How do we coexist with the 42.7%?

[prideandfall]

But why do they support Trump after all he has done? There is no rational argument to support him. Disapproving of Trump's job/performance does not mean one endorses the "elites". How does a shitty president that pays them lip service (at best) merit their support?

you're making a very common mistake: thinking that rational self interest and reasonable functional governance of society is a universal goal against which all politicians are measured.
i see this a lot, my wife struggles with this too, wondering "how can they keep voting for republicans when republicans do X or Y or Z?" because she thinks that X, Y, or Z are bad things that people would dislike.

the thing is, nothing trump is doing is bad to these people. you have to understand that the basic underlying core premise here is that we're dealing with people fundamentally incapable of mentally or emotionally getting on board with the idea of an equitably governed society.
trump is the US conservative ideological endpoint: he is late 21st century Republicanism made flesh and spray-tanned orange.
these people support him because they endorse what he does, what he says, and what he's doing because those things align with their values.
this isn't a case where the presidential administrative or the news media or facebook or whatever has tricked people into supporting someone they falsely believe is doing something other than what he's doing - these people love him for his incompetence, and the shitpipe that is his mouth, and the rapid-fire dismantling of the basic concept of structured social order.

so, there IS a rational argument to support him: this sort of thing is exactly what a significant percentage of the US population wants. this is their endgame.
i've been saying it since mid-2015, that trump is the greatest republican presidential candidate since reagan, and given how the GOP has shifted philosophically since the 80s is probably the greatest republican public figure in the last 70 years, if you classify 'greatest' in this sense as meaning the distilled essence of what the party is, and what the inevitable result of that ideology concludes.

 

[ideologyhunter]

White backlash is real. The phenomenon of working class people voting against their own interests has been a pronounced feature of the electoral landscape at least since '80 and Reagan. If you need another irrational consequence of the cultural divide, there's the outrageously delicious spectacle of the evangelical vote for Trump. Only in America.

 

[marc]

i see this a lot, my wife struggles with this too, wondering "how can they keep voting for republicans when republicans do X or Y or Z?" because she thinks that X, Y, or Z are bad things that people would dislike.

It could be distilled as "Liberals are evil" therefore anything Liberals hate must be good. Liberals hate Trump and everything he does, so he MUST be doing a great job.

 

[prideandfall]

It could be distilled as "Liberals are evil" therefore anything Liberals hate must be good. Liberals hate Trump and everything he does, so he MUST be doing a great job.

eh, this still pre-supposes that there's an element to it that isn't directly approving of what trump is doing, still treating it like some kind of reactionary thing that isn't related directly to tacit approval of his behavior for its own sake.
what i see from trump supporters is that they like what he's doing because they like what he's doing, not just because it 'owns the libs' or 'because fox news told me so'

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

the solution is easy and clean and 100% effective: we need to bar the conservative element in this country from being allowed to participate in the process of government.

That's a very interesting proposition. The question is - HOW?

How would you prevent them from participating in the process of government?

 

[Angry Floof]

the solution is easy and clean and 100% effective: we need to bar the conservative element in this country from being allowed to participate in the process of government.

That's a very interesting proposition. The question is - HOW?

How would you prevent them from participating in the process of government?

Maybe require a civics education? Just a thought. Personally, I think voting should be mandatory for everyone at age 18 regardless of education, but if you really wanted to reduce the influence of right wing personality disorder in our country, just require them to know stuff before they can participate.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

the solution is easy and clean and 100% effective: we need to bar the conservative element in this country from being allowed to participate in the process of government.

That's a very interesting proposition. The question is - HOW?

How would you prevent them from participating in the process of government?

Maybe require a civics education? Just a thought. Personally, I think voting should be mandatory for everyone at age 18 regardless of education, but if you really wanted to reduce the influence of right wing personality disorder in our country, just require them to know stuff before they can participate.

So you need to pass a test in order to be eligible to vote?

 

[Angry Floof]

Maybe require a civics education? Just a thought. Personally, I think voting should be mandatory for everyone at age 18 regardless of education, but if you really wanted to reduce the influence of right wing personality disorder in our country, just require them to know stuff before they can participate.

So you need to pass a test in order to be eligible to vote?

No, I didn't say that. But it answers the question of how to prevent conservatives from voting or at least reduce their numbers.

As I clearly stated, I don't think anyone should have to pass any test to vote.

 

[prideandfall]

the solution is easy and clean and 100% effective: we need to bar the conservative element in this country from being allowed to participate in the process of government.

That's a very interesting proposition. The question is - HOW?

How would you prevent them from participating in the process of government?

well that's the rub, there isn't a viable solution to that problem within the context of an even ostensibly democratic system of government.
it's kind of like how i know that if our culture collectively had a less aggressive response to child molesters, then child molesters wouldn't kill kids as often in order to cover up their crimes, so being softer on child molesting would result in less dead children... that's a fact that's true, but i don't know what to *do* with that information.

i know that people voting for a political group into governmental office who has the sole stated goal of disrupting and destroying the very concept of government is bad for the continued existence of government, and that the simplest solution is to just not let those people do that anymore.
but how exactly you quantify that and implement it as a policy on a national level in a place like the US? i can't imagine there would ever be a way to do that within the strictures of US constitutional rights.

i guess another way would be to enact policy that regulates who gets to be in government, disallowing those who espouse certain views or pursue certain goals from being able to hold elected office, which would probably work better than suppressing voting rights... just stop giving these idiots the option of voting in these other idiots.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Maybe require a civics education? Just a thought. Personally, I think voting should be mandatory for everyone at age 18 regardless of education, but if you really wanted to reduce the influence of right wing personality disorder in our country, just require them to know stuff before they can participate.

So you need to pass a test in order to be eligible to vote?

No, I didn't say that. But it answers the question of how to prevent conservatives from voting or at least reduce their numbers.

As I clearly stated, I don't think anyone should have to pass any test to vote.

Well, that's what you get for answering a question aimed at someone else.

the solution is easy and clean and 100% effective: we need to bar the conservative element in this country from being allowed to participate in the process of government.

That's a very interesting proposition. The question is - HOW?

How would you prevent them from participating in the process of government?

well that's the rub, there isn't a viable solution to that problem within the context of an even ostensibly democratic system of government.
it's kind of like how i know that if our culture collectively had a less aggressive response to child molesters, then child molesters wouldn't kill kids as often in order to cover up their crimes, so being softer on child molesting would result in less dead children... that's a fact that's true, but i don't know what to *do* with that information.

i know that people voting for a political group into governmental office who has the sole stated goal of disrupting and destroying the very concept of government is bad for the continued existence of government, and that the simplest solution is to just not let those people do that anymore.
but how exactly you quantify that and implement it as a policy on a national level in a place like the US? i can't imagine there would ever be a way to do that within the strictures of US constitutional rights.

i guess another way would be to enact policy that regulates who gets to be in government, disallowing those who espouse certain views or pursue certain goals from being able to hold elected office, which would probably work better than suppressing voting rights... just stop giving these idiots the option of voting in these other idiots.

Well, that's interesting. You offer two basic solutions - prevent the wrong people from being allowed on the ballot, or prevent the wrong people from casting votes. In either case you would need some sort of standard by which to judge whether someone is the right or wrong person. Yes, it can't be done within the structure of the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Let us assume, for the sake of argument, that you are given authority to suspend the constitutional restrictions that get in the way.

In order for you to allow someone on the ballot or allow someone to vote (depending on the option chosen) they would need to be tested somehow. Those who fail the test don't get to participate. Will there be anyone who you disagree with who could pass your test?

 

[Angry Floof]

No, I didn't say that. But it answers the question of how to prevent conservatives from voting or at least reduce their numbers.

As I clearly stated, I don't think anyone should have to pass any test to vote.

Well, that's what you get for answering a question aimed at someone else.

I'll respond as I damn well please.

Right wing authoritarianism is a disease of humanity. It's a disease of human thought and behavior. It has no place in government or power of any level. It is stunted and inhumane at its core. It is the culmination of all that is base and stupid and mean and scared and weak in human experience. I don't know how to keep it out of power when there are so many infected and putting their loudest and richest in office, but I do know that every time this disease rears its head, it takes widespread atrocity for the masses to get a fucking clue about it and stop supporting the shittiest, lowest, most conscienceless and destructive people rising to power.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Right wing authoritarianism is a disease of humanity. It's a disease of human thought and behavior. It has no place in government or power of any level. It is stunted and inhumane at its core. It is the culmination of all that is base and stupid and mean and scared and weak in human experience. I don't know how to keep it out of power when there are so many infected and putting their loudest and richest in office, but I do know that every time this disease rears its head, it takes widespread atrocity for the masses to get a fucking clue about it and stop supporting the shittiest, lowest, most conscienceless and destructive people rising to power.

Are right wingers even human?

 

[zorq]

Right wing authoritarianism is a disease of humanity. It's a disease of human thought and behavior. It has no place in government or power of any level. It is stunted and inhumane at its core. It is the culmination of all that is base and stupid and mean and scared and weak in human experience. I don't know how to keep it out of power when there are so many infected and putting their loudest and richest in office, but I do know that every time this disease rears its head, it takes widespread atrocity for the masses to get a fucking clue about it and stop supporting the shittiest, lowest, most conscienceless and destructive people rising to power.

Are right wingers even human?

Here's a snippet of something that showed up in my facebook feed recently:

Show

COULD SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME HOW THIS HAPPENED AND HOW IT’S SUPPOSE TO MAKE ANY SENSE TO ANYONE WITH ANY IQ OR EVEN AN OUNCE OF MORALITY?

To my closed minded friends, knowledge will set you free, We are living in Bizarre World:

. If a man pretends to be a woman, you are required to pretend with him.

. Somehow It's un-American for the census to count how many Americans are in America.

. Russians influencing our elections are bad, but illegal Mexicans voting in our elections are good.

. It was cool for Joe Biden to blackmail the President of Ukraine, but it's an impeachable offense if Donald Trump inquires about it.

.Sexualizing children is bad, but 11-year-old drag queens are good.

. Illegals aren't required to show ID, but citizens can't buy cough medicine without it.

. Citizens are fined if they don't buy their own health insurance, and then they are forced to buy it for illegals.

. People who have never owned slaves should pay slavery reparations to people who have never been slaves.

. Inflammatory rhetoric is outrageous, but harassing people in restaurants is virtuous.

. People who have never been to college should pay the debts of college students who took out huge loans for college degrees.

. Immigrants with tuberculosis and polio are welcome, but you'd better be able to prove your dogs are vaccinated.

. Irish doctors and German engineers who want to immigrate must go through a rigorous vetting process, but any Central-American who jumps the southern fence is welcome.

. $5 billion for border security is too expensive, but $1.5 trillion for "free" health care for illegals is not.

. If you cheat to get into college you go to prison, but if you cheat to get into the country you go to college for free.

. Politicians who say that the President is not above the law put illegal immigrants and themselves above the law.

. People who say there is no such thing as gender are demanding a female President.

. Illegals don't pay taxes, but they get tax refunds.

. We see other countries going Socialist and collapsing, and it seems like a great plan to us.

. Voter suppression is bad, but not allowing the President to be on the ballot is good.

. Fourth-of-July parades are bad, but parades of women dressed as vaginas are good.

. Some people are held responsible for things that happened before they were born, and other people are not held responsible for what they are doing right now.

. Criminals are catch and released to hurt more people, but stopping them is bad.

. In a Pandemic, Churches must close, but Murderous Abortion Clinics are listed as essential and must stay open.

. And pointing out all this hypocrisy somehow makes you a "racist".

When you become tired of living in the Left's liberal, dystopian nightmare - copy, paste and share.

Everything that isn't a grossly distorted strawman of an actual liberal's position is just flat out wrong. But do you think there were ANY skeptical comments? Nope. These people live in a twisted world.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Are right wingers even human?

Two of 'em grabbed my cousin Tad when he was with his mom at the food bank. They started to suck blood from his neck!

 

[Angry Floof]

Right wing authoritarianism is a disease of humanity. It's a disease of human thought and behavior. It has no place in government or power of any level. It is stunted and inhumane at its core. It is the culmination of all that is base and stupid and mean and scared and weak in human experience. I don't know how to keep it out of power when there are so many infected and putting their loudest and richest in office, but I do know that every time this disease rears its head, it takes widespread atrocity for the masses to get a fucking clue about it and stop supporting the shittiest, lowest, most conscienceless and destructive people rising to power.

Are right wingers even human?

The honest question is can right wingers take responsibility for their utter lack of empathy, self reflection, or critical thinking?

Also, do right wingers even want to be human? Because all the things that separate us from other animals don't seem to be of any value to them, things like reason, self control, ability to admit wrong, ability to change one's mind with new information, ability to recognize the humanity of people they don't know... I could go on but you already know all this.

 

[Deepak]

Right wing authoritarianism is a disease of humanity. It's a disease of human thought and behavior. It has no place in government or power of any level. It is stunted and inhumane at its core. It is the culmination of all that is base and stupid and mean and scared and weak in human experience. I don't know how to keep it out of power when there are so many infected and putting their loudest and richest in office, but I do know that every time this disease rears its head, it takes widespread atrocity for the masses to get a fucking clue about it and stop supporting the shittiest, lowest, most conscienceless and destructive people rising to power.

Are right wingers even human?

What a world where the libertarian stands up for authoritarians.

Remember, liberals are the real fascists

 

[ideologyhunter]

Trump is the one who wanted to preside over a military parade. Trump is the one who tells us "I can do anything I want as President." Trump had peaceful demonstrators tear-gassed so he could hold a Bible upside-down on TV. He wants to send the military into U.S. cities to 'impose the rule of law.' Trump told us in '16 that "We have to torture" and that he wanted the US to "go after" not just terrorists but their families, that we should have seized and kept the Iraqi oil reserves -- that's three war crimes right there (a fourth is his threat to destroy Iran's cultural sites.) He and his lawyers have insisted repeatedly that he is not subject to investigation/oversight from Congress. "G-g-gee, Wally, it sounds kinda dictatory to me!"

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Right wing authoritarianism is a disease of humanity. It's a disease of human thought and behavior. It has no place in government or power of any level. It is stunted and inhumane at its core. It is the culmination of all that is base and stupid and mean and scared and weak in human experience. I don't know how to keep it out of power when there are so many infected and putting their loudest and richest in office, but I do know that every time this disease rears its head, it takes widespread atrocity for the masses to get a fucking clue about it and stop supporting the shittiest, lowest, most conscienceless and destructive people rising to power.

Are right wingers even human?

What a world where the libertarian stands up for authoritarians.

Remember, liberals are the real fascists

I am trying to understand the position of those I'm conversing with. Not saying I agree or disagree, just trying to figure it out.

I have to figure it out before I can definitively say I agree or disagree.

To you that is standing up for authoritarians. So we're not supposed to try to understand where other people stand?

I only use the term "right winger" because that is what is used in this thread. To me, it doesn't mean much. Some of those covered by the term love government, and some hate government. Conversely, some of those covered by the term "left wing" love government, and some hate government. I am not trying to understand "right wing" or "left wing" but the people I respond to. And even if I am defending either wing, who says which part of that wing I am defending?

 

[Deepak]

I understand all of the words in the comment chain, and I know what I'm replying to - it's all standard English.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

I understand all of the words in the comment chain, and I know what I'm replying to - it's all standard English.

Then why does what you wrote have no relation to what I wrote?