Houthis turn pirate

[Derec]

Are you under the delusion that none of those countries has a navy or a military?

No. But you are under a delusion if you do not think US will be taking the point in any international task force.

FFS, by overthrowing the elected government, the Shah gained significantly more power.

He did gain some power. He was not put in power, like you ignorantly claimed.

Totally irrelevant.

Of course it is relevant. Him being originally elected democratically is not relevant if he does not act democratically while in office. That's the same apologetics with Salvador Allende in Chile two decades later. Both Mossadegh and Allende were elected democratically but then acted in anything but democratic fashion.

Your opinion of Mossadegh is immaterial to the issue that the US overthrew him which set up a venal corrupt authoritarian with more power (the Shah) who ruled so poorly that he was overthrown and replaced by the theocrats.

The Shah was overthrown because leftist groups in Iran allied themselves with the theocrats to overthrow the Shah. At the same time, western countries fail to recognize the danger posed by Khomeini and his theocrats. Jimmy Carter's UN ambassador Andrew Young hailed the Ayatollah as a "saint" and France gave him aid and comfort while he was in exile. What fools they have been!
Of course, the Iranian theocrats turned on their leftist allies as soon as they gained power. But somehow, the Left never learns and are as infatuated with political Islam as ever ...

The Shah was a corrupt, venal autocrat. We overthrew the elected gov't and propped up the autocratic.

What you do not get is that the "elected government" was as autocratic in addition to being kleptocratic.

As usual, you are wrong. Explaining the chain of events is not justifying anything.

This thread was about Iranian puppets the Houthis attacking international shipping. Why bring up your interpretation of what happened in the 1950s (70 years ago!) other than try to use it to justify present day actions of the theocratic regime and its puppets?

You recognize the fact that both wars (and aftermaths more so) were mismanaged. Why would you think that we would not mismanage this?

For one, nobody is proposing to send ground troops into Yemen. Just to deter them by hitting their positions. Soon the cost in men and material will become too high for them to continue to engage in piracy.

We have Ukraine, Gaza

US is only indirectly involved in Ukraine and Gaza, mostly through weapons supplies. No US airplanes are flying sorties in either theater. So there are plenty of unused Air Force and Naval aviation capabilities.

and now a possible invasion in South America to deal with.

Oh yeah, I remember when the leftists on here were all hailing Venezuela under the Bolivarian regime. Hugo Chavez was a celebrity. How is that going? You guys still support the bus driver who is Chavez' handpicked successor?

As usual, you are dead wrong. No one brought up ancient history, let alone defended Iran.

Well I certainly did not bring up the 1950s, and what other reason do you have for doing so other than to defend Iranian actions today?

Those claims are outright mischaracterizations. Explaining that Iran has legitimate complaints against the US that give it good reason to distrust us (the overthrow of the elected gov't, and our helping Iraq in their war with Iran) is not defending anyone.

The 1950s were more complex than your characterization of it (esp. as part of the Civil War), and I do not see why the ayatollahs would even care about Mossadegh. They would care about the Iran-Iraq war, but by that time Iran became our sworn enemy - they even invaded our Embassy and held hostages in 1979 - so why should we not have supported the other side?
Not that any of it justifies piracy in the Red Sea, so I fail to see why you keep harping on the 1950s.

Again, a minor commercial issue in the grand scheme of things.

I disagree that it is a minor issue.

 

[Toni]

Iran has chosen the path of war.

Iran has been fighting against the USA and our violence since the 70s, at least. It's self defense.
Tom

Uh, no.

 

[Toni]

Self defense against what? If they leave the world alone the world will leave them alone.

Your wish for peace in our time will work about as well as it did in 1938.

Iran is supporting proxies, which is not the same as Germany waging a war on Europe. The UN exists to try to keep the military skirmishes from getting out of hand. It isn't a Utopian delusion. It is trying to hold things back enough that we don't do WWII again. Acting like we have to fight a full blown war with Iran, which would cost us tens of thousands of lives, minimum, would likely draw into a massive military operation with Russia and China siding with Iran.

You want to kill millions to save the lives of dozens... and you whine about gun control being bad math?

I'm not calling for a war with Iran. I'm calling for recognizing that what we are seeing is a not-exactly-cold war between Iran and the west. It's impossible to make peace with Iran's puppets because puppets can't make peace.

Stop provoking Iran and things will get better.
The same with Russia and China.

Uh, no.

What you seem to mean by provoking Russia is helping sovereign nations defend themselves against Russian armed invasion.

 

[Derec]

Your argument is devoid of any recognition of the social and cultural context of the area. Unless the Houthis are eliminated, this will not stop. In essence, you are advocating killing for just killing's sake or genocide.

I think you are confusing the Houthi tribe, with "the Houthis" - official name Ansar Allah - the terror group cum Iranian vassal.
I am referring to the latter, not the former, so the allegation of "genocide" is nonsensical. Killing Nazis is not genocide against Germans. Killing Al Qaeda is not genocide against Arabs. And so on.
I do not think "eliminating" Ansar Allah is necessary to get them to stop attacking shipping. Putting a hurt on them, i.e. attacking their positions from the air, will be enough. But even if it is necessary to eliminate them, so what? They are a terrorist group that are best gone anyway.

We don't have enough supplies for our own defence and sending arms to Ukraine and Israel. And we don't need to get pulled into some minor spat.

We have enough supplies. The issue is political, not logistical. And as far as resources that will need to be expanded, they are indeed minor in the grand scheme of US military capabilities and will not put a strain on them.

There is little evidence the US can "walk" effectively in that region, let alone "walk and chew gum". Your comic book view of the world appears to drive your barbaric bloodlust. Thankfully, the neocons and other warmongers are not in power.

There is no "bloodlust" and you have not explained why you think hitting Houthi (aka Ansar Allah) targets and deterring them is beyond the capability of US military. We have the best air force and naval aviation in the world.

 

[laughing dog]

Are you under the delusion that none of those countries has a navy or a military?

No. But you are under a delusion if you do not think US will be taking the point in any international task force.

I didn’t mention any international task force.

Totally irrelevant.

Of course it is relevant. Him being originally elected democratically is not relevant if he does not act democratically while in office. …,

It is up to the citizens to decide whether their elected leaders should be removed, not those outside the country. So hus behavior is irrelevant.

The Shah was overthrown because leftist groups in Iran allied themselves with the theocrats to overthrow the Shah. …

No, that is how the Shah was overthrown not why. The reasons are the “why”.

What you do not get is that the "elected government" was as autocratic in addition to being kleptocratic.

Compared to yhe Shah? No. And what you do not get is that an elected gov’t is chosen by the electorate while a hereditary ruler is not.

This thread was about Iranian puppets the Houthis attacking international shipping. Why bring up your interpretation of what happened in the 1950s (70 years ago!) other than try to use it to justify present day actions of the theocratic regime and its puppets?

Already answered that.

For one, nobody is proposing to send ground troops into Yemen. Just to deter them by hitting their positions. Soon the cost in men and material will become too high for them to continue to engage in piracy.

Only in your blood soaked dreams.

 

[laughing dog]

Your argument is devoid of any recognition of the social and cultural context of the area. Unless the Houthis are eliminated, this will not stop. In essence, you are advocating killing for just killing's sake or genocide.

I think you are confusing the Houthi tribe, with "the Houthis" - official name Ansar Allah - the terror group cum Iranian vassal.

The terrorists are part of the Houthi rebels - it is tribal.
You cannot separate them easily ( if at all).

The situation is much more complex than your comic book view. Killing members of a tribe invites retribution.

 

[ZiprHead]

That's just our dictators are better than yours.

Are you claiming the ayatollahs as your dictators?

You would probably comprehend the comment much better if you didn't deliberately cut off what the comment was responding to. You do know we see it when you do that sort of thing, right?

 

[TV and credit cards]

MSC joins Maersk (who together make up 34% of container shipping) in staying out of the Red Sea. One sixth of the world's container shipping passes through the Bab-al-Mandeb Strait to and from the Red Sea.

Shipping firms to avoid Suez Canal as Red Sea attacks increase

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Here's a huge reason I oppose them. Obama started U.S. on a path towards a peaceful and prosperous relationship with Iran. Teapartiers trashed that before it was even done. The reason we have no soft power in Iran is because people like Trump and Johnson sabotaged it.

Obama committed the standard mistake of the left--pretend diplomacy works. Iran accepted what we offered and kept on being evil.

What diplomacy?
Congress made it clear, there can be no peace treaty with Iran. Trump put the final nail in the coffin of the peace deal, but the Teapartiers had already made it clear.
No peace deal can last longer than a presidential election cycle.
Tom

But he did release frozen money.

 

[TomC]

But he did release frozen money.

He gave back money we'd stolen decades earlier.
You might be surprised by how many people believe that was American taxpayers money, but it wasn't.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

But he did release frozen money.

He gave back money we'd stolen decades earlier.
You might be surprised by how many people believe that was American taxpayers money, but it wasn't.
Tom

The Iranian assets remain frozen because of Hamas’s attack.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But he did release frozen money.

He gave back money we'd stolen decades earlier.
You might be surprised by how many people believe that was American taxpayers money, but it wasn't.
Tom

The Iranian assets remain frozen because of Hamas’s attack.

Some big chunk was released not long before the attack. Doing so obviously didn't make them feel friendly.

 

[jonatha]

But he did release frozen money.

He gave back money we'd stolen decades earlier.
You might be surprised by how many people believe that was American taxpayers money, but it wasn't.
Tom

The Iranian assets remain frozen because of Hamas’s attack.

Some big chunk was released not long before the attack. Doing so obviously didn't make them feel friendly.

Um, no...

 

[Derec]

He gave back money we'd stolen decades earlier.

Not stolen. It should have been paid out to the victims of Iranian-funded and -armed terrorism, not given to the usurper regime.

 

[Derec]

MSC joins Maersk (who together make up 34% of container shipping) in staying out of the Red Sea. One sixth of the world's container shipping passes through the Bab-al-Mandeb Strait to and from the Red Sea.

Shipping firms to avoid Suez Canal as Red Sea attacks increase

And yet, Biden is still dithering. Yes, yes, there is a sort of international task force formed. But it merely babysits ships and shoots cheap drones with much more expensive missiles. To deter these attacks, the taskforce needs to go on the offensive and attack Houthi positions. Can it take out every single drone and launcher? No, of course not. But it can damage Houthis sufficiently that they rethink their commitment to attacking shipping for their masters in Tehran.

It would be nice if people like Yahya Sarea (why are these terrorists so often named "Yahya"?) got a hellfire missile up their ass.

 

[Derec]

You would probably comprehend the comment much better if you didn't deliberately cut off what the comment was responding to. You do know we see it when you do that sort of thing, right?

I do not like quoting walls of text. The previous post is easily viewable in its entirety by clicking on the link anyway, no nothing is concealed.

But why so cryptic? Whom do you consider "your" dictators?

 

[Derec]

The terrorists are part of the Houthi rebels

The terrorists are the Houthi rebels, aka Ansar Allah.

- it is tribal.
You cannot separate them easily ( if at all).

Of course the two can be separated. Ansar Allah, the group colloquially called "the Houthis" is so named after their founder, Hussein al-Houthi.
But their membership is not just drawn from the Houthi tribe, and most members of the tribe are not part of the rebel/terror group called "the Houthis".

The situation is much more complex than your comic book view. Killing members of a tribe invites retribution.

The situation is more complex than your simplistic equation of the Houthi rebels with the Houthi tribe. But it is also simpler in some ways. The way to deter attacks on cargo ships is to hit the Houthi positions. Losing men and material would deter them, sooner or later. It's certainly a better tactic than to just passively take down the cheap drones they keep launching.

The membership of "the Houthis" is from different tribes, but is mostly Zaidi Shia in religion. But so what if the members of the tribe get upset? Should we not go after any middle eastern terrorists because they are from tribal societies and thus all members of some tribe? Osama bin Laden was the member of the Hadharem tribe. Should he not have been killed lest some of his fellow tribesmen take offense?

 

[Derec]

I didn’t mention any international task force.

So what would you like to happen? If anything?

No, that is how the Shah was overthrown not why. The reasons are the “why”.

There are many reasons "why". Shah had many faults for one (still better than your ayatollahs). And the leftist groups was under the mistaken belief they can work with the Islamists. That's also a part of the "why". Note that leftists still believe that

Compared to yhe Shah? No. And what you do not get is that an elected gov’t is chosen by the electorate while a hereditary ruler is not.

After 1953 there were still an elected parliament and still elected prime ministers. Before 1953 the Shah was already the non-elected monarch. And you are ignoring that Mossadegh would have lost the 1952 election had he not stopped voting when it was clear he would lose. That's authoritarian, anti-democratic behavior that you keep ignoring because it does not fit the mythos.

Already answered that.

No, you haven't. You keep yapping about 70 year old history to ignore the 800 pound terrorist gorilla throwing barrels at international shipping.

Only in your blood soaked dreams.

The Houthis have started this fight by attacking ships. Their blood will be on their own hands, if Biden ever stops dithering and takes decisive action against them.

 

[laughing dog]

The terrorists are part of the Houthi rebels

The terrorists are the Houthi rebels, aka Ansar Allah.

- it is tribal.
You cannot separate them easily ( if at all).

Of course the two can be separated. Ansar Allah, the group colloquially called "the Houthis" is so named after their founder, Hussein al-Houthi.
But their membership is not just drawn from the Houthi tribe, and most members of the tribe are not part of the rebel/terror group called "the Houthis".

The situation is much more complex than your comic book view. Killing members of a tribe invites retribution.

The situation is more complex than your simplistic equation of the Houthi rebels with the Houthi tribe. But it is also simpler in some ways. The way to deter attacks on cargo ships is to hit the Houthi positions. Losing men and material would deter them, sooner or later. It's certainly a better tactic than to just passively take down the cheap drones they keep launching.

The membership of "the Houthis" is from different tribes, but is mostly Zaidi Shia in religion. But so what if the members of the tribe get upset? Should we not go after any middle eastern terrorists because they are from tribal societies and thus all members of some tribe? Osama bin Laden was the member of the Hadharem tribe. Should he not have been killed lest some of his fellow tribesmen take offense?

The irony of your very simple “ stamp em out” would be amusing if it were bolstered by its basis of ignorance.

You are essentially advocating taking sides in a civil war in a society that neither forgets nor forgives any slight over minor commercial inconveniences . At best, your proposal provides temporary relief with low probability of success.

 

[TV and credit cards]

MSC joins Maersk (who together make up 34% of container shipping) in staying out of the Red Sea. One sixth of the world's container shipping passes through the Bab-al-Mandeb Strait to and from the Red Sea.

Shipping firms to avoid Suez Canal as Red Sea attacks increase

And yet, Biden is still dithering. Yes, yes, there is a sort of international task force formed. But it merely babysits ships and shoots cheap drones with much more expensive missiles. To deter these attacks, the taskforce needs to go on the offensive and attack Houthi positions. Can it take out every single drone and launcher? No, of course not. But it can damage Houthis sufficiently that they rethink their commitment to attacking shipping for their masters in Tehran.

It would be nice if people like Yahya Sarea (why are these terrorists so often named "Yahya"?) got a hellfire missile up their ass.

The shipping lines have decided to go around Africa tacking on 2-3 more weeks transit time. Egypt charges 5-6 hundred k per ship to pass through the Suez. Can this destabilize Egypt’s economy, I wonder. The shipping companies will change their charges per container from 2 to 4 thousand. Predictions for 2024 Q1 profits?

Biden has to be careful of how much munitions the US is expending. Ukraine, Israel, and now Yemen. It’d be a good time for China to start some shit with Taiwan.