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House Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy’s family benefited from U.S. program for minorities based on disputed ancestry

I don't think "affirmative action" really seems the culprit; it's fairly apparent to me that the problem here is that there's no means testing on the program...

Means testing makes zero difference with regards to affirmative action. The criteria isn't income/wealth based but opportunity based where opportunity is doled out on the basis of (white)race, ethnicity (European), religion (Judeo-Christian), gender (male) and sexual orientation (cis straight). I'm sure I'm leaving something out but I've had a day and I'm cutting myself that break.

Well, as regards this kind of program, I think means testing would make a huge difference.

I know your post was a joke (it was a good one), but I'm going to have to point out that as regards company contracts, means testing probably could make a pretty big impact. A contract for native American contractors doesn't help much if the contractors selected are already large in the space.
 
There are two groups that attack affirmative action.

One is the racists.

However, there are also those of us who do not believe that the answer to discrimination is more discrimination. You are unfairly lumping us with the racists.

Exactly this.
I think affirmative action was absolutely needed half a century ago. But now, it's more of a drag than a benefit. It is racial discrimination.
Tom

You mean, half a century ago, when you were a kid and it wouldn't affect you directly.

I really wish that it were not needed any more but it takes more time than half a century to change the hearts and minds of those in power.

Rather I think it takes more than merely time. The cold embrace of the grave is more often what it takes.
 
I don't think "affirmative action" really seems the culprit; it's fairly apparent to me that the problem here is that there's no means testing on the program...

Means testing makes zero difference with regards to affirmative action. The criteria isn't income/wealth based but opportunity based where opportunity is doled out on the basis of (white)race, ethnicity (European), religion (Judeo-Christian), gender (male) and sexual orientation (cis straight). I'm sure I'm leaving something out but I've had a day and I'm cutting myself that break.

Well, as regards this kind of program, I think means testing would make a huge difference.

I know your post was a joke (it was a good one), but I'm going to have to point out that as regards company contracts, means testing probably could make a pretty big impact. A contract for native American contractors doesn't help much if the contractors selected are already large in the space.

Ah, I get your point now.
 
You mean, half a century ago, when you were a kid and it wouldn't affect you directly.

I really wish that it were not needed any more but it takes more time than half a century to change the hearts and minds of those in power.

Rather I think it takes more than merely time. The cold embrace of the grave is more often what it takes.

It definitely takes more than just people with old fashioned racist ideas passing on to the grave. If nothing else, the past 12 years have amply demonstrated that there are fresh new generations of racists. I saw plenty of young/middle aged people at Trump rallies (on screens /images only--never had any interest in going in person. I grew up with enough of that shit that it made me sick when I was a kid. I don't need it now either) and certainly the COVID19 deniers (and anti-vaxers in general) are mostly filled with younger people. By that, I mean all of those post Boomers. We boomers got to experience things like measles, mumps and chickenpox and pertussis. We were lucky there were vaccines against polio and smallpox when we were kids and we darn well made sure our kids didn't have to go through what we did as kids. I'm not saying there are zero oldsters who are in general anti-vax. Every generation has its share of idiots but the advent of the internet has made access to a lot of information and disinformation but has not improved upon people's ability to discern the difference. Instead, it has provided a lot of economic opportunity for those who want to exploit those who do not understand as much as they think they do. You know, all of those people who think they've 'done their research' because they have read something on the internet without being able to tell the difference between some yahoo and a refereed journal article, or the relative value of each. A lot of people are very overconfident of their abilities to understand what is and is not science, or evidence or valid medical opinion. Along with truth, justice and the American way...
 
There are two groups that attack affirmative action.

One is the racists.

However, there are also those of us who do not believe that the answer to discrimination is more discrimination. You are unfairly lumping us with the racists.

Exactly this.
I think affirmative action was absolutely needed half a century ago. But now, it's more of a drag than a benefit. It is racial discrimination.
Tom
If it is racism now, then it was racism half a century ago as well. Like many people through the centuries, you've got your reasons. Racism is fine with you.

Of course, whether AA is racist depends on how it is actually implemented. There is no logical reason to think AA is necessarily racist.
 
What you're supporting here in this thread is racism.

Like many people through the centuries, you've got your reasons. Racism is fine with you. But that's what you're doing.
Supporting racism.
Tom

Nope. Racism is prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized. Affirmative action is an attempt to somewhat level the playing field for minority groups who traditionally have less access to jobs, education, government contracts, etc.

These days affirmative action ends up making it easy for blacks that would have made it anyway, while doing almost nothing for those who actually are behind. Quit looking at averages, look at individuals!
 
There are two groups that attack affirmative action.

One is the racists.

However, there are also those of us who do not believe that the answer to discrimination is more discrimination. You are unfairly lumping us with the racists.

Nah, you just believe that there is no racism except for affirmative action and that if minorities and underserved groups can't catch up to the 400 year old lead white christian males have, then it's their fault and a reflection of their 'culture.' With no recognition of the white 'culture' of racism and discrimination.

I don't believe there is no racism. I believe in most situations there is not enough racism to actually be an important hindrance. Everyone encounters obstacles in life, encountering an obstacle isn't a show-stopper.
 
There are two groups that attack affirmative action.

One is the racists.

However, there are also those of us who do not believe that the answer to discrimination is more discrimination. You are unfairly lumping us with the racists.

Nah, you just believe that there is no racism except for affirmative action and that if minorities and underserved groups can't catch up to the 400 year old lead white christian males have, then it's their fault and a reflection of their 'culture.' With no recognition of the white 'culture' of racism and discrimination.

I don't believe there is no racism. I believe in most situations there is not enough racism to actually be an important hindrance. Everyone encounters obstacles in life, encountering an obstacle isn't a show-stopper.

And again with conflation between "racism" and "systemic racism". It very much is an "important hinderance" when white people have a much higher chance of finding a relative that can bail them out and help out with a lawyer and black people generally end up with a public defender who guilty pleas them right into prison.

There's no racism there. There is a LOT of systemic racism.
 
There are two groups that attack affirmative action.

One is the racists.

However, there are also those of us who do not believe that the answer to discrimination is more discrimination. You are unfairly lumping us with the racists.

Exactly this.
I think affirmative action was absolutely needed half a century ago. But now, it's more of a drag than a benefit. It is racial discrimination.
Tom
If it is racism now, then it was racism half a century ago as well. Like many people through the centuries, you've got your reasons. Racism is fine with you.

Of course, whether AA is racist depends on how it is actually implemented. There is no logical reason to think AA is necessarily racist.

"Outreach" means very little these days. AA is racist, period.

And nobody's denying there was a lot of racism half a century ago--you're attacking a strawman.
 
If it is racism now, then it was racism half a century ago as well. Like many people through the centuries, you've got your reasons. Racism is fine with you.

Of course, whether AA is racist depends on how it is actually implemented. There is no logical reason to think AA is necessarily racist.

"Outreach" means very little these days. AA is racist, period.
You do realize your response is a confirmation my earlier observation about the unwitting enabling racists because it rebuts nothing I wrote.
And nobody's denying there was a lot of racism half a century ago--you're attacking a strawman.
If you read my comment in the context of a direct response to the quoted material, you'd realize your comment has no point.
 
If it is racism now, then it was racism half a century ago as well. Like many people through the centuries, you've got your reasons. Racism is fine with you.

Of course, whether AA is racist depends on how it is actually implemented. There is no logical reason to think AA is necessarily racist.

"Outreach" means very little these days. AA is racist, period.

And nobody's denying there was a lot of racism half a century ago--you're attacking a strawman.

The problem is that there is still significant racism, even in some pretty liberal states, such as where I live. I've heard substitute teachers refer to a child who was Native American as a dirty Indian; I've heard disgusting language directed towards Asian immigrant children and their families amongst families of a youth soccer game, FFS. I've heard well educated, intelligent and even thoughtful people say some pretty awful things about Somali immigrants---and some pretty terrible things about African Americans who were probably descended from enslaved people--in my workplace. One woman quit because of the racism she faced. I thought she was being over sensitive or exaggerating--until I heard what her co-worker had to say about her. The racist co-worker? She definitely doesn't see herself as racist and she's really good at her job. I actually like her--but my esteem definitely dropped. In my town, as long as I've lived here, whenever there were black people who moved to the community, the immediate assumption was that they were gang bangers from Chicago. My daughter's friend's mother is Korean and the daughter heard a lot of very, very ugly racist stuff at the high school--and administration just shrugged--which is exactly what they did when the same group of people targeted some of the nerdier kids (one of mine among them) for some nasty stuff. In that case, the administration was 'afraid' that the nerds would retaliate by going Columbine and assumed that would be the problem. In the meantime, absolutely nothing was done about the nasty bullies who targeted minorities and nerds. And of course, girls were/are always fair game. I wish it were different than when I was in school decades ago but the only difference is that there are actually persons of color in this community, unlike the one where I spent most of my school years.

It's not just at high schools or grade schools but in every employment situation, in law enforcement, at universities. Again, I live in a fairly liberal state with a higher than average level of education and higher than average per capita income, high home ownership--amongst every group except black people. Oh, and there's some pretty nasty stuff always directed towards Native Americans. A couple of my friends are NA women, married to white men, who spent most of their lives downplaying their heritage--something that has only recently changed as hey openly acknowledge their heritage and have applied for/been given tribal membership. Most of my friends are well educated people, many who hold advanced degrees and teach at the university. Those who are not white have not been immune to racism nor have their kids, born and raised here. Disgusting doesn't half touch it.

I find it exhausting and I'm about as white bread all American mid-western as they come. I never have had to worry about being stopped by the police. Indeed, I look so girl next door/mom or grandma next door that I don't even get tickets. Every parent worries about their kids but I've never had to worry that mine would be shot by the police because the police 'thought they saw something.' I can only begin to imagine if I were actually a minority.

I really wish racism were finished 50 years ago.

It's not.
 
If it is racism now, then it was racism half a century ago as well. Like many people through the centuries, you've got your reasons. Racism is fine with you.

Of course, whether AA is racist depends on how it is actually implemented. There is no logical reason to think AA is necessarily racist.

"Outreach" means very little these days. AA is racist, period.

And nobody's denying there was a lot of racism half a century ago--you're attacking a strawman.

The problem is that there is still significant racism, even in some pretty liberal states, such as where I live. I've heard substitute teachers refer to a child who was Native American as a dirty Indian; I've heard disgusting language directed towards Asian immigrant children and their families amongst families of a youth soccer game, FFS. I've heard well educated, intelligent and even thoughtful people say some pretty awful things about Somali immigrants---and some pretty terrible things about African Americans who were probably descended from enslaved people--in my workplace. One woman quit because of the racism she faced. I thought she was being over sensitive or exaggerating--until I heard what her co-worker had to say about her. The racist co-worker? She definitely doesn't see herself as racist and she's really good at her job. I actually like her--but my esteem definitely dropped. In my town, as long as I've lived here, whenever there were black people who moved to the community, the immediate assumption was that they were gang bangers from Chicago. My daughter's friend's mother is Korean and the daughter heard a lot of very, very ugly racist stuff at the high school--and administration just shrugged--which is exactly what they did when the same group of people targeted some of the nerdier kids (one of mine among them) for some nasty stuff. In that case, the administration was 'afraid' that the nerds would retaliate by going Columbine and assumed that would be the problem. In the meantime, absolutely nothing was done about the nasty bullies who targeted minorities and nerds. And of course, girls were/are always fair game. I wish it were different than when I was in school decades ago but the only difference is that there are actually persons of color in this community, unlike the one where I spent most of my school years.

It's not just at high schools or grade schools but in every employment situation, in law enforcement, at universities. Again, I live in a fairly liberal state with a higher than average level of education and higher than average per capita income, high home ownership--amongst every group except black people. Oh, and there's some pretty nasty stuff always directed towards Native Americans. A couple of my friends are NA women, married to white men, who spent most of their lives downplaying their heritage--something that has only recently changed as hey openly acknowledge their heritage and have applied for/been given tribal membership. Most of my friends are well educated people, many who hold advanced degrees and teach at the university. Those who are not white have not been immune to racism nor have their kids, born and raised here. Disgusting doesn't half touch it.

I find it exhausting and I'm about as white bread all American mid-western as they come. I never have had to worry about being stopped by the police. Indeed, I look so girl next door/mom or grandma next door that I don't even get tickets. Every parent worries about their kids but I've never had to worry that mine would be shot by the police because the police 'thought they saw something.' I can only begin to imagine if I were actually a minority.

I really wish racism were finished 50 years ago.

It's not.

And let's be clear: this is just the overt racism, the small stuff. It doesn't even begin to address the impacts of community deprivation, of what happens not because of a person's intelligence or drive but merely because they, unlike their white peers, don't have a lot of friends or family that can help them out when times get rough: It barely even touches on the systemic problems.
 
Racism is prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.

The bolded part is exactly the definition I'm using, and have used consistently throughout the various TFT threads.

The unbolded part I agree with also. But the key word is "typically". Affirmative Action is clearly different. The powerful white majority instituted broad and pervasive systemic racism, in order to better things for the weak, black, minority. I'm glad, and I believe it worked.

But it's still systemic racism, and has a bunch of downsides. 50+ years later I think that the downsides now outweigh the positives.
Tom
 
The problem is that there is still significant racism, even in some pretty liberal states, such as where I live. I've heard substitute teachers refer to a child who was Native American as a dirty Indian; I've heard disgusting language directed towards Asian immigrant children and their families amongst families of a youth soccer game, FFS.

The point is not that there is no racism, but that there isn't enough racism to hold people back. Being called a dirty Indian isn't going to keep you from getting an education. Bad things happen to everybody.

It's not just at high schools or grade schools but in every employment situation, in law enforcement, at universities. Again, I live in a fairly liberal state with a higher than average level of education and higher than average per capita income, high home ownership--amongst every group except black people. Oh, and there's some pretty nasty stuff always directed towards Native Americans. A couple of my friends are NA women, married to white men, who spent most of their lives downplaying their heritage--something that has only recently changed as hey openly acknowledge their heritage and have applied for/been given tribal membership. Most of my friends are well educated people, many who hold advanced degrees and teach at the university. Those who are not white have not been immune to racism nor have their kids, born and raised here. Disgusting doesn't half touch it.

Not in every employment situation. Such racism will have little effect unless a large portion of employers engage in it--and note that if that were happening it would result in the race(s) being discriminated against getting less and thus being a great deal for those businesses that don't discriminate.

On the other hand, if you're committing the standard error of equating disparate results to discrimination you might think it's everybody.

I find it exhausting and I'm about as white bread all American mid-western as they come. I never have had to worry about being stopped by the police. Indeed, I look so girl next door/mom or grandma next door that I don't even get tickets. Every parent worries about their kids but I've never had to worry that mine would be shot by the police because the police 'thought they saw something.' I can only begin to imagine if I were actually a minority.

I really wish racism were finished 50 years ago.

It's not.

The issue of getting shot by police is way overblown. The number of unarmed people shot by the police is very low and most of those involved people trying to take the cop's gun.

It's the George Floyds that are the issue, not the Michael Browns.
 
The issue of getting shot by police is way overblown. The number of unarmed people shot by the police is very low and most of those involved people trying to take the cop's gun.

The police are a lot more militant than they used to be. I don't find that surprising, given all the drugs and guns and general attitude of "FUCK you pigs!" across the board.

That said though, back around 2000 when I was on the board of the local NAACP the issues of YBM and cops became a thing, here locally. A common attitude amongst other board members was something along the lines of "The problem between YBM and the cops isn't the cops. It's no account fathers. Guys who think making a baby means they're a man. It doesn't! Any fool can make a baby. Real men take care of their babies."
Statistics backed them up strongly. About 2/3rds of black kids were born to single mothers. About 1/4 of white kids were. Boys raised by single moms are at a huge disadvantage, regardless of race.
Tom
 
The issue of getting shot by police is way overblown. The number of unarmed people shot by the police is very low and most of those involved people trying to take the cop's gun.

The police are a lot more militant than they used to be. I don't find that surprising, given all the drugs and guns and general attitude of "FUCK you pigs!" across the board.

That said though, back around 2000 when I was on the board of the local NAACP the issues of YBM and cops became a thing, here locally. A common attitude amongst other board members was something along the lines of "The problem between YBM and the cops isn't the cops. It's no account fathers. Guys who think making a baby means they're a man. It doesn't! Any fool can make a baby. Real men take care of their babies."
Statistics backed them up strongly. About 2/3rds of black kids were born to single mothers. About 1/4 of white kids were. Boys raised by single moms are at a huge disadvantage, regardless of race.
Tom

Your local NAACP must have been trash. What else could they be for basing their opinions on a flawed view of available statistics? My understanding is there is no (and has never been) any data available that counted unmarried couples as a two-parent household.

Just saying,
 
The issue of getting shot by police is way overblown. The number of unarmed people shot by the police is very low and most of those involved people trying to take the cop's gun.

The police are a lot more militant than they used to be. I don't find that surprising, given all the drugs and guns and general attitude of "FUCK you pigs!" across the board.

That said though, back around 2000 when I was on the board of the local NAACP the issues of YBM and cops became a thing, here locally. A common attitude amongst other board members was something along the lines of "The problem between YBM and the cops isn't the cops. It's no account fathers. Guys who think making a baby means they're a man. It doesn't! Any fool can make a baby. Real men take care of their babies."
Statistics backed them up strongly. About 2/3rds of black kids were born to single mothers. About 1/4 of white kids were. Boys raised by single moms are at a huge disadvantage, regardless of race.
Tom

Your local NAACP must have been trash. What else could they be for basing their opinions on a flawed view of available statistics? My understanding is there is no (and has never been) any data available that counted unmarried couples as a two-parent household.

Just saying,

Having a different opinion from your's makes them trash?

That is so Woke.
Tom
 
The point is not that there is no racism, but that there isn't enough racism to hold people back.
Consistently being denigrated and treated poorly can have long-lasting and severe psychological effects. You have no reasonable basis for your position.
Bad things happen to everybody.
True, but lumping random bad events with persistent non-random events is ridiculous.
 
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