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Historical Jesus

Which people did the Early Church burn, when? Gas ovens, as you know, were built by Nazis to save capitalism. The American 'Christians', just like the Inquisition fanciers and the witch-hunters were about as Christian as Trump, as you know. It is like looking at Stalinism or Maoism as examples of 'socialism' - a tired old game. I don't suppose you could easily find many Christians anywhere between the time of Constantine and the Reformation, and precious few afterwards - read the New Testament and then examine these chums of yours! - but the Christian period did set certain movements in motion, I suppose. Slavery certainly grew far less common until wage-slavery came in to make it possible again, but I can only say it didn't exist in Britain from Norman times on, or anywhere else much in 'Christendom' until capitalism took over. How come anyone can be brainwashed, you ask. It is the nature of wage-slavery: if you don't control their brains it won't work.
You sound like one of the "nascent Christianity" adherents, nascent Christianity being the pure form of Christianity that was later hijacked. All those Nazis were baptized Christians btw.
Or even sounds a tad like Mahatma Gandhi: “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
 
Iolo said:
Read a myth and then read Mark: if you can't see the difference, you need to take a course in basic literary criticism. Who says he 'was' claimed to be these things? That was part of the later, genuinely mythical, material added to the story a good deal later, typical stuff that develops amongst non-very-bright hero-worshippers.

As opposed to GMark which opens up with the voice of a god booming down out of the sky, followed immediately by this guy going off into the desert to be tempted by the devil. The devil takes him up to a mountain so tall he can see the whole flat earth. :rolleyes: Then he magically heals a paralyzed man and has a conversation with a bunch of demons because ancient people didn't know about insanity and epilepsy. Next he turns morsels into a feast for thousands, a miracle so astounding that his disciples have forgotten all about it two chapters later when he does it again to their astonishment. Dude walks on water, calms storms, heals blindness, leprosy, etc,. Dies to save others, disappears from his grave never to be seen again.

Magic, magic, magic. Maaaaaagic, magic, magic, magic, magic.

Sure is different from Perseus, who flew on a magic winged horse to encounter magic women who shared a single eye but could see the future so he could find the woman whose gaze could turn men into stone. Handy that he could use that head to turn the Krakon into a big old rock just off the coast (which people can still see today by the way, so there's more physical evidence of that miracle to examine than any that Jesus supposedly did).

Big difference. Huuuuuuuuge difference. I see what you mean now. Can't believe I couldn't tell the difference between a myth and the historically accurate account of Jesus preserved inviolate in the gospel of Mark. What was I thinking?
 
I think the Lou Grant methodology of determining historicity applies here. According to Lou Grant methodology "You're born, you live, and you die. And everything in between is just filler."

From that we can know definitively all the necessary facts of Jesus's life, namely that he was born, he lived and he died. And we can know that everything else is just filler.

Now it's all clear. Jesus is historical.
 
We have more evidence for the Jesus miracles than for all the others. Based on objective criteria/data.

Lumpenproletariat has this magic Goldilocks number that represents the sweet spot at which a reported myth becomes believable. One day or one week and it's bullshit. 100 years and it's . . .

There isn't any "one day" or "one week" example. Of a myth event, miracle event, normal historical event -- none of the reported events come to us in a source dated from the same time that the reported event happened. There were no newspapers publishing daily reports of the current events, or weeklies or monthlies. Every source we have for the (alleged) events was written decades later than the event(s) reported.


100 years and it's bullshit. But 70 years, that's the ticket.

No, if we had ONLY ONE source, and this was 70 years after the alleged miracle event, that would probably also be bullshit. Obviously as you change the numbers gradually, the conclusion to draw slowly changes also.

Since the latest account, John, covers the same events and agrees with the synoptics and Paul on some major points, it becomes more credible. But if John was all we had, and there was no earlier source about the Jesus events, it would be difficult to accept the miracle stories as credible.


Nobody would ever lie about something that happened 70 years ago.

Why do you have to use extremist language to make your (incoherent) point?

It would be perfectly reasonable to say that we have more evidence for the miracles of Simon Magus than for Apollonius of Tyana, e.g. Most of the miracles of Simon are recorded in a period of 100-150 years after the events allegedly happened. Perhaps in as many as 3 or 4 sources, prior to 200 AD.

Whereas for Apollonius of Tyana, who lived at about the same time, we have ONLY ONE source giving any such claims, and this source is about 150 years later.

So on the scale of most likely to least likely, ranking just these 3 -- Jesus and Simon Magus and Apollonius of Tyana -- the ranking would put Jesus #1, Simon #2, and Apollonius #3 on the list.

It's a wide gap between #1 and #2, and a narrower gap from #2 to #3:

1. Jesus: 4 (5) sources dated 30-70 years after the reported events;

2. Simon Magus: 3 (4) sources, 100-150 years later;

3. Apollonius: 1 source, 150 years later.

And more names could be added to the list. Such as:

Prometheus: 1 (2) sources, several millions years later;

St. Genevieve: 1 source, 20-50 years later;

Mohammed: 1 source, 200 years later;

Emperor Vespasian: 2 sources, 50-60 years later (but only one event reported);

etc.

And of course the simple list by itself isn't enough to give the whole argument for the conclusions. There are some individual differences or distinctions to point out for them. A major factor to include is that Jesus had a uniquely short career, and no widespread reputation during his life, so that it's difficult to explain how the mythologizing got started, in contrast to all the other names on the list.

But you can list other factors to show how this or that figure stands out from the others, if you have examples. Nothing about the listing is rigged to favor Jesus over the others.

So there are no "magic" or "sweet spot" numbers appearing in this list, but just the shades of grey as you go from the more likely to the less likely cases listed, ranking them according to the known facts or evidence about them.
 
There isn't any "one day" or "one week" example. Of a myth event, miracle event, normal historical event -- none of the reported events come to us in a source dated from the same time that the reported event happened. There were no newspapers publishing daily reports of the current events, or weeklies or monthlies. Every source we have for the (alleged) events was written decades later than the event(s) reported.


100 years and it's bullshit. But 70 years, that's the ticket.

No, if we had ONLY ONE source, and this was 70 years after the alleged miracle event, that would probably also be bullshit. Obviously as you change the numbers gradually, the conclusion to draw slowly changes also.

Since the latest account, John, covers the same events and agrees with the synoptics and Paul on some major points, it becomes more credible. But if John was all we had, and there was no earlier source about the Jesus events, it would be difficult to accept the miracle stories as credible.


Nobody would ever lie about something that happened 70 years ago.

Why do you have to use extremist language to make your (incoherent) point?

It would be perfectly reasonable to say that we have more evidence for the miracles of Simon Magus than for Apollonius of Tyana, e.g. Most of the miracles of Simon are recorded in a period of 100-150 years after the events allegedly happened. Perhaps in as many as 3 or 4 sources, prior to 200 AD.

Whereas for Apollonius of Tyana, who lived at about the same time, we have ONLY ONE source giving any such claims, and this source is about 150 years later.

So on the scale of most likely to least likely, ranking just these 3 -- Jesus and Simon Magus and Apollonius of Tyana -- the ranking would put Jesus #1, Simon #2, and Apollonius #3 on the list.

It's a wide gap between #1 and #2, and a narrower gap from #2 to #3:

1. Jesus: 4 (5) sources dated 30-70 years after the reported events;

2. Simon Magus: 3 (4) sources, 100-150 years later;

3. Apollonius: 1 source, 150 years later.

And more names could be added to the list. Such as:

Prometheus: 1 (2) sources, several millions years later;

St. Genevieve: 1 source, 20-50 years later;

Mohammed: 1 source, 200 years later;

Emperor Vespasian: 2 sources, 50-60 years later (but only one event reported);

etc.

And of course the simple list by itself isn't enough to give the whole argument for the conclusions. There are some individual differences or distinctions to point out for them. A major factor to include is that Jesus had a uniquely short career, and no widespread reputation during his life, so that it's difficult to explain how the mythologizing got started, in contrast to all the other names on the list.

But you can list other factors to show how this or that figure stands out from the others, if you have examples. Nothing about the listing is rigged to favor Jesus over the others.

So there are no "magic" or "sweet spot" numbers appearing in this list, but just the shades of grey as you go from the more likely to the less likely cases listed, ranking them according to the known facts or evidence about them.
There is only one source about jesus: "Q".
the rest is later fanfiction.
 
Q was a collection of sayings. if it exited at all, many of the sayings can be found in GMark. Later gospels had GMark in front of them when writing their versions.
Many of the sayings preceded the supposedly birth of xtianity and a founder. It was Hillel for example who said : "treat others as you would like others to treat you."
 
Iolo said:
Read a myth and then read Mark: if you can't see the difference, you need to take a course in basic literary criticism. Who says he 'was' claimed to be these things? That was part of the later, genuinely mythical, material added to the story a good deal later, typical stuff that develops amongst non-very-bright hero-worshippers.

As opposed to GMark which opens up with the voice of a god booming down out of the sky, followed immediately by this guy going off into the desert to be tempted by the devil. The devil takes him up to a mountain so tall he can see the whole flat earth. :rolleyes: Then he magically heals a paralyzed man and has a conversation with a bunch of demons because ancient people didn't know about insanity and epilepsy. Next he turns morsels into a feast for thousands, a miracle so astounding that his disciples have forgotten all about it two chapters later when he does it again to their astonishment. Dude walks on water, calms storms, heals blindness, leprosy, etc,. Dies to save others, disappears from his grave never to be seen again.

Magic, magic, magic. Maaaaaagic, magic, magic, magic, magic.

Sure is different from Perseus, who flew on a magic winged horse to encounter magic women who shared a single eye but could see the future so he could find the woman whose gaze could turn men into stone. Handy that he could use that head to turn the Krakon into a big old rock just off the coast (which people can still see today by the way, so there's more physical evidence of that miracle to examine than any that Jesus supposedly did).

Big difference. Huuuuuuuuge difference. I see what you mean now. Can't believe I couldn't tell the difference between a myth and the historically accurate account of Jesus preserved inviolate in the gospel of Mark. What was I thinking?

As I said, the myth stuff is addition. I'll see if I can find a critical course on line for you. Very little is known about Jesus' life: but the words have been carefully treasured. Find any equivalent in any real myth, do.
 
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As opposed to GMark which opens up with the voice of a god booming down out of the sky, followed immediately by this guy going off into the desert to be tempted by the devil. The devil takes him up to a mountain so tall he can see the whole flat earth. :rolleyes: Then he magically heals a paralyzed man and has a conversation with a bunch of demons because ancient people didn't know about insanity and epilepsy. Next he turns morsels into a feast for thousands, a miracle so astounding that his disciples have forgotten all about it two chapters later when he does it again to their astonishment. Dude walks on water, calms storms, heals blindness, leprosy, etc,. Dies to save others, disappears from his grave never to be seen again.

Magic, magic, magic. Maaaaaagic, magic, magic, magic, magic.

Sure is different from Perseus, who flew on a magic winged horse to encounter magic women who shared a single eye but could see the future so he could find the woman whose gaze could turn men into stone. Handy that he could use that head to turn the Krakon into a big old rock just off the coast (which people can still see today by the way, so there's more physical evidence of that miracle to examine than any that Jesus supposedly did).

Big difference. Huuuuuuuuge difference. I see what you mean now. Can't believe I couldn't tell the difference between a myth and the historically accurate account of Jesus preserved inviolate in the gospel of Mark. What was I thinking?

As I said, the myth stuff is addition. I'll see if I can find a critical course on line for you. Very little is known about Jesus' life: but the words have been carefully treasured. Find any equivalent in any real myth, do.
What? Do you really believe in that?
 
As I said, the myth stuff is addition. I'll see if I can find a critical course on line for you. Very little is known about Jesus' life: but the words have been carefully treasured. Find any equivalent in any real myth, do.
What? Do you really believe in that?

Obviously, because nobody else had said anything like it. Socialism was a huge idea the religious were only partly ready for, and in those days people paid close attention to words.
 
As opposed to GMark which opens up with the voice of a god booming down out of the sky, followed immediately by this guy going off into the desert to be tempted by the devil. The devil takes him up to a mountain so tall he can see the whole flat earth. :rolleyes: Then he magically heals a paralyzed man and has a conversation with a bunch of demons because ancient people didn't know about insanity and epilepsy. Next he turns morsels into a feast for thousands, a miracle so astounding that his disciples have forgotten all about it two chapters later when he does it again to their astonishment. Dude walks on water, calms storms, heals blindness, leprosy, etc,. Dies to save others, disappears from his grave never to be seen again.

Magic, magic, magic. Maaaaaagic, magic, magic, magic, magic.

Sure is different from Perseus, who flew on a magic winged horse to encounter magic women who shared a single eye but could see the future so he could find the woman whose gaze could turn men into stone. Handy that he could use that head to turn the Krakon into a big old rock just off the coast (which people can still see today by the way, so there's more physical evidence of that miracle to examine than any that Jesus supposedly did).

Big difference. Huuuuuuuuge difference. I see what you mean now. Can't believe I couldn't tell the difference between a myth and the historically accurate account of Jesus preserved inviolate in the gospel of Mark. What was I thinking?

As I said, the myth stuff is addition. I'll see if I can find a critical course on line for you. Very little is known about Jesus' life: but the words have been carefully treasured. Find any equivalent in any real myth, do.

You know what? Fuck that noise. If there's one thing that religions with text traditions have in common it's the claim that their text beats all others hands-down:

  • Quran 17:88 - "If mankind and the jinn gathered in order to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like of it, even if they were to each other assistants."
  • Mormons: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.” (History of the Church, 4:461.)

I'm sure I could find more if I kept digging but these popped off the top of my head.

You're no different, citing some inner appreciation of these magical texts you venerate to the exclusion of others. If there is something objectively different about these texts by all means enlighten us rather than insist that we have to expend useless effort taking some highbrow course just to be able to hope to achieve this elusive level of understanding.

Your appeal to this sort of lame argument is little else than an IOU for an answer.

I might add that it's really a riot that on the one hand we have you arguing for a minimalist approach to an historical nugget and toss out all the miracles while at the same time we have Lumpenproletariat arguing that the miracles are the defining thing that separates these texts from all others, and the very reason to believe them.
 
As I said, the myth stuff is addition. I'll see if I can find a critical course on line for you. Very little is known about Jesus' life: but the words have been carefully treasured. Find any equivalent in any real myth, do.

You know what? Fuck that noise. If there's one thing that religions with text traditions have in common it's the claim that their text beats all others hands-down:

  • Quran 17:88 - "If mankind and the jinn gathered in order to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like of it, even if they were to each other assistants."
  • Mormons: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.” (History of the Church, 4:461.)

I'm sure I could find more if I kept digging but these popped off the top of my head.

You're no different, citing some inner appreciation of these magical texts you venerate to the exclusion of others. If there is something objectively different about these texts by all means enlighten us rather than insist that we have to expend useless effort taking some highbrow course just to be able to hope to achieve this elusive level of understanding.

Your appeal to this sort of lame argument is little else than an IOU for an answer.

I might add that it's really a riot that on the one hand we have you arguing for a minimalist approach to an historical nugget and toss out all the miracles while at the same time we have Lumpenproletariat arguing that the miracles are the defining thing that separates these texts from all others, and the very reason to believe them.

Maybe if Jesus, Muhammed, or ANY of these people who became gods after they died, had been literate and wrote things down in their own hand, we could take at least a little stock in what "they said". Or at least in the idea that they actually said it.
 
You know what? Fuck that noise. If there's one thing that religions with text traditions have in common it's the claim that their text beats all others hands-down:

  • Quran 17:88 - "If mankind and the jinn gathered in order to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like of it, even if they were to each other assistants."
  • Mormons: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.” (History of the Church, 4:461.)

Shouldn't be too difficult to guess as both of these traditions acknowledge Jesus which can't be said of the other way round.
 
You know what? Fuck that noise. If there's one thing that religions with text traditions have in common it's the claim that their text beats all others hands-down:

  • Quran 17:88 - "If mankind and the jinn gathered in order to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like of it, even if they were to each other assistants."
  • Mormons: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.” (History of the Church, 4:461.)

Shouldn't be too difficult to guess as both of these traditions acknowledge Jesus which can't be said of the other way round.

Huh? What shouldn't be too difficult to guess? The Mormons don't recognize the Christian bible as being as "correct" as their book, and Muslim doctrine is quite clear that Jesus was only a prophet, not a god, and to teach otherwise is blasphemy. Jesus didn't acknowledge Moroni from the Mormon tradition, which would predate Jesus by several thousand years. What does any of that have to do with anything?
 
Huh? What shouldn't be too difficult to guess? The Mormons don't recognize the Christian bible as being as "correct" as their book, and Muslim doctrine is quite clear that Jesus was only a prophet, not a god, and to teach otherwise is blasphemy. Jesus didn't acknowledge Moroni from the Mormon tradition, which would predate Jesus by several thousand years. What does any of that have to do with anything?

Yes true , these two came about much much later which is then - a better argument compared to previous debate with Lumpy about a mere 70 years after Christs death to the centuries later newer and different faiths.

The Mormons have 'The Church of "Jesus Christ" of Latter-day Saints' a version of Jesus according to J. Smith and the Muslims accept Jesus born from a virgin birth. Which does sound a little more than just a prophet in the context.

Personally I realised when I was an opposing agnostic to Christians.. Jesus's gospel can't be overwritten and he can't be erased. God is clever!
 
You know what? Fuck that noise. If there's one thing that religions with text traditions have in common it's the claim that their text beats all others hands-down:

  • Quran 17:88 - "If mankind and the jinn gathered in order to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like of it, even if they were to each other assistants."
  • Mormons: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.” (History of the Church, 4:461.)

I'm sure I could find more if I kept digging but these popped off the top of my head.

You're no different, citing some inner appreciation of these magical texts you venerate to the exclusion of others. If there is something objectively different about these texts by all means enlighten us rather than insist that we have to expend useless effort taking some highbrow course just to be able to hope to achieve this elusive level of understanding.

Your appeal to this sort of lame argument is little else than an IOU for an answer.

I might add that it's really a riot that on the one hand we have you arguing for a minimalist approach to an historical nugget and toss out all the miracles while at the same time we have Lumpenproletariat arguing that the miracles are the defining thing that separates these texts from all others, and the very reason to believe them.

Maybe if Jesus, Muhammed, or ANY of these people who became gods after they died, had been literate and wrote things down in their own hand, we could take at least a little stock in what "they said". Or at least in the idea that they actually said it.

Isn't it amazing that an all knowing gawd always chose an illiterate ignoramus to speak through! This on it's own should put any doubts about it not been pure bunkum out of mind.
 
As I said, the myth stuff is addition. I'll see if I can find a critical course on line for you. Very little is known about Jesus' life: but the words have been carefully treasured. Find any equivalent in any real myth, do.

You know what? Fuck that noise. If there's one thing that religions with text traditions have in common it's the claim that their text beats all others hands-down:

  • Quran 17:88 - "If mankind and the jinn gathered in order to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like of it, even if they were to each other assistants."
  • Mormons: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.” (History of the Church, 4:461.)

I'm sure I could find more if I kept digging but these popped off the top of my head.

You're no different, citing some inner appreciation of these magical texts you venerate to the exclusion of others. If there is something objectively different about these texts by all means enlighten us rather than insist that we have to expend useless effort taking some highbrow course just to be able to hope to achieve this elusive level of understanding.

Your appeal to this sort of lame argument is little else than an IOU for an answer.

I might add that it's really a riot that on the one hand we have you arguing for a minimalist approach to an historical nugget and toss out all the miracles while at the same time we have Lumpenproletariat arguing that the miracles are the defining thing that separates these texts from all others, and the very reason to believe them.

I'm afraid you seem to live in a different world and seem to be arguing with someone else entirely. Who do you suppose is discussing the superiority of texts? And. by the way, the Prophet had no ambition to be a god, any more than (I suspect) had Jesus.
 
I'm afraid you seem to live in a different world and seem to be arguing with someone else entirely. Who do you suppose is discussing the superiority of texts? And. by the way, the Prophet had no ambition to be a god, any more than (I suspect) had Jesus.

Jesus is fictional. You can invent all kinds of ambitions in fictional characters.

Who knows what ambitions Mohammed had. I suspect his real motives have been obscured by history. But he was successful. He came from a position of no power and became powerful. And he was wildly successful. We can draw some conclusions from that.

1) He wasn't a fanatic. Fanatics don't make good leaders and don't get shit done. Good leaders is the ointment in an organisation, bridging divides and bringing people together. That requires being sensitive to people's needs as well as capable of thinking on his feet.

2) He was smart. Smart people rarely say straight out. They frame things in ways to help them get stuff they want. They adapt the message depending on the audience.

3) Successful people mostly set short term goals, based on what's feasible, and always have a plan b. They adapt long term goals depending on changing circumstances. I'm sure Mohammed was as surprised as everybody else of his success.
 
Who exactly made up this figure, and what exactly did they get out of it? To deny history is a mug's game unless you have very good reason, and as far as I can see you have none whatever, except the desperate urge to do re-enactment of mid-Nineteenth-Century arguments with long-dead theologians.
 
Who exactly made up this figure, and what exactly did they get out of it? To deny history is a mug's game unless you have very good reason, and as far as I can see you have none whatever, except the desperate urge to do re-enactment of mid-Nineteenth-Century arguments with long-dead theologians.

Even if Jesus was a real person, the chances of him being anything like the Jesus in the Bible is near zero. The only Jesus we know anything about is the Jesus in the Bible, and he is fictional.
 
Who exactly made up this figure, and what exactly did they get out of it? To deny history is a mug's game unless you have very good reason, and as far as I can see you have none whatever, except the desperate urge to do re-enactment of mid-Nineteenth-Century arguments with long-dead theologians.

Even if Jesus was a real person, the chances of him being anything like the Jesus in the Bible is near zero. The only Jesus we know anything about is the Jesus in the Bible, and he is fictional.

He was obviously a real person, and his words are convincingly recorded, because they are nothing like the expected 'religious' guff. End of story.
 
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