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Historical Jesus

Learner,

What makes you think the gospels represent what really happened? Your personal bible is a translation of a translation of a translation...certainly the translations were corrupted uy bias of the traslators.


In January 1604, King James convened the Hampton Court Conference, where a new English version was conceived in response to the problems of the earlier translations perceived by the Puritans,[7] a faction of the Church of England.[8]

James gave the translators instructions intended to ensure that the new version would conform to the ecclesiology, and reflect the episcopal structure, of the Church of England and its belief in an ordained clergy.[9] The translation was done by six panels of translators (47 men in all, most of whom were leading biblical scholars in England) who had the work divided up between them: the Old Testament was entrusted to three panels, the New Testament to two, and the Apocrypha to one.[10] In common with most other translations of the period, the New Testament was translated from Greek, the Old Testament from Hebrew and Aramaic, and the Apocrypha from Greek and Latin. In the 1662 Book of Common Prayer, the text of the Authorized Version replaced the text of the Great Bible for Epistle and Gospel readings (but not for the Psalter, which substantially retained Coverdale's Great Bible version), and as such was authorized by Act of Parliament.[11]

By the first half of the 18th century, the Authorized Version had become effectively unchallenged as the only English translation used in Anglican and other English Protestant churches, except for the Psalms and some short passages in the Book of Common Prayer of the Church of England. Over the course of the 18th century, the Authorized Version supplanted the Latin Vulgate as the standard version of scripture for English-speaking scholars. With the development of stereotype printing at the beginning of the 19th century, this version of the Bible had become the most widely printed book in history, almost all such printings presenting the standard text of 1769 extensively re-edited by Benjamin Blayney at Oxford, and nearly always omitting the books of the Apocrypha. Today the unqualified title "King James Version" usually indicates this Oxford standard text.

Translations have always been influenced by politics.

The modern NSRV translation has bee criticized by conservative Xhrtians for softening te male misogyny.


A divine Jesus was not the only narrative.
A good read for Learner would be God's Secretaries, The Making of the King James Bible. by Adam Nicholson.
 
I'm not sure why i continue this but the sheer dissonance seems spectacular enough to be interesting in its own right.

How did you demonstrate they are false?
Pay attention. I'll use a larger font in case that helps.

it took centuries before Christians to identify themselves as separate from Jews.
Galatians 2:9 said:
... James, Cephas and John ... gave unto me and Barnabas ... fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen and they unto the circumcision.
In this context "heathen" means Gentiles. Jews were circumcised. Gentiles were not. The uncircumcised did NOT "identify themselves as Jews." Galatians is believed to have been written in 48 AD. We'll need a cite for your claim that this was "centuries" after the birth of Christianity.

Not Christians. Because that wasn't a thing then.

Acts 11:26 said:
... Χριστιανούς ...
[KJV translation] ... and the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
Acts 26:28 said:
... Χριστιανὸν ...
1 Peter 4:16 said:
... Χριστιανός ...

Many scholars believe Acts was written about 80 AD before the letters of Paul began to circulate.
Google is your friend. You can enter "Χριστιανός" into an appropriate Google page and listen to the sound. Does it resemble any relevant words? Contrary to gibberish posted in another thread on this forum, the "Χ" is not a replica of the Christian cross symbol but is the letter Chi, pronounced Kai.

Capische?

- - - - - - - - - -

ETA:

... Christians just went to Jewish temples on Saturday and ...
Was it two years ago that I tried to help you learn what a Jewish temple is? (Hint: It hardly ever takes a plural form!) Two years, and you haven't tried Google? Or a dictionary? I'm used to it, but your mistaken terminology here will make you look like the fool.
 
Where are the other reported miracle-workers of antiquity?


Exchange from the Historical Jesus Chat Room

I'm posting this as an example to show that no one can refute (or come close to refuting) this simple fact about the Historical Jesus, that he's the only documented case, in the historical record, of a miracle-worker in the ancient world. There are no others, even though there's a multitude of debunkers continually claiming there were many other reputed miracle-workers.

from:






Joe In Cal: Joined the room

Lumpenproletariat: Is there any other reported miracle-worker from 500 BC to 100 AD? to be found in any of the writings?

Joe In Cal: serapis, of course

Lump: No, that's BEFORE 500 BC.

Joe: no it's not

Lump: ancient legend

Lump: When did Serapis live?

Joe: yeah, but not ancient but not 500 bc

Joe: i have no reason to think serapis ever did live

Lump: REPORTEDLY

Joe: but his worshippers were claimed to be healers

Lump: which ones?

Lump: reported in what writings?

Lump: And when and where did Serapis REPORTEDLY live?

Joe: the religion began sometime around 325 bc

Lump: I'm asking about reported miracle-workers, to be found in the literature.

Joe: still going in the first century ad

Lump: But when did SERAPIS himself live?

Joe: when did yahweh live?

Lump: who knows?

Lump: The Jesus miracle-worker lived 30 AD. reported in the writings.

Joe: did he?

Lump: north end of the Sea of Galilee

Joe: according to the talmud he lived around 100 bc

Lump: reported in the writings, verified as 1st century.

Joe: never verified

Lump: 1st-century writings.

Joe: looks like you have nothing

Lump: agreed by ALL the scholars

Lump: you say don't believe the scholars.

Lump: OK, your belief is to reject all the scholars.

Lump: I'm asking about the reported FACTS as agreed by scholars, known from the writings, still in mss in museums etc.

Joe: you have nothing real to offer

Joe: l'll wait for someone real

Lump: from that historical record, where is there a reported miracle-worker from 500 BC to 100 AD?

Lump: OK, facts are not what matters to you.

Lump: I'm going to post this exchange in the Historical Jesus Forum. We agree that if we go by the recognized facts of history, there is only this one reported miracle-worker from 500 BC to 100 AD.
______________________

ORIGIN OF SERAPIS

Here's the Wiki on Serapis:

Serapis or Sarapis is a Graeco-Egyptian God. The cult of Serapis was created during the third century BC on the orders of Greek Pharaoh Ptolemy I Soter of the Ptolemaic Kingdom[1] in Egypt as a means to unify the Greeks and Egyptians in his realm.

The cultus of Serapis was spread as a matter of deliberate policy by the Ptolemaic kings. Serapis continued to increase in popularity during the Roman Empire, often replacing Osiris as the consort of Isis in temples outside Egypt. Though Ptolemy I may have created the official cult of Serapis and endorsed him as a patron of the Ptolemaic dynasty and Alexandria, Serapis was a pre-existing syncretistic deity derived from the worship of the Egyptian Osiris and Apis[2] -------

[break from wiki page] -- So it says this Serapis character in history (if he existed) goes back to Osiris and Apis ("Apis Bull" which communicated between humans and Osiris), so Serapis, if historical, had to live back around 3000 BC. So we have some mention of him first in about 280 BC, more than 2500 years after he reportedly lived.

------ [continuation of wiki page] ---- and also gained attributes from other deities, such as chthonic powers linked to the Greek Hades and Demeter, and with benevolence derived from associations with Dionysus.
[end of wiki quote]


So, Serapis either is not historical, or if he is, his time was more than 2000 years earlier than any written claim about him as a healer.

So again, the conclusion is that there is NO REPORTED MIRACLE-WORKER from 500 BC to 100 AD in any ancient historical record. (other than the one conspicuous exception of Jesus about 30 AD, who is the only reported case, despite the repeated claims that there were others)

Why do so many crusaders want to claim there were others, and yet when asked for examples they have nothing to offer? even though they continue on making these false claims? Why do they do this?
________________________

TALMUD REFERENCE TO JESUS:

Talmud is inconsistent in dating Jesus. But even if the date there is confused, the Talmud is much later, after 300 AD, much too late to be taken as a source for Jesus in the 1st century.
____________________

So we have confirmation from a Jesus-debunker "Joe in Cal" that there is ONLY ONE documented miracle-worker in the ancient writings, reported in ancient writings near the time he reportedly lived. And there's no other reported miracle-worker who comes close to this as verified in multiple sources of the time.

This is the conclusion which must be admitted by anyone who checks out the facts, from the evidence, the ancient writings, which are our only source for the ancient history events.

If the explanation is that no one really cares what the facts are about this, then why do so many debunkers keep insisting that there many other miracle-workers before Jesus, i.e., FORERUNNERS to him and which served as models for the later Gospel writers? Where are these earlier Jesus-like miracle-workers? If they aren't really there, as the facts indicate, then why don't the debunkers just admit that they are not there, and that the 1st-century Jesus is actually the only case for whom there is a written record of the time?

IF THEY REALLY DON'T CARE what the facts are about this, then why don't they just admit the fact, that the 1st-century Jesus is the only documented case, and just admit that they can't explain it, and then maybe add that it doesn't really matter because it's not important?

Why instead do they have to keep giving the false examples -- Hercules, Apollonius of Tyana, Elijah/Elisha, Serapis, Gautama Buddha, Osiris, Pythagoras, Honi the Circle-Drawer, on and on -- all of which are ancient legends only, never from multiple sources dated near the time that the reported miracle-worker lived? Why do they keep doing this?

Why doesn't someone explain this? Isn't it odd that educated people keep repeating the same falsehood over and over? as if they've been programmed to do this? What is supposed to be the benefit to society of continuing to repeat this same falsehood over and over?
 
Does one automatically believe everything that is in some ancient document?
Of course not. But it's reasonable to believe the claim if it's reported in multiple sources, and these sources are near the time -- less than 100 or 200 years -- from when the reported event happened; also, if the claim is not contradicted by other sources near the time.

If the claim is highly unusual, then we need more than only one source.


Like believe that the founder of Rome was the son of a god and a virgin, someone who escaped a rival's attempt to kill him in his infancy, someone who was found and raised by a wolf before being raised by a human couple. All in Livy's "History of Rome", a major source.
But dated 500+ years later than the reported events. Also, reported in this one source only. This is not good evidence for any unusual claim, like miracle events.
 
Taoism predates JC by centuries and is
filled with the supernatural
What "supernatural" events does it report? You have to give an example of a miracle event, especially a miracle act someone did. Of course there were mystical feelings people had about the "supernatural" -- but what particular events are reported, as something that was witnessed by onlookers?

If you don't have any examples of this, then you're not giving any evidence of other miracle-workers in the ancient world, or miracle events -- nothing comparable to the case of Jesus in 30 AD.


They believed in a kind of immortality and searched for it.
But do they report any example of someone raised from the dead? such as is reported of Jesus in the 1st century? Of course there is mention of possible immortality, or hope for it, in previous literature. But where are there reported cases of someone who raised another from the dead, or who rose back to life after being killed? such as is reported of Jesus in the 1st century?


"Those who speak do not know, those who know do not speak", Lao Tzu The Tao Te Ching. Read it in the 70s.
Wow! I'm awe-struck. (Actually I should not make fun of this -- it's a good description of today's politicians and talk-show hosts -- something to think about.)


Indian traditions have supernatural. Reincarnation. Buddhism with its supernatural lements predates Jesus by two or three centuries and had no connection to Judaism.
No one's claiming there were no religions before Jesus. What there was not before him was any case of a miracle-worker, reported in multiple written accounts near the time the miracle-worker existed -- i.e., the same kind of evidence which we have for normal historical events, reported to us in the written accounts which have survived down to us.

So the claim is: there were no other documented cases of a miracle-worker -- not that there wasn't any religion or supernatural beliefs or hope for immortality, etc.

Why isn't it reasonable to ask for cases where there is normal evidence, the same as for all the other events of history which we believe because they're reported by writers near the time the events happened?


Jesus as the sacrificial lamb was predated in Jewish scripture.
That's just a religious interpretation of Jesus, not an observable fact about him. The empirical facts are that he performed the miracle acts, then he was condemned to death, crucified, buried, and then rose again and was seen alive. Those are reported empirical facts (ALLEGED empirical facts) which either happened or did not.

The "sacrificial lamb" language is only someone's interpretation or symbolization of the empirical facts. Just because some later religionists interpretated the Jesus event(s) this way does not tell us whether the reported Jesus event(s) actually happened. Giving a symbolic meaning to it does not negate the reported fact which the later interpreter is trying to explain. That later believers gave these interpretations helps to establish that something unusual happened. The unusual event happened first -- i.e., the miracle acts/Resurrection -- and then later some believers gave this symbolic meaning to it.

Sorry brother Lumpy, Jesus was not unique.
But as usual you don't have any facts to show that there were any other miracle-workers in the ancient world. All you prove is that there were other things that happened before Jesus, and so he was not "unique." But if "unique" really means something -- i.e., that he's the only documented case of a miracle-worker in the ancient world -- you're agreeing he's "unique" because you can't give an example of any other such case. Just saying there were other religious beliefs before him does not show that there were any other cases of reported miracle-workers.

You can say his "uniqueness" does not matter, but you're agreeing with the claim that he is the only case, and that thus he is "unique" in the sense that he's the only documented case of a miracle-worker in all the ancient literature. And it's just that you dismiss this because being the single only case is not "unique" as you see it. So you're quibbling over the meaning of "unique" but not disagreeing with this claim that he was unique.


And as I said the gospel Jesus is more in line with a Greek demigod. Greek mythology is obviously filled with gods, spirits, and supernatural happenings.
Whatever that means, you still cannot give any example of a person -- "demigod" or whatever -- in history who reportedly did miracle acts, such as we have reports of Jesus doing this, in written accounts of the time. At best you might give names of ancient legends circulating only as legends for many centuries before finally being recorded in writing -- i.e., not appearing in literature until centuries later than when reported miracle event happened, if it happened.

A miracle event not reported until 1000 years later is not credible. Not even normal events can be believed with assurance if the only report of them is many centuries later. There are no Greek demigods or Greek myth heroes who reportedly did miracle acts attested to in any written accounts near the time it happened. So the Jesus reported miracle acts cannot be explained this way -- the same as a "Greek demigod" -- and are not in the same category as those pagan miracle legends.


Jason and the Argonauts, a mythical supernatural Greek adventure.
This is reported in one source only, many centuries later. But even so, it's likely that there was such an event and that the miracle elements were added much later as a result of the mythologizing which happens over many centuries of storytelling. This has no similarity to the Jesus miracle acts reported in 4 (5) sources dated 20-70 years later.


By the time the gospels were written Greek and Roman action/fiction/supernatural adventure fiction was well developed.
That has nothing to do with the claim that Jesus was unique. His uniqueness is not that there were no earlier adventure stories. Rather, the claim is that he's the only reported miracle-worker in all the literature for whom we have multiple sources attesting to his miracle acts, and these are sources near to his time, just as regular events of history are known to us from such sources, near to when the events happened rather than centuries later.


Not much different than fantasy adventure movies and books today.
That's different because we have multiple attestation, contemporary to these sources, which say they are fiction and not fact. If there are other sources of the time in question which say the stories are fiction rather than fact, that is strong evidence that the reported events are fiction. But we have no ancient writings which say the Jesus miracles are fiction. Even though we do have several cases of ancient fictions and miracle hoaxes reported as fiction to us in the literature, similar to fantasy stories today which are known to be fiction rather than fact.



Nobody knows when an HJ may have lived exactly in relation to when the gospels were written.
Yes we do know, with reasonable probability just as with other historical figures we know lived and are reported in the literature. The scholars are almost unanimous that the Jesus in the Gospels is dated to about 30 AD, with uncertainty on the exact year, and uncertainty as to his birth, although even this is mostly agreed (or estimated) to be near 5 BC. And the written sources also are agreed to be about 70-100 AD (Gospels) and 50-60 AD (Epistles of Paul). We do not have this kind of historical verification for the miracle heroes of pagan mythology.

Actually there are some reasonable estimates for some pagan heroes, who might have been real historical figures -- but none for whom there is consensus among scholars such as in the case of Jesus in 30 AD.


The gospels were most likely an evolution of oral stories that were circulating, as all ancient fiction adventures evolved.
No, the pagan (miracle) myths required many centuries to evolve, even thousands of years in some cases. But it's true that most of the events, even known historical events, began as oral accounts only, circulating many years, even decades, before being written as sources which have survived to our time. Only in a very few cases do the recorded facts of history we know originate from a written account which was contemporary to the reported events, e.g., like Caesar's Gallic Wars, etc. This is not the norm for the ancient history record we know. Oral reports circulating for many years are far more typical.
 
Does this mean that we can discount the following miracle workers, because we only have a single source, many times that is very late following the events?

Moses
Aaron
Joshua
Othniel
Shamgar
Gideon
Samson
Samuel
Elijah
Elisha
Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego
Daniel
Peter
Paul
Philip

Asking for a friend.
 
That the Jesus story became dominant is social and political process we see today.
??? "dominant"?

Whatever this means, we must note that the "Jesus story" did not benefit from the power structure of the time, i.e., of the 1st century. There was power later when "the Church" became established and social and political forces came into play to shape the society, to impose doctrines and eliminate "heretics" or anything standing in the way of Christianity's growing dominance. But all that wielding of power has nothing to do with the rise of the "Jesus story" out of the 1st century, coming to us from the written record of what happened in about 30 AD.

This "Jesus story" had no dominance or privileged position within the power structure at that time, and took form as "the Gospel" well before 100 AD, probably beginning in 30 AD and developing into a disconnected collection of Christ cults, maybe each having some writings they used, and with some kind of mission or "Gospel" message or crusade expressing itself in different ways depending on which cult or Christ-belief community is considered as representative. Even if someone in power wanted to promote the "Jesus story" at this time, which cult would they choose to receive this support or subsidy? Not all these Jesus cults did the same things or preached the same interpretation of the Jesus events.

So, nothing about the power structure, or dominators of the social system, explains where the "Jesus story" came from or how it came to be established in the written accounts, mainly the 4 Gospels and Paul Epistles, and emerges as our written record evidence for what happened. The process for this just happened, evolved out of the many different events which no one controlled, and appears to us along with other ancient written accounts to give us evidence for what happened, like any other history. Nothing puts it into any special category to be treated differently than any other ancient written accounts, other than a need for some extra corroboration, or extra sources, because of the unusual events reported. And had there been no such extra sources, but only one, the "Jesus story" probably would have been rejected/ignored/dismissed along with all the other miracle fictions which were disbelieved by people generally, and the written accounts would not have been copied and perhaps we today would have no knowledge of this "Jesus story" because there'd be no story to tell.

The general ancient attitude toward miracle-workers or miracle claims was one of skepticism, not credulity. The only miracle claims which were generally believed were those of the ancient heroes found in folklore and legends having been passed on for centuries, not those of a recent miracle-worker who pops up from nowhere as someone new, such as in the case of Jesus in 30 AD. The people of that time were not only skeptical of such claims, but even more so than we are today.

My favorite is the Trump myth as an astute businessman, even when it is well known his business ventures were generally failures.
I.e., there are so many sources which contradict the myths, giving us evidence that the myths are fiction. This is part of the evidence we need in order to judge if the claims are true. We have to ask if the sources confirm the claims being made, or if some contradict those claims. This is generally how we can debunk many modern myths/legends, even though there may be multiple sources claiming them. We have to subtract from the sources saying it's true all the other sources contradicting these and saying it's false. By contrast, the Jesus miracle stories are not contradicted by any other 1st-century sources.

The credible sources are those from near the time the events happened rather than centuries later. We should believe these sources generally, if they're not contradicted by other sources also near the time. This rule applies equally to the ancient hero legends as well as to modern myths.

For all the myths ancient and modern, we ask: Of the reliable sources, how many affirm the myth being claimed and how many reject it as fiction?

"The Church" -- that Establishment (love it or hate it), Popes, Emperors, Council of Nicaea etc. -- whatever it did wrong into the later centuries, is irrelevant to the formation of the "Jesus story" which begins much earlier, near 30 AD. "The Church" and its Established social power structure did not create this "Jesus story" or the historical Jesus, but rather is a reaction to this story from a much earlier time. So we need to look at those earlier credible sources to determine what is fact and what is fiction about the historical Jesus. A "Church Doctrine" evolving later is more likely to be fiction rather than fact -- perhaps even a fiction to be used for manipulation or propaganda purposes, to exercise power over someone, to impose conformity, etc. Even if one could argue that such propaganda or conformity is socially useful, it's still "wrong" if we define "right" as being truthfulness in pursuing the historical facts, whatever these may be. This is what the "Quest for the Historical Jesus" is, or claims to be.

No one has shown that this "Quest" ought to be anything other than a searching for the pure historical facts and nothing else.
 
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This "Jesus story" had no dominance or privileged position within the power structure at that time,
The Jesus story isn't dominant now.

It looks that way to Americans, Europeans, and some of their (post) colonial possessions. But that's a local effect, and to conclude that it's universal is an error analogous to the belief that 'nature abhors a vacuum'.

Most people don't see Christianity dominating anything, and don't see the Jesus story as dominant.

If you lived in Pyongyang, you'd probably think that North Korea was the dominant military power in the world. If you live in North America, you'll probably see Christianity as the dominant religion in the world, for exactly the same reasons.

The Jesus story is big. But it's far from dominant.

And if it were true, it ought to be dominant - and it ought always to have been dominant. And it wouldn't be fractured and factionalised, the one true faction would necessarily have easily defeated all the others.

An actual God either wouldn't allow heresy or blasphemy; Or He wouldn't allow its suppression. If He's being insulted or misrepresented, either He doesn't mind, or He could put a stop to it without involving a bunch of half-arsed inquisitors and witch-finders who can't manage to do even the simplest things without incidentally torturing and killing a bunch of innocents.

The big problem with the idea that the Jesus story is dominant is that it actually isn't.

The little problem is that even the people who subscribe to it don't agree on what it actually is, so it's not one story at all, it's thousands of similar stories in an alliance of convenience to pretend that they are "the" story, and have a lot of adherents.
 
Most people don't see Christianity dominating anything, and don't see the Jesus story as dominant.

The Jesus story is big. But it's far from dominant.

Jesus isn't important, not even to Christian culture. Christian culture, however, is dominant. Has been for centuries, from EuroChristian Colonialism to post WWII. Most of the biggest, most epic, episodes of genocide, slavery, and oppression were committed by Christian folks.

I think it's because Christianity mostly got rid of that panty-waist liberal socialist Jesus. All that "Love your Neighbor", "Judge Not", and "What you do for the Least, you do for Me", kinda went out the window a long time ago. Then they developed firearms and ocean going vessels.
And the rest is history.
Tom

ETA ~It's not like that's the olden days either. At this moment, a super rich megalomaniac with multiple divorces and famous philandering, who wants to Wall out poor folks from central america, is the most popular candidate amongst the evangelical Christian community.
By a lot. ~
 
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steve__bank: What are you arguing?
That
the supernatural stories are true?
Some of them yes -- Why not? It best explains what made Jesus special, such that he and no one else got promoted to "Messiah" status in written accounts of the time. If he did not do those miracle acts, then what did he do? What did he do that John the Baptizer did not do? What makes Jesus any more important than any of the other popular prophets and preachers and rabbis of the time, of which there were dozens equally as popular and recognized as Jesus was in the early 1st century? (assuming he didn't do the miracle acts)

Some of the miracle acts are probably true events, even if miracle claims generally are fiction. It depends on how much attestation there is and if the stories are contradicted. Most "supernatural" stories are fiction, because of the lack of corroboration (we need extra attestation for such claims). But you cannot fanatically impose a dogmatic rule excluding all "supernatural" stories only because that's your gut instinct. Just because you put this label on them does not automatically make all such claims fiction.

You have to be willing to consider each "supernatural" story individually, not lump them altogether into one convenient package to be tossed out as fiction just because they contradict your dogmatism. All the "supernatural" stories from any source have to be looked at individually, including all the pagan and other stories claiming miracle acts or events. Probably 99% are fiction, but there are some "supernatural" stories for which there's legitimate evidence, like multiple attestation -- the same as for normal historical events -- in which case they might be credible, at least partly. I.e., the event did happen, even if the "supernatural" or religious interpretation of it is erroneous.

In most cases maybe the believers don't want to provide evidence, and they just believe regardless and are apathetic about proving it. So in those cases it's reasonable to judge the stories as fiction. But where the believer defends the story as true, you have to be willing to consider the evidence. You're not entitled to just dismiss all such stories as fiction -- or at least not if you call yourself a truth-seeker.


There are no contemporaneous accounts of any of it, all there . . .
"contemporaneous accounts"? We don't have that for 90% of our ancient history events. The accounts are dated generally 50-100-200 years later than the event(s) happened, not contemporary to the event(s). Anything reported by a writer contemporaneous to the event(s) is the rare exception.

For the pagan miracle myths there are no accounts of the events/characters until several centuries later, which puts those miracle legends into the fiction category, or maybe 1% probability of being true. All we have is high to low probability, no absolute certainty of it being true or false, whatever kind of event is claimed.


. . . all there is the gospels which Christians see as journalist reporting which did not exist then.
Just because the sources were not "journalist" doesn't mean we shouldn't believe them. They are as reliable -- and to be read critically -- as any other written accounts telling what happened. We must rely on ALL the ancient writings as sources for what happened. Many of those writers were not historians (e.g., Cicero and Philo the Alexandrian), but still we rely on them as sources, despite their having a personal bias. ALL the writings are legitimate sources, to be considered as evidence, but none to be taken as infallible or believed without questioning. Most/all the ancient historians were propagandists promoting their agenda, usually including their religious beliefs. So we should read them critically, not rejecting them automatically because of some arbitrary category we want to put them into.

It's fine to distinguish some as being more "journalist" in their approach, perhaps having more credibility, so we should take that into account. But that doesn't mean the others less journalistic are not also legitimate sources. You have to show where the source contradicts another source to show that it's not credible. And when there are discrepancies, that doesn't mean the source is tossed out as not legitimate at all. It may still be mostly accurate in describing the events, though mistaken on this or that point.


The Romans were good administrators and good record keepers. There is nothing in Roman records of any of it.
These were not Roman events, and everything Jesus did happened within a 1-3-year period, or even less than one year. Rumors about some prophet who did miraculous cures 1000 miles away from Rome, a year ago or 10 years ago, was not news or anything Romans would take seriously. All such rumors were dismissed as petty folk superstition.

Those records omit 99.99% of all the events that happened. These events are not about Romans, or Roman politics or Roman wars, which is what the "Roman records" are limited to. If you eliminate everything from history which is not in "Roman records" you have to toss out 99% of all the history of the period. ALL the sources are legitimate, not just certain "records" you want to give special status to.


What we do know is the general geopolitics and Jerusalem culture of the day. Jewish nationalism was high.
The vast majority of Jews were not involved in Jewish nationalism and were not clamoring for war against Rome. There is a false impression that this nationalism vs. Roman imperialism was the only reality going on, or the most important. But the truth is that 99% of the events had nothing to do with this particular conflict. The conflicts between the Jewish factions competing with each other for power was also part of the picture, and among these factions were many pro-Roman Jews as well as the anti-Roman nationalists. There were also the pro-Hellenist and anti-Hellenist Jews who were in conflict.

There's no necessity to put Jesus into any particular one of these conflicts as being a partisan for this or that petty crusade going on, and the anti-Roman crusade was just as petty and low-class as any other. More realistic is to see him as a neutral observer of them and that some of them tried to make him a champion for their cause, by putting their words into his mouth.


There were militant Jewish resistance to Rome.
Yes, and also pro-Roman Jews opposing them. And yet the vast majority of Jews were not involved in any resistance movement or any anti-resistance reactionary movement. Those militants, of all the different factions combined, were probably less than 5% of the population, and most Jews did not sympathize with violent resistance, though they were not pro-Roman either. There's no reason to believe Jesus himself was an anti-Roman militant. That would put him into a very tiny minority of social misfits.

What's likely is that several of those militants were attracted to him, envisioning him as a possible leader of an uprising. The vast majority of Jews were neutral, trying to avoid conflict with either the Romans or the Jewish nationalists.


There were multiple Jews claiming to be the Messiah.
These were mostly rejected by Jews. Each case of this attracted only a small number of followers, including crackpots, while Jews in general scoffed at them. There was mixed reaction to the Messiah pretenders who recruited armed rebels, and only a very tiny minority who signed up to go out to battle and get their butts kicked. There's no reason to believe Jesus was involved in any such militant rebel group, and that rather he had the good sense to stay away from them. Though he probably did not condemn the ones who showed up among his audiences and had visions of him leading an uprising for their cause.


To me the gospels are a conflation of multiple people and events embellished with fiction, which is what historians and writers of the day did. There was no communication system, writers filled in the blanks and embellished.
Yes, but they did not make up miracle-worker stories. There aren't any examples of it in any of the literature. The case of Jesus is an extreme conspicuous exception, without any other comparable case. Josephus mentions 2 or 3 charlatans pretending to be something special, and they recruited some anti-Roman militant fanatics. These were a very tiny % of the population who had little popular support, though most Jews also did not oppose them, because the adamant pro-Roman Jews were also a small minority.

There are no other persons described by the writers as doing miracle acts. There are no other written accounts depicting anyone, like a Messiah pretender, doing miracle acts. The ones mentioned by Josephus only made boastful claims, promising to do some fantastic sign, but there's nothing suggesting they actually did any miracle act. So, whatever "embellishment" there may have been by writers, it did not include claims of any "Messiah" doing miracle acts.


It happens today in main stream media. Media routinely takes hear say and spins . . .
Most or all of the ancient history originates from hearsay. Virtually none of it was witnessed directly by the writer. Rather, the writer takes it from someone telling him and accepts it as the truth -- or rather, takes it from someone who took it from someone else or someone earlier, and so on. Virtually every writer, if put on the witness stand, would have to admit that he did not witness it himself, but believed what others told him. = hearsay = most of our known ancient history. The reality is that most "hearsay" is actually true, even though it's not the most perfect scientific evidence we desire and is less reliable than direct observation. But if you eliminate all the hearsay sources from your knowledge, most of your history knowledge is certainly out the window.

. . . and spins it into what may have happened or who did what when. In the extreme 'fake news' which large numbers take as truth.
Whatever "fake news" there was 2000 years ago, it doesn't include any reports of miracle acts being done by someone, such as we see Jesus depicted. There were no others so depicted. This was not typical of any other writing of the time. Nothing about the "fake news" or the spinning explains where the Jesus miracle stories came from. There was no environment of miracle-workers being described doing such acts. These are totally unique to the Gospel accounts, not typical of anything else or part of some miracle-worker culture which was demanding such stories. There was no such demand.


Was Jesus an anti-Roman crusader?

There's no reason to insist that he was. However, the title "King of the Jews" was attributed to him, and there's much mention of the "Kingdom of God" and other language suggesting a connection to the militant anti-Romans. Also the "Entry into Jerusalem" has him sending for a donkey to carry him into the city to fulfill a Messianic prophecy. So one might conclude that he was promoting himself as some "Messiah" or "King" to take the throne of Israel and defy the Romans. We have to consider some such possibility, even though the better explanation is that the militant anti-Roman nationalists made him out to be this Messiah (or also "Son of Man" conqueror-savior of some kind), trying to adopt him as their Leader, or also later preaching this as his true mission and even putting such words into his mouth in the years later as they continued promoting their anti-Roman cause.

But let's assume Jesus was this nationalist anti-Roman xenophobe Jewish nationalist trying to stir up the population into an uprising, and his alleged attack on the Temple ("cleansing of the Temple") was his attempt to start a riot to overthrow the Establishment -- or something like that.

If this is so, then it must be acknowledged that Jesus had a flaw of some kind, being caught up in such a narrow-minded hateful crusade of violence to impose a Jewish political oppression in place of the current Roman oppression, or also earlier in place of those previous Seleucid and Ptolemaic and Persian and Babylonian oppressors.

However misguided, this Jewish nationalism in opposition to the foreign domination had not been a total failure. The Jewish nationalist Hasmonean Dynasty had partial success in this, and one might also go back to the earlier period of the David-and-Solomon rule, to find periods of partial success by Jews in establishing their own rule independently of the foreigners or neighboring tribes. And how did it work out? Did they establish the "Kingdom of God" they dreamed of, bring peace and prosperity to all the Jews, finally establish Truth and Righteousness and Harmony in accordance to the Mosaic Law they all cherished?

Hardly. The Hasmoneans e.g. were the most successful of all these attempts at self-rule, and yet the number of Jews who had to be slaughtered by these Jewish rulers was arguably greater than the number ever killed by their foreign enemies. Almost from the beginning these Jewish rulers were opposed by their own subject Jewish population, who they had to suppress in order to maintain power. One of the most ruthless, Alexander Jannaeus, was provoked so much by his Jewish sectarian enemies that he had 800 of them crucified in Jerusalem, and directly before each one of them he also tortured and butchered their respective wives and children -- not just out of sadism, but to make a point, like the Romans and others having power, to show what happens to those who challenge the Established Order, or the Regime in Power.

So what has to be recognized about these Jewish nationalists is that their cause was extremely flawed and delusional, as they were extreme aggressive fanatics who had visions of God's Rule over the people, each fanatic having his own vision, even cult worship and discipline and blood-atonement rituals, to the exclusion of all the opposing Jewish sects and nationalists who had differing visions and delusions than the current one(s) who might happen to hold power.

No cause could have been a more demented and hopeless one for Jesus or anyone else to identify with and pursue as being some kind of God's Ultimate Solution to what's wrong, for the world in general, or for the Jews, or for any other nativist populist culture seeing their breed as being God's Chosen Race or People to have dominion over all the others. If Jesus was caught up in such nationalist fanaticism, he was tragically deluded and needed to have something happen to cure him of this delusionalism. Possibly some such understanding as this might explain the inevitability of the Crucifixion, as some kind of "purification" experience, or Transformation of him away from such petty Delusionalism and toward Enlightenment in some sense.

This Transformationist type of explanation would have to be the alternative Christology Doctrine -- if it's true that he was an anti-Roman Jewish fanatic -- to identify him correctly as the miracle-worker Savior but somehow ensnared into the current petty nationalist delusionalism from which he had to be drawn out or liberated, in some sense. And so after the Resurrection he had finally reached his perfected state, finally liberated from the perverse stain of nationalist xenophobic particularism which had tainted the Jewish culture into which he had been conditioned.

Some such explanation would be needed, if in fact he was this "Look at me! - I'm the King of the Jews!" crusader. The strongest argument for this "I'm the King!" view of Jesus would be the two incidents -- Entry into Jerusalem, and the "Cleansing of the Temple" -- where he can be interpreted as making his ultimate Power Play, announcing his King status, and then provoking a riot to start the grand Uprising and Overthrow of the Establishment.

The Jesus-Debunkers want this "I'm the King!" Jesus to be the true one historically, because they know this belittles him and makes him out to be a fool and deluded fanatic nutcase, like many others who disgraced themselves -- even though one of them, Alexander the Great, achieved a high level of success at it before finally turning into a crybaby and realizing his appetite for Power could never really be satisfied.

Hopefully Jesus was not such a nutcase nationalist, and the correct historical explanation is that the apocalyptic preachers and nationalists tried to make him into one, by their later preaching and depictions of him in the writings, having him say that the "Son of Man" or the "End of the Age" is coming soon (in that generation), when he will be coronated King of the Jews, and he will gather up all the false ones (all those not members of their particular sect) and cast them out into Utter Darkness, or into Gehenna to be devoured by worms, etc., and as the Sons of Light are gathered into the Eternal Kingdom after they first defeat and vanquish and massacre the Sons of Darkness.

So Jesus became depicted here and there as this nutcase nationalist, at least in some excerpts (the Entry into Jerusalem e.g.) where some apocalyptic or Messianic crusaders showed him a certain way, having him speak certain nationalist or Jewish-particularistic language. But this could all be later artificial depictions of him -- none of it had to originate from Jesus himself, who probably / hopefully thought on a higher level.

There's every reason to believe that Jews typically -- not those on the fringe -- simply wanted to "live long and prosper" in the normal sense, without needing any "Angry God," or Yahweh, or Joshua butchering women and children at Jericho, or Angel of Death, or "Sons of Light" or other crusaders to preach "Doomsday!" at them and bring fire down from Heaven to devour the Enemy ---- and hopefully Jesus was a member of this SANE "faction" of Jews, the Silent Majority, desiring truth, more understanding, but without the aggressive Jedi and Jihadi factions always needing more "Prophets of Baal" to take down to the river and slay.
And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces; and they said, "The LORD, he is God; the LORD, he is God."
And Eli'jah said to them, "Seize the prophets of Ba'al; let not one of them escape." And they seized them; and Eli'jah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and killed them there.
The KJV sounds better -- "he slew them there" -- and also the New American Bible -- "he slit their throats" -- the sexier language has more impact.

These latter aggressive ones condemning and slaying the enemy always get the attention (similar to today's terrorists and mass shooters?), always strong-arm their way into the "news" or the public arena, to grab the headlines, to publicize their demented worldview (the "Unabomber"?), to intimidate others to join their crusade against some enemy they claim has to be destroyed in order to save the world.

Why isn't it reasonable to think that Jesus was something different than these conventional sociopaths and crusaders? doing something more genuine than their pettiness? and that likely it was these crusading fanatics especially who ended up being the most offended at him, for not joining their cause, and even leading the charge against him at the end when he was condemned to death?

Who else but these militant pseudo-patriotic aggressive dogmatists are likely to have been the mindless mob at the "trial" calling for him to be crucified?
 
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On the contrary there is corroboration for the majority of major historical figures.

In high school Latin class we read Caesar's Gallic Wars in Latin. Aristotle and Plato left comprehensive coherent writings.

Confucius 500 BCE.

Contempt accounts of figures are usually biased history and may contain fabrications, but there are corroborations as to who they were and what they did.

We know a lot about Sparticus and the save rebellion.

There is archeolgcal evidence for the Spartann defense at Thermopylae Pass.

The gospels are an incoherent collection of what today we call sound bites.

A contemporaneous account would be a letter from a Roman to a friend, "Hey Tiberius, you just gotta see this Jesus guy walk on water.'

Roman emperors always claimed themselves as decended from gods. Stories of anyone in the empire walking around performing suoernatural mircales in the name of a god claiming to be a son of a god would certainly evoke a Roman repsonse.

In the gospels it was not the Romans out for the head of Jesus, it was the Jews. In te day Jesus was one of several. We know htere wrer some who claimed to be the Messiah, somewhere bandits.

The conclusion I came to is that the gospels are a conflation of multiple events and people from oral accounts. Jesus may have been symbolic for a movement. Anythg in the movement was refered to as Jesus.
 
What the historians knew or didn't know
What they said (or should have said) about Jesus

The Romans were good administrators and good record keepers. There is nothing in Roman records of any of it.
Are there any surviving archives? I don't know of any.

What survives are the works of various historians, and none of Jesus Christ's contemporaries mentioned him, even when they might have done so.
This is a legitimate argument that they might not have known of him, or also, they knew something but discounted it as unimportant. However, it's not an argument that Jesus is fictional, or that anything about him in the Gospel accounts is fictional or dubious. (And "fictional" here doesn't just mean literally nonexistent, but also being so much different than the real historical figure that the character presented is effectively or virtually nonexistent, i.e., "fictional" in the loose sense.)

So, to say they didn't know of him is plausible, but not that this implies anything fictional about the Jesus appearing in the Gospel accounts. These accounts can be criticized as inaccurate in some way, but this judgment doesn't follow from anything about writers not mentioning him -- argument from silence.


Is it suspicious that Jesus is not mentioned by contemporary writers?

Why is this point made about the historical Jesus? Are we to assume something is amiss about the 1st-century Jesus as an historical figure (as depicted in the Gospels) because of the fact that he's not mentioned by certain contemporary writers/historians? Let's be moderate about the "Argument from Silence" and allow that this argument is not 100% wrong. Let's say it's maybe 50% legitimate as an argument, in cases where we're entitled to see some mention or reference to an alleged event or historical person, and yet this event/person is conspicuously absent. We need to consider each such case to see if we're entitled to find such a reference to him, and then to be suspicious when we find the writings in question are silent.

Should someone like Jesus be mentioned by the contemporary historians? ("contemporary" = maybe from 50-150 AD?)

It's an exception for the historians/writers to mention their contemporaries (other than the current emperor or famous general, or maybe a high political office-holder). They focus mainly on the dead historical persons 50-100-200 years earlier, also on acquaintances they knew directly, including their family, but not on a contemporary prophet or philosopher or writer, etc. whom they didn't know personally.

Socrates is mentioned by Plato and Xenophon, but only because they knew him personally, directly. The Stoic philosopher Seneca is mentioned very briefly by Tacitus, but only because Seneca was directly involved with the Emperor Nero. Without involvement like this directly with someone holding high political power, there'd be no mention of a famous philosopher or teacher or writer, etc., by a contemporary writer -- or if there is it's extremely rare.

Exceptions to this? What's the closest example of an ancient writer mentioning any contemporary other than someone of political power, and other than a direct acquaintance? Since Jesus had no impact on political power and no acquaintance with an historian or writer, there's no reason to expect that he'd be mentioned in the contemporary historical writings of his time.

Or again, can anyone give us an example of this (in ancient history): a writer mentioning a contemporary other than someone high in political power? or a contemporary to whom the writer has personal acquaintance? "contemporary" = living at the same time, rather than 100 or more years later

No doubt an example somewhere can be found. But it's probably a rare exception, so we should not require that there be such mention of an historical character by a contemporary writer as if this is a criterion to judge that the particular character must be fictional if such mention of him is lacking.

We can easily find names of real historical figures who are totally ignored by the contemporary writers. So such a rule that there must be this contemporary attestation is mostly disproven by the many examples which violate this rule and also by the so few cases to illustrate this rule as being the norm. Rather, the opposite of this rule is the norm.

Philo of Alexandria (Philo Judaeus: "Philo the Judean/Jew"): ~ 20 BCE - ~ 50 CE
He was interested in eccentric Jewish sects, and he . . .
Only ancient sects which had existed already for more than a century. He was not interested in any new Jewish sects, like that of Jesus, appearing in recent history toward his own time.

. . . and he would have been willing to write about JC if he had known about JC.
Why didn't he write about John the Baptizer who had an eccentric and conspicuous cult following and likely was connected to the Essenes or similar sect? If Philo was disinterested in this cult figure, why assume he'd be interested in Jesus? or in the Jesus cult(s) appearing later than John's cult?

Philo names no Jewish teachers near to his own time, actually mentions no Jewish rabbis or prophets other than ones from the official Scriptures of centuries earlier. He makes no mention of the most famous rabbis of this period, Rabbis Hillel (died 10 BC) and Shammai (50 BC - 30 AD). Both of these were far more famous and recognized than Jesus in the time of Philo. In addition to John the Baptizer he also ignores James the Just, who was more popular and recognized than Jesus during this period. So there's no reason to think Philo should have mentioned Jesus, considering that he never mentioned so many others who were more well-known than Jesus was.

Flavius Josephus (Latiniized "Joseph"): ~ 37 CE -- ~100 CE
He wrote some books on Biblical and then-recent Jewish history, and he does not seem to have known about JC.
But he DID know about JC, even if you discount the famous text that is disputed. He mentions Jesus and James in Antiquities 20 chapter 9, where he says the phrase "James, the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ."

His interest is directed more to James, who is the topic in this text and was more prominent than Jesus in the 1st century. But he obviously did know of "Jesus, who was called Christ." So it's incorrect to say he didn't know about JC. Most scholars accept this as an authentic quote from Josephus, and assume it refers to Jesus of 30 AD. Only a small minority of scholars dismiss it as some kind of later Christian interpolation.

So there's nothing jarring about Jesus being unmentioned by Philo and some other writers. And there actually is at least one reference in Josephus. It wasn't normal for the writers to mention anyone other than those in political power. But it is jarring to some Christians to learn that John the Baptizer and James and some others were more popular or more recognized than Jesus, at that time. The wide reputation of Jesus doesn't develop until 100-200 years later, not during his lifetime as in the case of John and James.

Maybe the reputation of Jesus the miracle-worker would have spread faster and caught up sooner if he had lived longer, like 10-20 years, doing the healing miracles longer. By comparison to all the others his public life is extremely short. We don't know for sure about the length of John the Baptist's public career, which also might have been short.

The simple straightforward conclusion to draw from all this is: Jesus is reported in the accounts as doing miracle acts, while no others are, and this must be because he actually did perform such acts while none of the others did. There's no other explanation why he alone is credited with doing such acts while many others of higher status are not credited with doing such acts, even though there is mention of them and some are more widely recognized than Jesus was at that time.


The main evidence cited for his knowing about JC is the "Testimonium Flavianum" - something that seems very out of character for him, and something that some people have proposed to be some scribe's note that got misinterpreted as part of the text.
But this is NOT the "main evidence" that Josephus knew of him, since this text is disputed and thus is doubtful, whereas the other text "Jesus, who was called Christ" is not disputed. And yet even the disputed text is still thought to be an edited version of something originally from Josephus, which later got interpolated. So there are probably two Josephus texts, one disputed, which is good evidence that he knew of the Jesus of 30 AD.

Also, Josephus mentions Philo briefly, because the latter got involved in a political dispute involving the Emperor Caligula. This illustrates again the importance of connection to political power, or having an impact on the events, as a reason a writer would mention a contemporary. This might include official recognition by the Jewish religious Establishment, holding a high position, as an important factor. Since Jesus had none of this official status or connection or impact, we'd expect him to get little or no mention in the contemporary writings/histories.

If there's any omission by Josephus which is jarring, it would be his total neglect of the Rabbis Hillel and Shammai, who had official standing as recognized Jewish teachers/scholars. But this omission doesn't mean he was ignorant of Hillel:
https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/7698-hillel -------- When Josephus ("Vita," § 38) speaks of Hillel's great-grandson, Simeon ben Gamaliel I., as belonging to a very celebrated family (γένους δφόδρα λαμροῦ), he probably refers to the glory which the family owed to the activity of Hillel and Gamaliel I. Only Hillel's brother Shebna (Soṭah 21a) is mentioned;
This example illustrates that in some cases a writer omits mention of an important person he knew of, so such omissions don't necessarily mean the writer did not know.

He mentions some self-styled prophets like Theudas and "the Egyptian", and he mentioned a riot in the Jerusalem Temple that was provoked by a Roman soldier exposing himself there.
The only reason he mentions Theudas and The Egyptian is that these were militant insurrectionists who led thousands of rebels out to do battle with the Romans. Except for this noteworthy political impact, involving Roman lives lost in battle, Josephus would have said nothing about these two characters.


He described King Herod I "The Great", the Herod of . . . [etc.]
Prominent political power-wielder.


Pontius Pilate at the "Trial"

Both Philo and Josephus also describe Pontius Pilate, a Roman provincial governor, as being a rather ruthless administrator, even by Roman standards. That is very contrary to what we find in the Gospels, of PP being reluctant to condemn JC, and . . .
There is nothing unrealistic about Pilate questioning the charges against Jesus. No matter how rotten Pilate was generally, this doesn't mean he wouldn't question the charges being made. He probably had good reason to doubt the accusations.

. . . and him sort of being pushed into doing so by the Jewish leadership.
Or "by the Jewish crowd" -- the "high priests" are there making accusations, but this doesn't necessarily mean the entire Sanhedrin, nor does it mean only the leaders, because a "crowd" is also there pushing Pilate. And there could have been a good reason for Pilate's reluctance toward a kind of lynch mob scenario taking place, so nothing about Pilate here is necessarily unrealistic.

It's important to note that this was not an official "trial" done by the book. There were members of the Sanhedrin who were NOT present, staying away because they opposed what was happening, some even being in sympathy with Jesus. Not all actions done were conducted according to the rules, which is normal when there are many rules or formalities that get in the way, and in this case there were many reasons to circumvent the rules and settle the matter, whatever it takes.

If Pilate is too much taking sides in favor of Jesus, it's not out of sympathy to an innocent victim, but out of his hatred for Judeans who were the accusers, toward whom he was negatively inclined. But then when he understood that there were anti-Roman rebels connected to Jesus, he changed and ordered the execution. There is nothing at all unrealistic here about him portrayed as not believing the charges initially. Just because he was generally rotten does not mean he would automatically condemn someone accused without questioning the charges.

Just because the Gospel accounts exaggerate Pilate's reluctance to condemn him doesn't mean the account is fiction. It's reasonable that he refused at first because he thought it was a petty squabble between some Judeans and Galileans, and he did have a special hate for Judeans.

That seems out of character for a Roman provincial governor, and certainly him, because he would not want some self-styled king to challenge Rome's rule.
It's not "out of character" as long as there was reason to doubt the accusations.

The texts say that Pilate did not believe the accusers but suspected there was some other motive they had against Jesus. There's no evidence to contradict this depiction of Pilate or of the accusers. If he truly thought they were fabricating accusations against Jesus, it was not out of character for him to hesitate. It isn't that he felt sorry for Jesus, but that he despised these Judeans. He probably yielded as soon as he was convinced that the recent insurrection had some connection to Jesus. That Barabbas appears as one of the insurrectionists suggests that this proceeding was probably prompted by that incident, i.e., the riot at the temple and assault on the moneychangers.

Despite some exaggerations, distortions, discrepancies, we should assume that the written record of this "trial" is accurate at those points where the accounts all agree about what happened, while granting that it's probably exaggerated. So instead of insisting that Pilate never hesitated at all, it's much more reasonable to assume he did hesitate at first, because there was doubt as to the accusations and guilt of Jesus. This probably included a claim that he had incited the riot.


Did Jesus really instigate the riot at the Temple?

Whether Jesus had really incited this riot might have been in dispute: If it's true that he led the riot, why had he not been arrested right then when it happened? And what if it was really Barabbas who had instigated the riot? Why was Barabbas arrested but not Jesus? That Barabbas is the one who was arrested suggests that he was more conspicuous than Jesus as the one leading the riot.

How to "CLEANSE" a Temple: The accounts of the riot have Jesus going into a rage, dragging each of the moneychangers to the door, kicking and screaming, and casting them outside violently, probably into a crowd of people and maybe scattering them this way and that, thus causing a disturbance. And he did this violent act several times, not just once, because he had to seize each moneychanger in turn and repeat this violent act again and again, dragging each one to the door and casting them headlong into the crowd, maybe knocking down or injuring a bystander. (Or can we imagine him somehow grabbing them all up at once to be carried to the door? -- something's not right about this picture.)

How did he get away with this blatant crime, lasting several minutes, and not be arrested? The police arrived soon enough to arrest Barabbas and probably others, so why didn't they arrest Jesus who couldn't have escaped notice, with all the commotion he was obviously causing?

And note also: There's no plausible explanation why this "cleansing" was necessary, or what the moneychangers were doing wrong. These legitimate operators were performing a needed service for the Temple, so the regular priestly functions could be carried out for the benefit of worshipers. No one has ever explained what proper action Jesus was performing by assaulting these workers at the Temple. Since this act by him was blatantly illegal, it's likely that this was the direct act that provoked the authorities to arrest him on criminal charges, and so this incident probably is connected with the "trial" and condemnation of him before Pilate.


The Barabbas episode

The Barabbas appearance in the accounts doesn't make sense, as presented. Yet all the accounts say he was brought forth to make some point. No one has explained what the point is. To make a metaphor out of it makes no sense, and neither does it make sense to say there was no Barabbas incident at all. Something must have happened involving this Barabbas character, even if it's not clear.

What's almost certain is that the "trial" is connected to the earlier Temple riot where Barabbas was arrested, and likely relates to the guilt for inciting the riot and doubt about who the real instigator was. This can explain why Pilate was hesitant, because he wasn't convinced about who really was to blame for starting the riot.

The Gospels obviously don't give any straightforward explanation, so we have to speculate.

One simple explanation (or part of the explanation) is that it was not Jesus at all who started the riot but someone else, and Jesus was nearby and got blamed in some way. It's certainly likely that Pilate was questioning the charges, as all the accounts say, and likely it was about guilt for inciting the riot -- and quibbling over whether Pilate was a bad person has nothing to do with it.


All the sources agree (no discrepancy) that Pilate hesitated but then pronounced the death sentence -- so his hesitation is likely part of the original event.

At some point Pilate acknowledged a connection of Jesus to the insurrectionists, probably believing Jesus was a "King of the Jews" pretender of some kind. The time-span of his hesitation might have been only a minute or 2, as he hesitated at first until the accusers convinced him. He might have suspected Barabbas was the real instigator and so tried to switch the blame from Jesus to Barabbas, and so at first he demanded better evidence from the accusers.

It's probably correct to say the Gospel accounts exaggerate this and artificially make Pilate appear heroic in defending Jesus. It's plausible that they all contain this exaggeration, based on a real detail from the original event, but not plausible that each account introduced its own distortion to have Pilate showing reluctance which he did not show -- they would not all fabricate such a detail. Fabrication of a whole new detail by each of the 4 accounts is much less likely than exaggeration of something already part of the original account or version of the story. And since all the accounts agree, and there's no evidence otherwise, we should assume Pilate resisted at first and had to be convinced -- and this moment of hesitation could easily have gotten exaggerated by all the writers sympathetic to Jesus who they thought was innocent.

Some such speculation as this can explain what happened while in no way contradicting the consensus among all the sources that Pilate was mean and evil and rotten.
 
I'm not sure why i continue this but the sheer dissonance seems spectacular enough to be interesting in its own right.

How did you demonstrate they are false?
Pay attention. I'll use a larger font in case that helps.

it took centuries before Christians to identify themselves as separate from Jews.
Galatians 2:9 said:
... James, Cephas and John ... gave unto me and Barnabas ... fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen and they unto the circumcision.
In this context "heathen" means Gentiles. Jews were circumcised. Gentiles were not. The uncircumcised did NOT "identify themselves as Jews." Galatians is believed to have been written in 48 AD. We'll need a cite for your claim that this was "centuries" after the birth of Christianity.

Not Christians. Because that wasn't a thing then.

Acts 11:26 said:
... Χριστιανούς ...
[KJV translation] ... and the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
Acts 26:28 said:
... Χριστιανὸν ...
1 Peter 4:16 said:
... Χριστιανός ...

Many scholars believe Acts was written about 80 AD before the letters of Paul began to circulate.
Google is your friend. You can enter "Χριστιανός" into an appropriate Google page and listen to the sound. Does it resemble any relevant words? Contrary to gibberish posted in another thread on this forum, the "Χ" is not a replica of the Christian cross symbol but is the letter Chi, pronounced Kai.

Capische?

- - - - - - - - - -

ETA:

... Christians just went to Jewish temples on Saturday and ...
Was it two years ago that I tried to help you learn what a Jewish temple is? (Hint: It hardly ever takes a plural form!) Two years, and you haven't tried Google? Or a dictionary? I'm used to it, but your mistaken terminology here will make you look like the fool.

You're making a category error. You see two groups, Christians and Jews and then place people in one of these binary categories. There was one big grey area of amorphous identities and ideologies. A big problem for the early church was that gentile converts really struggled with the first commandment. They just didn't think like that. It would take a thousand years before that way of thinking left the Medditerranean. There was quite the disconnect between what church leaders were preaching and what Christians was hearing.

You also make the mistake of equating someone at some point writing something, and that instantly becoming generaly accepted as a teaching by the layiety. Getting the Christian leadership to agree on doctrine took centuries. Or millenea. It's arguably ongoing. How likely do you think the average (illiterate) Christian would grab the finer points of Christian theology.

You're just wrong. You have accepted a simplified Christian propagandistic historical narrative, as if it is the truth. It's just a story. I doubt you'll be able to find any serious Christian scholar to agree with you.
 
Part of the point is that Jesus whoever he may have been did not rise to the level that got Rome's attention. If anything it was the Jerusalem religious power elite he was messing with.

People were crucified all the time. At one time Romans crucified people along a main road into the city to make a point about following rules.

Still no corroboration. N writings, no paintings or busts.
 
All the sources agree (no discrepancy) that Pilate hesitated but then pronounced the death sentence -- so his hesitation is likely part of the original event.

When you say "all sources", what you mean is all the sources that still exist.

During the centuries before those particular stories were canonized there were plenty of reasons to whitewash the part played by the Romans. But there's no particular reason to believe that whoever produced the Gospels had detailed accuracy as a goal, or an accurate account of the proceedings.
Quite the contrary.
Tom
 
All the sources agree (no discrepancy) that Pilate hesitated but then pronounced the death sentence -- so his hesitation is likely part of the original event.

Better phrased as "BOTH the sources." The synoptic gospels taken together and John are the only real records of Jesus' life. Paul mentions Pilate not at all, beyond a brief mention in the pseudepigraphic 1 Timothy. (Luke does repeat the relevant Pilate mention in Acts.)

When you say "all sources", what you mean is all the sources that still exist.

During the centuries before those particular stories were canonized there were plenty of reasons to whitewash the part played by the Romans. But there's no particular reason to believe that whoever produced the Gospels had detailed accuracy as a goal, or an accurate account of the proceedings.
Quite the contrary.
Tom

The crucifixion is one of the very few facts of Jesus' life that can be inferred with near-certainty. And crucifixion had to be ordered by the Roman governor. But had Jesus, depicted as a man of charity and peace and whose brother James was "just", committed any capital offense? Presumably the "cleansing of the temple" story was based on fact and, with temple authorities complicit in Roman rule, could be viewed as insurrection against Roman authority. Yet it might be logical that Pilate would "find no fault with this just man." A further hint, if true, is that -- contrary to custom -- Pilate allowed Joseph of Arimathea to take the crucified body away.

However, as Tom points out, there was reason to whitewash Romans' role in the crucifixion.
 
You're making a category error.
You are making factual errors. Paul tells us that some early Christians were called "Christians." He goes further and tells us the term was first used in Antioch. Some Christians were Jews; some were not. Christians who were not Jews did not call themselves Jews. Romans may have used the term "Jew" incorrectly -- so what?

Factual errors.

On the topic of factual error, you continue to use the term "Jewish temple" to refer to 1st- and 2nd-century meeting-places. Google suggests this term was first adopted in the nineteenth century AD. That's "nineteenth" with an "N." Do you have evidence that this misuse is not another one of your factual errors?
 
So, why must we assume Jesus had to be another deluded member of any such group, on a Holy Crusade to save "The Chosen People" from the Greek-Roman Menace trying to enslave or exterminate them?
Because that is what he was tried and sentenced to crucifixion for. Whether that was true or not is a different question. But Pilate wouldn't have cared about some Jewish theological squabbling.

Maybe Pilate didn't find the evidence particularly strong and hesitated. Who knows?
Tom

ETA ~Jesus was also important enough to warrant paying a bounty for turning Him in.~
 
You're making a category error.
You are making factual errors. Paul tells us that some early Christians were called "Christians." He goes further and tells us the term was first used in Antioch. Some Christians were Jews; some were not. Christians who were not Jews did not call themselves Jews. Romans may have used the term "Jew" incorrectly -- so what?

Factual errors.

On the topic of factual error, you continue to use the term "Jewish temple" to refer to 1st- and 2nd-century meeting-places. Google suggests this term was first adopted in the nineteenth century AD. That's "nineteenth" with an "N." Do you have evidence that this misuse is not another one of your factual errors?

Lol. For someone being as wrong as you, you sure are persistent. You can just look this up.

The Christian canon was agreed upon ca 320 AD because of certain texts word usage that proved the point the Christian leadership wanted then.

 
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