• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Home Brewing Wine - small batch

This morning I skimmed off the pureed pawpaw flesh from the 4th batch of must. I feel terrible now for having discarded it as I was in a hurry and only tasted it at the very end. It was absolutely delicious, with the bite of fermentation but still very sweet. It would have made a great dessert or an addition to something else. I'll never discard this part of the process again, it's good food and would have eaten like a fine healthy custard. Reminded me of creme brulee.
 
This morning I skimmed off the pureed pawpaw flesh from the 4th batch of must. I feel terrible now for having discarded it as I was in a hurry and only tasted it at the very end. It was absolutely delicious, with the bite of fermentation but still very sweet. It would have made a great dessert or an addition to something else. I'll never discard this part of the process again, it's good food and would have eaten like a fine healthy custard. Reminded me of creme brulee.

Ah well. Needs must.
 
This morning I skimmed off the pureed pawpaw flesh from the 4th batch of must. I feel terrible now for having discarded it as I was in a hurry and only tasted it at the very end. It was absolutely delicious, with the bite of fermentation but still very sweet. It would have made a great dessert or an addition to something else. I'll never discard this part of the process again, it's good food and would have eaten like a fine healthy custard. Reminded me of creme brulee.

Interesting... If it was a fruit ale you were making, that puree would be mixed with Trub - a tan substance created by the yeast (or maybe it IS dead yeast - I forget).. and would taste like Satan's ass. I guess wine yeast is more like Lager yeast.. bottom feeding?
 
This morning I skimmed off the pureed pawpaw flesh from the 4th batch of must. I feel terrible now for having discarded it as I was in a hurry and only tasted it at the very end. It was absolutely delicious, with the bite of fermentation but still very sweet. It would have made a great dessert or an addition to something else. I'll never discard this part of the process again, it's good food and would have eaten like a fine healthy custard. Reminded me of creme brulee.

Interesting... If it was a fruit ale you were making, that puree would be mixed with Trub - a tan substance created by the yeast (or maybe it IS dead yeast - I forget).. and would taste like Satan's ass. I guess wine yeast is more like Lager yeast.. bottom feeding?

I really don't know who feeds where. Satan's ass...that's funny.

This is the yeast I used:

Lalvin EC-1118 (Prise de Mousse) : This is the original, steady, low foamer, excellent for barrel fermentation or for working on heavy suspended pulps. It is one of the most popular wine yeasts in the world. It ferments well at low temperatures, flocculates well, and produces very compact lees. It is good for Champagne bases, secondary (bottle) fermentations, restarting stuck fermentations, and for late harvest grapes. It is also the yeast of choice for apple, crabapple, cranberry, hawthorn, and cherry wines. It has excellent organoleptic properties and should be in every vinter's refrigerator. Alcohol toxicity is 18% and it ferments relatively fast. It tolerates temperatures from 39-95° F. It is not, however, tolerant of concurrent malolactic fermentation.

Strains of Wine Yeast

I noticed now that it does not tolerate malolactic fermentation, but it says it's a yeast for apple wine. Time will tell as this is an apple wine. Seems okay so far.

When I started the must I pureed several pounds of fresh fruit and mixed it with apple juice, added sugar to get the potential alcohol up, and let that sit for 24 hours before adding the yeast. You're supposed to then stir it once a day for the first five days. When I did the puree was always on top, getting kinda lumpy, and the mixture would fizz like crazy.

This stuff tasted great. Wine vs beer making must be different. Probably the yeast as you say.
 
Doesn't look like you have to worry about it during the primary fermentation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malolactic_fermentation

That's cool. So secondary fermentation by bacteria is what cuts the edge (acidity) off of some of the tarter wines. Never liked acidic wines. I wonder if there is an enzyme that can be added to wines to do something with the malic acid, instead of putting it through secondary fermentation? Say you have a bottle of wine that you want to condition quickly?

The wine snobs I know would consider this "breaking the rules", but I've found "oak flavoring" online too....
 
Doesn't look like you have to worry about it during the primary fermentation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malolactic_fermentation

That's cool. So secondary fermentation by bacteria is what cuts the edge (acidity) off of some of the tarter wines. Never liked acidic wines. I wonder if there is an enzyme that can be added to wines to do something with the malic acid, instead of putting it through secondary fermentation? Say you have a bottle of wine that you want to condition quickly?

The wine snobs I know would consider this "breaking the rules", but I've found "oak flavoring" online too....

At the local brew stores you can buy all kinds of things, including oak chips, I suppose to add to the must to give it oakiness and tannins. This wine-making stuff can get way complicated, which is why I decided early on to keep it simple.

On the 25th I mixed up a 5th batch, which is bubbling away quite nicely. To this batch I added a banana because I read it can impart some nice flavors on a fruit wine.

And while at the brew store I noticed a yeast that is specifically for fruit wines. According to the experts it leaves behind more of the fruity aromas and flavors without sweetening the wine. It doesn't have the same temperature range as the yeast I used so far but I will use it on the next batch to see how it behaves.

The fruit mash that sits on top at primary fermentation is quite tasty. Had some with breakfast the other day. Gave me a slight buzz! Whodda thunkit!
 
Doesn't look like you have to worry about it during the primary fermentation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malolactic_fermentation

That's cool. So secondary fermentation by bacteria is what cuts the edge (acidity) off of some of the tarter wines. Never liked acidic wines. I wonder if there is an enzyme that can be added to wines to do something with the malic acid, instead of putting it through secondary fermentation? Say you have a bottle of wine that you want to condition quickly?

The wine snobs I know would consider this "breaking the rules", but I've found "oak flavoring" online too....

At the local brew stores you can buy all kinds of things, including oak chips, I suppose to add to the must to give it oakiness and tannins. This wine-making stuff can get way complicated, which is why I decided early on to keep it simple.

On the 25th I mixed up a 5th batch, which is bubbling away quite nicely. To this batch I added a banana because I read it can impart some nice flavors on a fruit wine.

And while at the brew store I noticed a yeast that is specifically for fruit wines. According to the experts it leaves behind more of the fruity aromas and flavors without sweetening the wine. It doesn't have the same temperature range as the yeast I used so far but I will use it on the next batch to see how it behaves.

The fruit mash that sits on top at primary fermentation is quite tasty. Had some with breakfast the other day. Gave me a slight buzz! Whodda thunkit!

I am skeptical about adding a banana... at least, with Ale, if you ferment at higher than ideal temperatures, you end up with "fruity esters" being left behind. This is considered an "off flavor" by most judges. It is a banana flavor. One exception to the "off flavor" rule is when it is done on purpose to make an Ale called "Banna Bread". It is a seasonal brew in a Belgium style. Intentionally brewed warm, it comes out really tasting like banana. So, if having fruity esters in a fruit wine is a good thing, then don't "cheat" by adding banana flavor, let the yeast produce those esters naturally.
 
Doesn't look like you have to worry about it during the primary fermentation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malolactic_fermentation

That's cool. So secondary fermentation by bacteria is what cuts the edge (acidity) off of some of the tarter wines. Never liked acidic wines. I wonder if there is an enzyme that can be added to wines to do something with the malic acid, instead of putting it through secondary fermentation? Say you have a bottle of wine that you want to condition quickly?

The wine snobs I know would consider this "breaking the rules", but I've found "oak flavoring" online too....

At the local brew stores you can buy all kinds of things, including oak chips, I suppose to add to the must to give it oakiness and tannins. This wine-making stuff can get way complicated, which is why I decided early on to keep it simple.

On the 25th I mixed up a 5th batch, which is bubbling away quite nicely. To this batch I added a banana because I read it can impart some nice flavors on a fruit wine.

And while at the brew store I noticed a yeast that is specifically for fruit wines. According to the experts it leaves behind more of the fruity aromas and flavors without sweetening the wine. It doesn't have the same temperature range as the yeast I used so far but I will use it on the next batch to see how it behaves.

The fruit mash that sits on top at primary fermentation is quite tasty. Had some with breakfast the other day. Gave me a slight buzz! Whodda thunkit!

I am skeptical about adding a banana... at least, with Ale, if you ferment at higher than ideal temperatures, you end up with "fruity esters" being left behind. This is considered an "off flavor" by most judges. It is a banana flavor. One exception to the "off flavor" rule is when it is done on purpose to make an Ale called "Banna Bread". It is a seasonal brew in a Belgium style. Intentionally brewed warm, it comes out really tasting like banana. So, if having fruity esters in a fruit wine is a good thing, then don't "cheat" by adding banana flavor, let the yeast produce those esters naturally.
I agree. Do not use bananas to add banana flavor because bananas produce banana flavored compounds unnaturally.
 
Doesn't look like you have to worry about it during the primary fermentation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malolactic_fermentation

That's cool. So secondary fermentation by bacteria is what cuts the edge (acidity) off of some of the tarter wines. Never liked acidic wines. I wonder if there is an enzyme that can be added to wines to do something with the malic acid, instead of putting it through secondary fermentation? Say you have a bottle of wine that you want to condition quickly?

The wine snobs I know would consider this "breaking the rules", but I've found "oak flavoring" online too....

At the local brew stores you can buy all kinds of things, including oak chips, I suppose to add to the must to give it oakiness and tannins. This wine-making stuff can get way complicated, which is why I decided early on to keep it simple.

On the 25th I mixed up a 5th batch, which is bubbling away quite nicely. To this batch I added a banana because I read it can impart some nice flavors on a fruit wine.

And while at the brew store I noticed a yeast that is specifically for fruit wines. According to the experts it leaves behind more of the fruity aromas and flavors without sweetening the wine. It doesn't have the same temperature range as the yeast I used so far but I will use it on the next batch to see how it behaves.

The fruit mash that sits on top at primary fermentation is quite tasty. Had some with breakfast the other day. Gave me a slight buzz! Whodda thunkit!

I am skeptical about adding a banana... at least, with Ale, if you ferment at higher than ideal temperatures, you end up with "fruity esters" being left behind. This is considered an "off flavor" by most judges. It is a banana flavor. One exception to the "off flavor" rule is when it is done on purpose to make an Ale called "Banna Bread". It is a seasonal brew in a Belgium style. Intentionally brewed warm, it comes out really tasting like banana. So, if having fruity esters in a fruit wine is a good thing, then don't "cheat" by adding banana flavor, let the yeast produce those esters naturally.

I have heard about fermenting at too high temperatures and how it negatively affects the final product. That will certainly never be a problem as my cellar in the hottest of summer never goes over 70 degrees. The five batches I've done so far are all doing their thing at 55 to 68 degrees.

Didn't know about the banana but have definitely heard of off flavors, which I suspect being a newbie I will encounter. But that's okay because I plan on enjoying the product at home and with close friends. Definitely no plans to compete. And doing everything organically presents its own challenges. It's easier using the chemicals but I've chosen not to do so. Judging from the early results I think we'll be okay.

We've been wine-making for a lot longer than we've had all the chemicals so maybe off tastes are part of what people have always experienced with wine. I like the wines that are made with chemicals but have also tasted home brews from friends and found them very satisfying, even with off tastes. I'm probably old fashioned that way.
 
I am skeptical about adding a banana... at least, with Ale, if you ferment at higher than ideal temperatures, you end up with "fruity esters" being left behind. This is considered an "off flavor" by most judges. It is a banana flavor. One exception to the "off flavor" rule is when it is done on purpose to make an Ale called "Banna Bread". It is a seasonal brew in a Belgium style. Intentionally brewed warm, it comes out really tasting like banana. So, if having fruity esters in a fruit wine is a good thing, then don't "cheat" by adding banana flavor, let the yeast produce those esters naturally.

I have heard about fermenting at too high temperatures and how it negatively affects the final product. That will certainly never be a problem as my cellar in the hottest of summer never goes over 70 degrees. The five batches I've done so far are all doing their thing at 55 to 68 degrees.

Didn't know about the banana but have definitely heard of off flavors, which I suspect being a newbie I will encounter. But that's okay because I plan on enjoying the product at home and with close friends. Definitely no plans to compete. And doing everything organically presents its own challenges. It's easier using the chemicals but I've chosen not to do so. Judging from the early results I think we'll be okay.

We've been wine-making for a lot longer than we've had all the chemicals so maybe off tastes are part of what people have always experienced with wine. I like the wines that are made with chemicals but have also tasted home brews from friends and found them very satisfying, even with off tastes. I'm probably old fashioned that way.

'Organic' is a largely meaningless marketing term; it certainly doesn't imply 'produced without the use of pesticides or fertilisers', as most produce marketed as 'organic' is produced using plenty of pesticides and fertilisers.

Every single ingredient in ANY wine (or beer, or spirit) is a chemical - including the water.

There's no problem in trying to make wine or beer the 'old fashioned' way, using the minimum possible number of ingredients; I make most of my beer that way. But don't kid yourself - the ethanol in wine ('organic' or not) is by several orders of magnitude the most toxic component present, and is a known carcinogen. Any other chemicals that are present in a remotely drinkable final product are completely harmless in comparison.
 
I am skeptical about adding a banana... at least, with Ale, if you ferment at higher than ideal temperatures, you end up with "fruity esters" being left behind. This is considered an "off flavor" by most judges. It is a banana flavor. One exception to the "off flavor" rule is when it is done on purpose to make an Ale called "Banna Bread". It is a seasonal brew in a Belgium style. Intentionally brewed warm, it comes out really tasting like banana. So, if having fruity esters in a fruit wine is a good thing, then don't "cheat" by adding banana flavor, let the yeast produce those esters naturally.

I have heard about fermenting at too high temperatures and how it negatively affects the final product. That will certainly never be a problem as my cellar in the hottest of summer never goes over 70 degrees. The five batches I've done so far are all doing their thing at 55 to 68 degrees.

Didn't know about the banana but have definitely heard of off flavors, which I suspect being a newbie I will encounter. But that's okay because I plan on enjoying the product at home and with close friends. Definitely no plans to compete. And doing everything organically presents its own challenges. It's easier using the chemicals but I've chosen not to do so. Judging from the early results I think we'll be okay.

We've been wine-making for a lot longer than we've had all the chemicals so maybe off tastes are part of what people have always experienced with wine. I like the wines that are made with chemicals but have also tasted home brews from friends and found them very satisfying, even with off tastes. I'm probably old fashioned that way.

'Organic' is a largely meaningless marketing term; it certainly doesn't imply 'produced without the use of pesticides or fertilisers', as most produce marketed as 'organic' is produced using plenty of pesticides and fertilisers.

Every single ingredient in ANY wine (or beer, or spirit) is a chemical - including the water.

There's no problem in trying to make wine or beer the 'old fashioned' way, using the minimum possible number of ingredients; I make most of my beer that way. But don't kid yourself - the ethanol in wine ('organic' or not) is by several orders of magnitude the most toxic component present, and is a known carcinogen. Any other chemicals that are present in a remotely drinkable final product are completely harmless in comparison.

Good to know, and as I would suspect.

You are a beer maker and I am guessing you have crossed a few hurdles. Anything stand out as worth passing along?
 
'Organic' is a largely meaningless marketing term; it certainly doesn't imply 'produced without the use of pesticides or fertilisers', as most produce marketed as 'organic' is produced using plenty of pesticides and fertilisers.

Every single ingredient in ANY wine (or beer, or spirit) is a chemical - including the water.

There's no problem in trying to make wine or beer the 'old fashioned' way, using the minimum possible number of ingredients; I make most of my beer that way. But don't kid yourself - the ethanol in wine ('organic' or not) is by several orders of magnitude the most toxic component present, and is a known carcinogen. Any other chemicals that are present in a remotely drinkable final product are completely harmless in comparison.

Good to know, and as I would suspect.

You are a beer maker and I am guessing you have crossed a few hurdles. Anything stand out as worth passing along?
It's really not rocket science; People have been brewing since the invention of agriculture, and making a passable beer is do-able for almost anyone.

To make a really good beer, I would suggest that the three key elements are temperature control, patience, and cleanliness. (And obviously high quality ingredients, which should go without saying).

Cool the boiled wort as fast as possible once the boil has finished; and ensure that fermentation takes place as close as possible to the optimum temperature for your yeast (in my experience, the bottom of the advertised temperature range from the yeast supplier is better than the middle in terms of the final flavour, but it is also slower).

Colder temperatures mean lower rates of fermentation, so don't be in a hurry - let the fermentation complete, and use a hygrometer to confirm that it has, before bottling or kegging - if there's still a lot of activity, bottles can become bombs; But even if there's only a little attenuation still to go, the CO2 bubbles can help break up the trub and hold it in suspension, leading to cloudy beer (or excessive sediment in the bottle). Don't be in a hurry to drink the beer once it's bottled/kegged either - a few weeks of maturing can make a big difference to quality. If temperatures fall below the target range, your total fermenting time can increase very significantly; Too high a temperature can easily ruin the final result, so erring on the side of too cold is better than the opposite. If the temperature goes close to freezing, then the yeast may die and need to be re-pitched after the temperature comes back up. Avoid large changes in temperature during primary fermentation. Always keep beer (during and after fermenting) in a dark place, and avoid even indirect exposure to bright light.

Sterilize everything that will come in contact with your beer post-boil. Simply immersing everything in boiling water for five minutes will do the job (although a no-rinse sterilizer like Star San is more convenient) - but it must be clean before sterilizing, or bugs will shelter in the dirt. Clean everything immediately AFTER use; Sterilize everything immediately BEFORE use.
 
'Organic' is a largely meaningless marketing term; it certainly doesn't imply 'produced without the use of pesticides or fertilisers', as most produce marketed as 'organic' is produced using plenty of pesticides and fertilisers.

Every single ingredient in ANY wine (or beer, or spirit) is a chemical - including the water.

There's no problem in trying to make wine or beer the 'old fashioned' way, using the minimum possible number of ingredients; I make most of my beer that way. But don't kid yourself - the ethanol in wine ('organic' or not) is by several orders of magnitude the most toxic component present, and is a known carcinogen. Any other chemicals that are present in a remotely drinkable final product are completely harmless in comparison.

Good to know, and as I would suspect.

You are a beer maker and I am guessing you have crossed a few hurdles. Anything stand out as worth passing along?
It's really not rocket science; People have been brewing since the invention of agriculture, and making a passable beer is do-able for almost anyone.

To make a really good beer, I would suggest that the three key elements are temperature control, patience, and cleanliness. (And obviously high quality ingredients, which should go without saying).

Cool the boiled wort as fast as possible once the boil has finished; and ensure that fermentation takes place as close as possible to the optimum temperature for your yeast (in my experience, the bottom of the advertised temperature range from the yeast supplier is better than the middle in terms of the final flavour, but it is also slower).

Colder temperatures mean lower rates of fermentation, so don't be in a hurry - let the fermentation complete, and use a hygrometer to confirm that it has, before bottling or kegging - if there's still a lot of activity, bottles can become bombs; But even if there's only a little attenuation still to go, the CO2 bubbles can help break up the trub and hold it in suspension, leading to cloudy beer (or excessive sediment in the bottle). Don't be in a hurry to drink the beer once it's bottled/kegged either - a few weeks of maturing can make a big difference to quality. If temperatures fall below the target range, your total fermenting time can increase very significantly; Too high a temperature can easily ruin the final result, so erring on the side of too cold is better than the opposite. If the temperature goes close to freezing, then the yeast may die and need to be re-pitched after the temperature comes back up. Avoid large changes in temperature during primary fermentation. Always keep beer (during and after fermenting) in a dark place, and avoid even indirect exposure to bright light.

Sterilize everything that will come in contact with your beer post-boil. Simply immersing everything in boiling water for five minutes will do the job (although a no-rinse sterilizer like Star San is more convenient) - but it must be clean before sterilizing, or bugs will shelter in the dirt. Clean everything immediately AFTER use; Sterilize everything immediately BEFORE use.

I agree with everything here but would like to emphasize one part of it.... Patience.
It is so terribly easy to fool yourself into thinking your brew is done weeks before it is.
It really does not take long to make Ale, 2 to 6 weeks depending on the recipe. longer for fancier stuff that no one should be starting out doing. Regardless, those last few days are key.... It can never hurt to let it sit jut a little longer. You can't "over-ferment", but you sure can under do it. Don't listen to old people that talk about "autolysis" of the yeast. They are remembering the old days before a billion different kinds of Ale yeast became commercially available, and people had to use baker's yeast to homebrew.. and if your beer sat on top of that yeast that we never intended to produce beer for too long, it can get bad tasting. So, don't use bread yeast and don't forget about your beer for over a year, and autolysis will never be a problem.

Be patient. Let it happen.

oh, and take joy in WATCHING your beer grow:

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlsLUykd1Rw[/YOUTUBE]

The motion you see is due to temperature convection currents formed by the biological activity of the yeast.
The chunks of matter floating around are "islands" of yeast... clumped together having an orgy, and dislodged trub.
The layer of tan stuff at the bottom of the fermenter is "trub" (pronounced "troob", I think). Dead or sleeping yeast.
The foam at the top is active yeast.

Fermentation is nearly done when there are no more bubbles (CO2 being produced), no more swirling activity, the foam at the top has gone flat, AND you measure the specific gravity of the beer and see that you have attained the expected alcohol content.
 
That vid is not so different than what I see, just a tad more active. I see that activity mainly when I rack off from the primary fermenter. Things are quite violent for a while and I've had to clean out the airlock a couple times. It's the additional oxygen I guess.

In future brews I plan to add a yeast nutrient because it seems everyone recommends it. But I don't want to start making factory wine at home, if you know what I mean.

The next batch will have some honey. For whatever reason the melomel stuff seems to ferment out much more quickly, which I like.

This morning I ate the last of the still fermenting fruit that I pulled off the last batch and have kept in the fridge. That is good stuff, quite a kick. I'm guessing that is not possible with beer, guessing it tastes like crap.
 
Last edited:
I racked batch 5 off the primary fermenter because it was not fermenting anymore. I think that was a classic case of a stuck fermentation. Decided to have a look in the cellar and cracked the cap. Went fizzing like crazy and still is. This can happen when oxygen is reintroduced so it will ferment further, hopefully until it's dry. Good thing.

But it's only 45 degrees down there. Must be damn good yeast.
 
I racked batch 5 off the primary fermenter because it was not fermenting anymore. I think that was a classic case of a stuck fermentation. Decided to have a look in the cellar and cracked the cap. Went fizzing like crazy and still is. This can happen when oxygen is reintroduced so it will ferment further, hopefully until it's dry. Good thing.

But it's only 45 degrees down there. Must be damn good yeast.

Many yeasts are happy at 7°C; I usually ferment my Czech style Pilsner at 9°C with W34/70 (Weihenstephan) yeast. It's very happy with such low temperatures. You just need to give it a little time.
 
In future brews I plan to add a yeast nutrient because it seems everyone recommends it. But I don't want to start making factory wine at home, if you know what I mean.

Ya, I know what you mean... The yeast for brewing beer that comes in "smack packs" has nutrient in the pack.... it is actually the nutrient that you break open by "smacking" it, and the outer package expands as CO2 is generated by the now-awake yeast... just ring the dinner bell and they jump right into work.

You want your yeast to be happy so they are productive.. it's no different than giving plants nutrients. The question is, do you feed them miracle grow chemicals, or organically-sourced material with naturally occurring micro-nutrients?

Same with your yeast... either the mash (beer or wine) has the correct sugars and such to make the yeast happy, or you need to add something so that they are happy. For beer, if you are making the cheapest, crappiest Budweiser clone out of DME (Dry Malt Extract). then the yeast is not going to be very well fed on that alone. If you are making a nice medium-gravity ale with various barley malts, then the yeast will likely get the variety of nutrients they need to do a good job.
 
I racked batch 5 off the primary fermenter because it was not fermenting anymore. I think that was a classic case of a stuck fermentation. Decided to have a look in the cellar and cracked the cap. Went fizzing like crazy and still is. This can happen when oxygen is reintroduced so it will ferment further, hopefully until it's dry. Good thing.

But it's only 45 degrees down there. Must be damn good yeast.

some of the renewed activity you see after racking is due to the physical churning up of material... it wakes them up a bit... Also, CO2 gets trapped within the trub / must / yeast islands / mash... and the churning up releases it.
 
For any potential home brewing enthusiasts I wanted to say that the yeast nutrient worked as promised. All fermentation was done after two weeks. The previous two batches are still fermenting.

Next batch will have some rhubarb from last year's harvest, honey, pawpaw and probably apple or grape juice.
 
Back
Top Bottom