It gets put into the story through some strange process. Someone thought it made sense, and it's as though that one's will prevailed, as everyone else just yielded to it -- were they given some Donkey Stunt Kool-Aide to bring them on board with the idea? who knows? Even today it seems most Christians just accept this picture, even though it's comical and ludicrous.


Who created this "Messiah" product and marketed it?
Who was the customer?


So there was no "Council of Nicaea" session to debate what content would go into the "Messiah" story, but rather the "King of the Jews" idea just emerged from some different elements that came together with no one inspecting each element to see if it passed a test to make any sense, but just various impulses pushing this way or that so that after some end point we have a final "Messiah" picture popping out, an offspring somehow able to be seen as one entity but taking many different forms, getting passed along attached to its terminology and symbols in some way that pleases enough crusaders wanting this thing -- there's a general widespread seeking for it even though no one is quite sure what this thing is that they want.

How could normal messianic Jews believe this is the way the Messiah is going to present himself, needing to arrange for props and setting the stage in advance, having agents waiting somewhere to provide the donkey prop when it's needed for the show? It had to be abnormal -- not what most Jews understood, but somehow "making sense" to someone.

One explanation is that some charlatan messiah-pretender actually did do a stunt like this, requisitioning a donkey he knew of and planning to do this Entry into Jerusalem for an audience -- perhaps the audience, the crowd itself, was a paid group of actors, and this pretender planned to actually seize power at the Temple. And this fiasco then got attached to Jesus, causing someone to think it was Jesus who had organized the stunt and was the one riding that donkey.

Whatever the explanation, there's plenty of reason to question this reported event, or at least hope it was NOT what Jesus intended or envisioned -- to become the great King over all and making everyone his slaves -- and yet something must have happened for this triumphalist conquering picture of Jesus to get included in all 4 Gospel accounts. There was clearly the messianic vision among some Jews, anticipating a conquering warrior-hero to charge into the world, unleash the "Sons of Light" to massacre the "Sons of Darkness" and establish a grand Kingdom which would subject all non-Jews, Gentiles etc., to Yahweh and/or his King and make everyone his "footstool" -- this vision is not something Christ-believers or anyone should want.


The new IMPROVED Messiah, improved Formula

Of course the Jewish-Christian theology understanding is that this is to be a different kind of Kingdom, not that of an Alexander the Great etc., but of an enlightened dictator, "anointed" like a King but not to subject everyone to a ruthless rule as all the known kingdoms historically have been which were established by inferior humans seeking to impose their power over all others for their selfish personal benefit/aggrandizement.

But there's no reason to believe that any Jewish Kingdom, if it had been successful in taking power and extending its rule as envisioned, would have turned out any better than all the others. Of course some "Kingdoms" or "Empires" might have been less brutal than others and might have performed some good along with the evil, but there's no reason to think any of these Kingdom or Messiah Visions is what humankind needs and is something to hope for as being Christ's plan with his "Kingdom of God" or "Eternal Life" promise.


Was Jesus really a "Kingdom of God" salesman?

Hopefully Jesus the miracle-worker did not really use the "Kingdom of God" language and these were words put into his mouth by later messianic apocalypticists using him as a tool to promote their vision of conquest over Gentiles (or Canaanites, or pagans, etc. even over Jews that observe the wrong calendar, etc.). You have to remember that it's not only Romans who are the enemy, but whoever Yahweh is angry at, for this or that reason.

In the Paul Epistles the "Kingdom of God" language is mostly avoided and instead it's "Eternal Life" which is offered to us. Since Paul is earlier and had direct contact with the original disciples, this might mean that the "Kingdom of God" rhetoric was not so important originally, maybe not used by Jesus, and that even Mark picked this up from the apocalyptic preachers rather than from a reliable source back to Jesus.

No doubt the militant apocalypticists very early seized upon the good news of Jesus the miracle-worker as something to fit into their conquering Messianic vision -- some of them having Jesus to be the "Son of Man" and others having Jesus announcing this coming conqueror and the grand end-of-the-world conflagration, plus a spectacular Judgment Day when most humans, 99.9% of them, are cast into the Lake of Fire, prepared for the Devil and all the hypocrites (who falsely claimed to be the good guys), while only the .1% elect Real McCoy faithful are granted eternal bliss (or the .1% elect are given rulership over the 99.9% enslaved etc.). Obviously the many different "Kingdom" visions contradict each other about the details, as each militant apocalyptic fanatic has his own particular version of who gets into the Kingdom vs. who is excluded or damned or made to suffer, and how they suffer, for having provoked Yahweh's wrath.


The Donkey -- a symbol of humility?

It's not clear that the Triumphal Entry scenario is intended to emphasize the low humble nature of the "King" riding on the donkey. This scene was not necessarily seen by messianists as conveying a humility theme, even though that's the religious interpretation today. If so, and the new "Messiah" is not really a traditional "King" at all, but only a Servant who saves us, maybe it's a harmless idea. But clearly those fire-breathing 1st-century messianists had in mind a Conqueror who would massacre millions of human enemies ("Sons of Darkness") and then enslave millions of others to his rulership, with probably the 12 Tribes having special power as appointed masters over these millions of slaves. Whatever they meant, we have no reason to want such a "Kingdom" to take place and every reason to hope this was not the vision of Jesus.

The worst possibility is that Jesus at first was tainted by some such "Kingdom" illusion, as a flaw in his understanding, but that he overcame this later. His "cleansing" the Temple and unprovoked assault on the moneychangers might be a major instance where this illusion prevailed over his better nature. That he might have been tainted in such a way does not negate the Good News and mean the miracle acts are fictional. Those must have happened, because if they did not, then there's no way to distinguish him from all the other preachers and prophets etc. who became totally forgotten in short order, even though many of them were more popular than Jesus was and should also have been mythologized into miracle-worker gods or heroes, if that's the way such miracle claims happen. But the evidence is that in some cases the miracle claims are true, even if 99.9% of such claims are fiction.

gMatthew continues with the people turning against him and wanting him crucified. But they said "His blood is on us and on our children!" which is very out-of-character for lynch mobs.
That dubious quote, only in Matthew, does not undermine the credibility of the general scene depicted, which is realistic in that historical situation. That lynch mob was not a normal gathering of Jews at a normal trial. But it was a lynch mob, as the evidence shows, all 4 accounts attesting to it. That the Matthew author exaggerated it doesn't change the basic evidence that it was a mob demanding his execution. The best explanation is that these were militant anti-Roman extremists who had wanted Jesus to start an insurrection against the Establishment -- against both Romans and the Jewish authorities in Jerusalem -- and when it was clear that he wouldn't do this, they turned against him.

This also explains why Judas betrayed him, because Judas too was one of the militants who turned against him when he saw Jesus would not support the insurrection. It also explains why they wanted Barabbas released, because Barabbas too was probably a militant who helped lead the riot at the Temple, even killing someone and being arrested for it, so that the rebels were sympathetic to him, seeing him as true to their cause, while seeing Jesus as a betrayer for not supporting their violent rebellion.


The "Trial"
The "lynch mob" demanding he be crucified

This militant aggressive mob of rebels were being very loud and restless, so that the way to pacify them was to condemn Jesus to death and release Barabbas, which was symbolic only, obviously -- and yet such symbolism is often the way to satisfy a mindless mob and avoid trouble -- let a scapegoat suffer as an easy resolution. Whereas the Christian writers later, or Jewish-Christian writers, knew Jesus was innocent and finally turned the blame against most or all Jews as responsible for the injustice of killing someone innocent and releasing the one who was guilty.

This is totally realistic, explaining the facts we have and what happened, i.e., the evidence or facts in the written record. Whatever the truth is has to accept the facts or evidence we have, as told to us in the written accounts, on the points where they agree or harmonize and are not contradicted by any sources. The only argument against this is that you don't like it -- it rubs you the wrong way, so you must create something else in place of the facts.

Plus also, there's no explanation for any of this unless Jesus did in fact do the miracle acts, which explains why he drew any attention at all and became expected by the messianic extremists to start the insurrection. So all the facts are explained by simply accepting the evidence that he must have done the miracle acts, causing him to become conspicuous as someone -- or The One -- to fulfill the messianic hopes, however deranged these hopes may have been (depending on which messianic version you choose).

It's OK if your impulse is to dismiss the miracle acts as impossible and therefore fiction. But then you are rejecting the evidence. You could argue that this is one case in history where the evidence has to be wrong. But you can't argue that these are not the facts, based on the historical record, or the written record from the time of the events.
 
We can? He hadn't really broken any laws, other than being a public nuisance in the temple. He wasn't questioning Roman rule. He represented one of the, at that time, many side branches of Judaism. It was undergoing dramatic changes at that point.
There's no way to know that.
Had Jesus been part of one of the more violent groups it would explain the crucifixion sentence. And likely get left out of the Legend as it was being "refined" for a Greco-Roman audience.

There's tons of stuff that got left out of His biography.
Tom

Good point. All the stuff about Jesus talking about non-violence and turning the other cheek, could have been backpeddling from his surviving followers to appease the Herodian and Roman authorities. Just to save their own asses. We should't assume that the Bible is, at all, an accurate depiction of what happened.
 
It's OK if your impulse is to dismiss the miracle acts as impossible and therefore fiction. But then you are rejecting the evidence.
I do that a lot. When people make wildly implausible, even impossible, claims (oftentimes not fact-checkable) my instincts are to dismiss the claims. It happens most days, if I turn on the news.

There was a guy I ran into at a couple of parties back in the late 70s. He seemed to sincerely believe that he had met Frodo Baggins and a few other hobbits. I could think of several different explanations for this belief, most involved psychedelic drug use. LOTR was very popular, culturally, at the time so maybe he was tripping and ran into a LOTR costume party. Who knows? He believes in this miraculous event and I don't, despite his "evidence".
Tom
 
Historical Fact vs. Fiction

Roman historians wrote in support of the reigning powers.

Even today you may have to read several histories by different authors to get a clear picture. Historians have always written from a viewpoint. If it were just about facts there would be little to write about.

The Arthurian legends started when a monk wrote a book History Of Britain in which he turned folk stories into King Arthur.
And how do we know King Arthur is fiction? (or mostly fiction)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Arthur
Arthur is portrayed as a leader of the post-Roman Britons in battles against Anglo-Saxon invaders of Britain in the late 5th and early 6th centuries. He first appears in two early medieval historical sources, the Annales Cambriae and the Historia Brittonum, but these date to 300 years after he is supposed to have lived, and most historians who study the period do not consider him a historical figure.
This in effect says the date of writing is a main criterion for judging that the legend is non-historical. 300 years later than the actual events tells us that it's probably fiction. This is also a reason to judge the legend of Elijah/Elisha as fiction, which appears in the written record about 300 years later than the historical time of these two Jewish prophets. So the miracle stories evolve over centuries of story-telling and mythologizing.

Likewise I believe that is how the Jesus legend evolved.
Nnnnnnnnnope. The Arthur legends required 300 years of mythologizing in order to emerge in the writings. The Jesus miracle stories appear in writings 20-70 years later, and in 4 (5) different sources. So they did not evolve the same way the Arthur legend evolved. You have to find a different way to explain how the Jesus legend evolved. You have to compare Jesus to another figure for whom we have writings appearing in less than 100 years in multiple written sources. When you make comparisons and draw parallels, you need two cases which are similar, not dissimilar, such as the case of King Arthur and that of Jesus are dissimilar.

Christianity today started with the long RCC history of evolving theology all inventions not based in the bible.
It's true that some Christian theology is not based in the Bible, but also some is, or rather is taken from the earlier written accounts which later became the New Testament. And this includes the miracle acts of Jesus and the Resurrection. These are not "inventions" from the Church, but are derived from written accounts from the 1st century AD near the time of the historical Jesus. So these are reported facts in history based on written accounts from near the time the original events happened, not 300 years later as in the case of King Arthur and other miracle fictions.

So the Catholic Church and other Christian denominations are basing this belief "in the Bible" or the earlier written sources from the time that the events happened, and not on "evolving theology" or "inventions" of later story-tellers as in the case of most/all ancient miracle legends.
 
Forget about the supernatural element. The best you can do is argue for a historical figure behind the myth, Yeshua, a charismatic Rabbi around whom the legend was built.
 
steve_bank:
. . . scant information in the gospels
written by unknown authors
. . .

ALL the ancient history is "scant information" from whatever source. No source or even group of sources gives us the whole picture. And it's true there are many fictions/legends of Jesus, because so many writers wanted to fill in the details. But we do have some information that's true, probably, based on the evidence, which is reasonable to believe even if there is also fiction or legend added to it, as with many other cases in history, where we know some of it, based on credible evidence, and then much more is conjecture only. So this is known history, plus the rest which is conjecture, including the fiction.

Just like there's fact and fiction about Davy Crockett, George Washington, etc. etc.
. . . written by unknown authors you are interpreting and . . .
There is nothing wrong with believing anonymous writings. These are a minority of our sources for ancient history, but there are several anonymous writings which are relied on for our known history. There are ways to judge some of them as unreliable, for this reason or that, but not because they are anonymous.

Two examples of anonymous writings used for history are The Royal Frankish Annals (Latin: Annales regni Francorum), and the Suda, or Souda, which is a 10th-century Byzantine Encyclopedia. These both contain fact and fiction, and they are relied on for much history which otherwise would not be known.

That they are anonymous is never cited as a reason to disbelieve them, or judge them as fiction. Rather, there is the normal critical judgment to apply to ALL the ancient writings, whether the author is named or not, and these literary works, being very voluminous and containing much obscure factual matter unavailable elsewhere, the reader always has to be skeptical. Various Bible books are anonymous -- e.g., the book of I Maccabees, which is mostly accepted as credible history by scholars/historians, both believers and non-believers. (Of course all recognize the author's bias -- adding a small percent of distortion.)

The Gospel accounts too must be read critically. But since we have 4 (5) written sources of the period which confirm the Jesus miracle acts, it's a reasonable conclusion that he did perform these acts, even if much of the detail is dubious or there are discrepancies. So, even if much is written by unknown authors, that itself is not a reason to discount the source for credibility.

. . . interpreting and rationalizing what you think happened and expressing it as if you were actually a witness.
No, I believe it based on the written record, not as "a witness" myself but accepting the ancient written accounts or evidence, just as with other ancient history facts. Obviously I was not there, but I generally believe the facts given us in our history books and in history classes, and also in the Gospel accounts and other sources from the time, believing the parts that are credible because they're not contradicted by other sources and have multiple attestation. And along with this I disbelieve the parts which do not meet these critical standards for credibility.


That is what Christians do. Interpretations evolve to fit changing times.
There's all kinds of change. One major change in modern times is the discovery of ancient manuscripts which shed light on what happened. Based on these (e.g. the Dead Sea Scrolls), believers must admit that much of Christianity adopted symbols or language from the earlier culture, and even the Gospel accounts contain some of this. So those who wrote earlier scrolls had some influence on the language used in the New Testament writings.

But, interestingly, nothing of the reported Jesus miracle acts was borrowed from the earlier culture (or rather, almost nothing. It can be argued that the story of multiplying the fish and loaves was borrowed from 2 Kings 4:42-44. But that's the single exception.). There are no earlier miracle-workers reported in those writings prior to Jesus in 30 AD. So at least the Jesus miracle acts cannot be explained as something borrowed from the earlier culture, even if some other parts of the Gospel accounts can be explained that way.

It's true that many believers have difficulty with some of their traditions which may have been borrowed from the pre-Christian culture rather than originating from the historical Jesus. But this would not include the miracle acts of Jesus, which are unique to his case.

Note that what became the Christian bible vs the Jewish scripture was mostly determined by religious politics and interests.
Yes, but the Gospel accounts themselves were written long before those decisions were made. And the selection of these writings was mostly not arbitrary, because the Gospel accounts and Paul epistles are the best written accounts about the historical Jesus which were available to the later decision-makers who chose what books to include. They were chosen precisely because they were early, 1st-century sources, not from generations or centuries later when the writers were farther removed from the actual events. But it's true that some books were chosen arbitrarily, and others were excluded arbitrarily.

In any case, being chosen by those "religious politics and interests" is not the criterion for what is credible or what is the truth. All the writings of the period have to be considered in order to determine what happened. And the writings outside the Bible canon, even in the 1st century or close to it, do not contradict the Jesus miracle acts, but only confirm this if it's mentioned. E.g., the Gospel of Thomas, which some think is early and may really contain some 1st-century elements to it, does not contradict the 4 canonical Gospel accounts.

So it doesn't matter that the selection of the New Testament books may have been partly arbitrary. This fact does not contradict anything significant in the Gospel accounts.


Competing ideas and writings were suppressed from the start in favor of the new orthodoxy.
This is not correct, though it depends on which writings you mean. It's true that some Arian writings might have been suppressed, though there's no actual evidence of it. The only evidence is that Arian property was seized and their religious services banned, and even some Arians killed. Even if it's true that some Arian writings actually were destroyed, which no evidence shows, still those writings did not contradict the reported miracle acts of Jesus or the Resurrection, but all agreed with that particular part of the orthodox Christian beliefs. What the orthodox Christians did was ban the Arian teaching on the nature of Christ -- ideas in conflict with the Trinity doctrine. But most of the Arian teaching was the same as the orthodox belief, on what Jesus did and said.

Also, there were no other teachings suppressed than the Arian teachings, which were banned as heresy. No pagan teachings were banned and no pagan writings were suppressed. There's no evidence, though you can believe those claims because you feel sure that the orthodox Christians did that. But there's no evidence of it, nothing reported in the writings saying that the Christians destroyed pagan writings.

The closest to anything like this is a report that a pagan temple in Antioch was burned by a Christian mob, in about 363 AD, near the time of Emperor Julian. But at most it was a pagan temple/museum that was burned, and maybe some ancient pagan scrolls were destroyed in a library connected to that building. But it's not that library that was targeted, if the incident did happen.

The belief in the divinity of Jesus was not universal.
The belief in the miracle acts / Resurrection was universal among all the Christ cults or Christ-belief factions. They all believed these events as historical, but there were many interpretations of Jesus historically and his relation to God -- whether he was identical to God or had some special relation, and if he was divine, especially if he was divine from the beginning, even before he appeared in history, or if he somehow BECAME divine at some point. There was no "universal" belief or interpretation about this.

But they all were in agreement that he did perform the miracle acts.

The Nicene Creed was in effect a political loyalty oath to the new Christian orthodoxy, which became the RCC. I learned it by heart in RCC schools.

So, Christians today do not realize what they see as Christianity was crafted in the 2nd 3rd centuries with no connection to what Jesus may have been.
Most Christians do realize that -- though it's incorrect to say there is "no connection" to the 1st-century Jesus. What happened in that period before Nicaea was a gradual development of the doctrines, but these doctrines were all an attempt to explain what had happened in about 30 AD. These later doctrines might contain some error or misinterpretation of what happened originally. It's not so important that everything be interpreted exactly and completely and perfectly. The original facts show that Jesus was special, having super-human power. But how to explain those facts, what caused Jesus to be special, or the nature of it, is not something anyone has figured out very well. And this doesn't really matter so much, though some believers think their interpretation has to be the only truth and all who think otherwise are cast into hell fire -- and they are mistaken about this.
 
Lumoy,

I do not care what people believe. It is what people do in the name of belieff that matters.

Not all histry is scant, you are rayiknalixng yiur irrational bekief.

We know a lot about Caesar, Alexander, Plato, Aristotle. The Jewish revolt left archeological evidence at Masada. They left wrings. There is historical corroborations.

Nothing for Jesus. Even the term Jesus Christ is symbolic. The gospel Jesus and the supernatural myths are obviously Greek. Jesus in the gospels makes sense as a Greek/Roman demigod.

A demigod typcaly offsring or lineage from a god and human. Some powers but not all of the god parent. Mary being impregnated by a god is Greek, an abomination to Jews.

The form of the gospel stores was that of a Greek myth. Gentiles of the day would understand the myth, they were the targt audience of the story.

Jews were not hoping for mystical prophet, they wanted a king to restore them to glory. A leader in the line of David.

We do not know the family name of the alleged Jesus. To me Jesus Christ was a general tag applied to numerous events and people. Somebody in a movent gets crucifed and people say 'Jesus was curcfied'. Sombody gives a smonn on a hill and its 'Jesus gave a sermon'.

Where did the term Christ come from?
Jesus | Facts, Teachings, Miracles, Death, & Doctrines ...
Christ was not originally a name but a title derived from the Greek word christos, which translates the Hebrew term meshiah (Messiah), meaning “the anointed one.” This title indicates that Jesus' followers believed him to be the anointed son of King David, whom some Jews expected to restore the fortunes of Israel.Aug 18, 2023
 
Lumoy,

I do not care what people believe. It is what people do in the name of belieff that matters.

Not all histry is scant, you are rayiknalixng yiur irrational bekief.

We know a lot about Caesar, Alexander, Plato, Aristotle. The Jewish revolt left archeological evidence at Masada. They left wrings. There is historical corroborations.

Nothing for Jesus. Even the term Jesus Christ is symbolic. The gospel Jesus and the supernatural myths are obviously Greek. Jesus in the gospels makes sense as a Greek/Roman demigod.

A demigod typcaly offsring or lineage from a god and human. Some powers but not all of the god parent. Mary being impregnated by a god is Greek, an abomination to Jews.

The form of the gospel stores was that of a Greek myth. Gentiles of the day would understand the myth, they were the targt audience of the story.

Jews were not hoping for mystical prophet, they wanted a king to restore them to glory. A leader in the line of David.

We do not know the family name of the alleged Jesus. To me Jesus Christ was a general tag applied to numerous events and people. Somebody in a movent gets crucifed and people say 'Jesus was curcfied'. Sombody gives a smonn on a hill and its 'Jesus gave a sermon'.

Where did the term Christ come from?
Jesus | Facts, Teachings, Miracles, Death, & Doctrines ...
Christ was not originally a name but a title derived from the Greek word christos, which translates the Hebrew term meshiah (Messiah), meaning “the anointed one.” This title indicates that Jesus' followers believed him to be the anointed son of King David, whom some Jews expected to restore the fortunes of Israel.Aug 18, 2023
Steve, just last week you were telling me that Jesus was a "Jew preaching to Jews" and any Christian who doesn't keep an ultra-orthodox interpretation of the Torah is a heretic. This week, you're preaching to Lumpenproletariat that Jesus is a Greek demigod and an "abomination to Jews"?

Let me know when you want to do a week telling everyone that Jesus was a purely Latin spy and saboteur sent to inflitrate and unmake the Essenes.
 
What I have always said is the Jesus of the gospels as a Jew of the day would have been one of a number of wandering 'prophets'. There was rebellion and Jewish nationalism in the air. Jews wanted a leader to restore Israel to power, not a delusioal mystc who thought he was related to god.

I believe the gospel stories were likely based on oral stories of multiple events and people. That would explain multiple images of the Jesus character. The gospels were likely fictionalized embellished stories with a supernatural myth of a god son to attract the gentiles. It is wkat makes sense to me. Promotional literature.

If that conflicts with your image of Jesus as a purveyor of a superior morality that is your priblem not mine. Your version of Jesus is no more or less valid than anyone else's. You rationalize beliefs as do all the theists on the forum past and present.

As I don't believe there was single historical Jesus and the authorship is unknown I freely speculate as debate evolves on religion. Ad this is informal discussion I do not worry if at times I may be inconsistent.

To me Christianity is all nonsense to begin with.

The tone and choice of words and personal comments in your response, do hey reflect your Jesus based morality? Where is that Christian inner peace and serenity?

Moralty comes down to what you do and say, not who you quote. As I said the test of your beliefs is when you are faced with consequences following your beifs. . Anything else is armchair intellectual moralizing. If you do not understand that you do not understand morality and Christianity.

The gospel Jesus went to his death for his beliefs, that is an inspiratin for Christians.
 
Steve, just last week you were telling me that Jesus was a "Jew preaching to Jews" and any Christian who doesn't keep an ultra-orthodox interpretation of the Torah is a heretic. This week, you're preaching to Lumpenproletariat that Jesus is a Greek demigod and an "abomination to Jews"?

A distinction I try to make is the distinction between Jesus and Christ. I find it most plausible that Jesus was an historical figure and Christ is a pagan style myth. Christ was based on Jesus, but very loosely.

I see very plausible kernels of truth in nearly all the Legends of Christ. From the Nativity to the Resurrection and Ascension, I can easily imagine stories that were true in their original form but developed multiple layers of legends out in the pagan world.
That's how I think Jesus turned into Christ.
Tom
 
Sometimes it "tickles the funny bone" to hear pontifications by alleged "experts"!

The crucifixion is one of the very few facts of Jesus' life that can be inferred with near-certainty. And crucifixion had to be ordered by the Roman governor.
Near certainty.
...
At that point, Jesus had a choice to make. He knew it and so did His followers.
... He deliberately chose an incredible self sacrifice for His buddys. Torture and crucifixion, but only for Himself.

That made Him a Hero!
When no Roman soldiers came out arresting His friends and compadres, they all knew the sacrifice Jesus had made for them. They started referring to themselves as "Brothers of Christ", Christ meaning Jesus the Messiah. No praise was too high. No legend too flattering.
And the Legend began.
...



... That came later, after the fall of Masada 70AD.

Masada fell in 74 AD. You seem to be conflating it with the destruction of Zerubbabel's Temple.

Pointing out a 4-year error in events almost 2000 years ago may seem like nitpicking. But anyone actually familiar with those important historic events is well aware of the heroic story of Masada. Dating its fall to 70 AD is like imagining that Japan surrendered a month after Pearl Harbor was attacked!
 
Sounds like a low budget B movie script.

Was Jesus preaching pacifism or was he rejecting armed rebellion against Rome.


Matthew 26:52-56 NLT

“Put away your sword,” Jesus told him. “Those who use the sword will die by the sword. Don’t you realize that I could ask my Father for thousands of angels to protect us, and he would send them instantly? But if I did, how would the Scriptures be fulfilled that describe what must happen now?” Then Jesus said to the crowd, “Am I some dangerous revolutionary, that you come with swords and clubs to arrest me? Why didn’t you arrest me in the Temple? I was there teaching every day. But this is all happening to fulfill the words of the prophets as recorded in the Scriptures.” At that point, all the disciples deserted him and fled.

52 “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?”

55 In that hour Jesus said to the crowd, “Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come out with swords and clubs to capture me? Every day I sat in the temple courts teaching, and you did not arrest me. 56 But this has all taken place that the writings of the prophets might be fulfilled.” Then all the disciples deserted him and fled.
Read full chapter

Did Jesus actually say it or did a writer take it from Psalms.

“Jesus cried out in a loud voice, 'Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani? ' which is translated, 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? ' ” (Mark 15:34; Matthew 27:46) is a direct quotation from Psalm 22:1.
 
Jesus spke in a Jewish temple. I would think that to follow Jesus one would attend a Jewish temple.
 
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