How do we know what Jesus said when no one was there, anyway?

[Lion IRC]

I don't accept that Christianity is such an opaque, fragmented concept that Christians lack a central message.
...it's not like we don't all have access to the exact same words as they appear in the Gospel.

Really?

Yes. Really.

You are going to claim that all of the various translations and versions of the Holy Bible are all exactly the same?

No. They aren't "exactly" the same. They don't claim to be. They don't need to be.

Why is it that there are so many versions?

Because in Elizabethan England they used "thou" and "thine" and we use you and yours.
They aren't exactly the same. And yet they aren't contradictory.
Of course I f there were a Bill and Teds Excellent Adventure version of the bible we would still understand what they meant by "righteous" dude.

Then, why is it that there are so many denominations in that pool of nominal 'Christians'?

It's even worse than that.
Every single individual is a denomination of their own insofar as they have a personal one-on-one relationship with Jesus.

If the message is so damned clear, why is it that the 'Christian' community has a history of centuries of ongoing inter-denominational violence over minor doctrinal differences of interpretation?

I hate to break the news to you but Protestants and Catholics don't fight over bible translations they fight over land and money and power. There's no money in winning an argument over the "Real Presence"

That includes the very reason for imperial intercession in Christian affairs; internecine violence.

Do you mean to tell me that you couldn't muster up a list of Christian theological distinctives upon which two or more (billion) Christians agree as the fundamental basis of the word Christianity?
The written Gospel hasn't changed.

So, Lion, I agree with others here that you are in serious error. You are wrong.
I suspect that you have never read much of the Holy Bible at all. Or, if you have, you have been blinded by errant interpretations and I'll bet I could form a sizeable committee of believing Christians who would agree with me once they knew the details.

Go ahead. I am not changing anything I've said despite your claim that you can summon up a legion of Christians who will expose my alleged heresy.

You are a screaming heretic, according to a significant number of your fellow Christians.

So you claim.

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"

He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!"

Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.

~ Emo Phillips

Sorry. Your OTT polemic hyperbole isn't making you more persuasive.

 

[Lion IRC]

Reasonable Faith dot.org Theological Distinctives

Theological Distinctives

I believe that the one and only God is tri-personal, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit being distinct, divine persons.
I believe that Jesus Christ is truly God and truly human, the unique, sure, and sufficient revelation of the very being, character, and purposes of God, beside whom there is no other god, and beside whom there is no other name by which we must be saved.
I believe that the only ground for our acceptance by God is what Jesus Christ did on the cross and what he is now doing through his risen life, whereby he exposed and reversed the course of human sin and violence, died for our sins, redeemed us from the power of evil, reconciled us to God, and empowers us with his life "from above." We therefore bring nothing to our salvation. We receive his redemption solely by grace through faith.
I believe that new life, given supernaturally through spiritual regeneration, is a necessity as well as a gift and that the lifelong conversion that results is the only pathway to a radically changed character and way of life. Thus the only sufficient power for a life of Christian faithfulness and moral integrity in this world is that of Christ's resurrection and the power of the Holy Spirit.
I believe that Jesus' own teaching and his attitude toward the total truthfulness and supreme authority of the Bible, God's inspired Word, make the Scriptures our final rule for faith and practice.
I believe that being disciples of Jesus means serving him as Lord in every sphere of our lives, secular as well as spiritual, public as well as private, in deeds as well as words, and in every moment of our days on earth, always reaching out as he did to those who are lost, as well as to the poor, the sick, the hungry, the oppressed, the socially despised, and being faithful stewards of creation and our fellow-creatures.
I believe that the blessed hope of the personal return of Jesus provides both strength and substance to what the Church is doing, just as what we are doing becomes a sign of the hope of where we are going; both together leading to a consummation of history and the fulfillment of an undying kingdom that comes only by the power of God.
I believe that all followers of Christ are called to know and love Christ through worship, love Christ's family through fellowship, grow like Christ through discipleship, serve Christ by ministering to the needs of others in his name, and share Christ with those who do not yet know him, inviting people to the ends of the earth and to the end of time to join us as his disciples and followers of his way.

Nothing here I disagree with.

 

[bilby]

Theological Distinctives

I believe that the one and only God is tri-personal, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit being distinct, divine persons.
I believe that Jesus Christ is truly God and truly human, the unique, sure, and sufficient revelation of the very being, character, and purposes of God, beside whom there is no other god, and beside whom there is no other name by which we must be saved.
I believe that the only ground for our acceptance by God is what Jesus Christ did on the cross and what he is now doing through his risen life, whereby he exposed and reversed the course of human sin and violence, died for our sins, redeemed us from the power of evil, reconciled us to God, and empowers us with his life "from above." We therefore bring nothing to our salvation. We receive his redemption solely by grace through faith.
I believe that new life, given supernaturally through spiritual regeneration, is a necessity as well as a gift and that the lifelong conversion that results is the only pathway to a radically changed character and way of life. Thus the only sufficient power for a life of Christian faithfulness and moral integrity in this world is that of Christ's resurrection and the power of the Holy Spirit.
I believe that Jesus' own teaching and his attitude toward the total truthfulness and supreme authority of the Bible, God's inspired Word, make the Scriptures our final rule for faith and practice.
I believe that being disciples of Jesus means serving him as Lord in every sphere of our lives, secular as well as spiritual, public as well as private, in deeds as well as words, and in every moment of our days on earth, always reaching out as he did to those who are lost, as well as to the poor, the sick, the hungry, the oppressed, the socially despised, and being faithful stewards of creation and our fellow-creatures.
I believe that the blessed hope of the personal return of Jesus provides both strength and substance to what the Church is doing, just as what we are doing becomes a sign of the hope of where we are going; both together leading to a consummation of history and the fulfillment of an undying kingdom that comes only by the power of God.
I believe that all followers of Christ are called to know and love Christ through worship, love Christ's family through fellowship, grow like Christ through discipleship, serve Christ by ministering to the needs of others in his name, and share Christ with those who do not yet know him, inviting people to the ends of the earth and to the end of time to join us as his disciples and followers of his way.

Nothing here I disagree with.

Nothing here you can in any way demonstrate to be true, either. WHY do you agree with them?

 

[Jobar]

It is surprising that its lasted so long considering Christians were not quite chums with the convention back then...Judaic (pharisees) and Roman ideologies which would be quite threatening for them; losing people to Christian conversion.

Would people honestly think it unlikely that sabotage,persecutions and distortions i.e. enemies of the theology would not exist around and against the churches for centuries?

After Constantine made Christianity the official faith of the Roman Empire in the fourth century, Christian "sabotage, persecutions and distortions" of the older pagan traditions pretty much wiped out those traditions. Early Romans were quite tolerant of other faiths, actually. They figured that if the gods thought something truly blasphemous, they'd deal with it themselves.

The length of time Christianity has existed (albeit in many forms) *is* something of an open question to historians, yes. One possible explanation:

It cannot be emphasized too strongly that Christianity has a vested interest in human misery. This central theme manifests itself again and again in Christian doctrines, and most Christian doctrines are unintelligible unless viewed in this context. The spectacular success of Christianity has been a topic of heated debate among scholars, and it is certainly true that definite historical factors influenced that success. I suggest, however, that much of Christianity's success can be accounted for in another way: Christianity, perhaps more than any religion before or since, capitalized on human suffering; and it was enormously successful in insuring its own existence through the perpetuation of human suffering.

That's from G.H. Smith's Atheism: The Case Against God.

 

[Juma]

On the contrary, both jews and Rome was rather open to other religions/cultures.
The persecution of christians at is a myth.

You mean they were OK with Jesus being more important and higher than caesar and only one God makes their gods powerless?

Why would it matter to the romans/jews what the christians fantasy was?

Why would US citizens today care if some people believed that superman was more powerful than the US president?

 

[Tigers!]

I suspect that you have never read much of the Holy Bible at all. Or, if you have, you have been blinded by errant interpretations and I'll bet I could form a sizeable committee of believing Christians who would agree with me once they knew the details.

.

~ Emo Phillips

For God so loved the world he didn't sent a committee (with apologies to John 3:16)

 

[ideologyhunter]

Some day the Christians can explain why only John's gospel has Lazarus coming back from the dead -- the #1 headline miracle, apparently performed not only in front of Lazarus' sisters, but known to the community. Just how bad were the gospel sources?

 

[southernhybrid]

Well, I don't 'admit' that there's any contradictions in the bible.
So does my opposite view cancel out hers? A nil-all-draw?

I would go even further and assert that there are no contradictions in the bible. And that the exact same method bible skeptics use to interpret something as a so-called contradiction, can equally be employed to resolve the supposed contradiction.

Sorry it took so long to respond to you, but my young coworker is a strong Christian who has studied the Bible from a very scholarly perspective. I think her admission that the Bible is full of contradictions holds a lot more weight than your unsupported opinion. I suggest and I don't mean this in a snarky way, that you read your Bible a lot more closely and if you can do it with an open mind, you too will start to see the contradictions that the Bible contains.

The young woman that I mentioned still maintained that the message was similar enough to have credibility. While I disagree, I did give her credit for at least admitting her holy book was full of contradictions.

 

[DBT]

Yep. That's what I think too.
It's not an opinion that there are contradictions in the bible if the contradictions are there for anyone to see, and if they are logically incompatible.

...meanwhile, talk is cheap.

Some folk may not want to acknowledge the existence of contradictions in the bible where contradictions exist - and are there for all to see - because contradictions in the bible may put their faith to question.

I agree that if there were contradictions in the bible it could be a challenge to faith.

How do you explain the contradictions that are there?

The claim that God is Love, for example....yet this 'God of Love' orders genocide, slavery, etc, when dealing with other tribes, Amalekites, etc. Which contradicts the nature of Love, fairness, justice, ethics and even common decency.

 

[Lion IRC]

Well, I don't 'admit' that there's any contradictions in the bible.
So does my opposite view cancel out hers? A nil-all-draw?

I would go even further and assert that there are no contradictions in the bible. And that the exact same method bible skeptics use to interpret something as a so-called contradiction, can equally be employed to resolve the supposed contradiction.

...my young coworker is a strong Christian who has studied the Bible from a very scholarly perspective. I think her admission that the Bible is full of contradictions holds a lot more weight than your unsupported opinion.

Well all I have is your unsupported hearsay claim that your anonymous co-worker has
a "very scholarly" opinion. You haven't actually provided any substance to this claim.
Do I have to provide proof that my opinion is also based on scholarly data?
#pissing_contest

I suggest and I don't mean this in a snarky way, that you read your Bible a lot more closely and if you can do it with an open mind, you too will start to see the contradictions that the Bible contains.

You're joking right?
That's going straight into my quote-mine vault. That's a keeper.
Atheists love that sort of "please, you just gotta try harder to believe" stuff.

The young woman that I mentioned still maintained that the message was similar enough to have credibility.

So she's "very scholarly" and yet thinks contradictions are ok and the bible's credibility is still intact? WTF

While I disagree, I did give her credit for at least admitting her holy book was full of contradictions.

Since she's your pin-up poster girl for scholarly opinion that the bible is full of internal contradictions, perhaps you might be able to ask her which contradiction she believes is the most glaringly obvious example of a faux pas made by the infallible Word of God

 

[Lion IRC]

...How do you explain the contradictions that are there?

*sigh*
You're not listening. I don't think there are any contradictions.
Unlike southernhybrid's very scholarly bible student co-worker, I don't say oh yeah well there are contradictions but they are there because 'xyz' or they don't matter because "blah blah blah"

...The claim that God is Love, for example....yet this 'God of Love' orders genocide, slavery, etc, when dealing with other tribes, Amalekites, etc. Which contradicts the nature of Love, fairness, justice, ethics and even common decency.

See here's a perfect example of an incorrect use of the word "contradiction". Your opinion about whether an act was loving is subjective. (So is mine BTW). So we might as well be arguing over the definition of "tough love" or whether you have to be cruel to be kind. Or whether the end justifies the means. Moreover, you haven't demonstrated that God has said...

"I will never ever take sides in a war because I am all about love instead." (Bible verse #1)
"I am the God of war because I am all about love and kindness etc. (Contradictory bible verse #2)

 

[Tigers!]

Some day the Christians can explain why only John's gospel has Lazarus coming back from the dead -- the #1 headline miracle, apparently performed not only in front of Lazarus' sisters, but known to the community. Just how bad were the gospel sources?

Why would that event need to be repeated or noted in other gospels?

How many times would an event (any event) need to be repeated before you might consider it plausible? 1,2 ...n?

 

[Lion IRC]

Exactly. You can't win.
If the story is corroborated, they say its a conspiracy.
If it isn't corroborated they say it can't be independently verified.
If it's independently verified they say it's collaboration.
If the collaborated stories are identical they say it's plagiarism.
If they aren't identical all they they look for then are contradictions.

Sheesh!

 

[bilby]

Exactly. You can't win.
If the story is corroborated, they say its a conspiracy.
If it isn't corroborated they say it can't be independently verified.
If it's independently verified they say it's collaboration.
If the collaborated stories are identical they say it's plagiarism.
If they aren't identical all they they look for are contradictions.

Sheesh!

Regardless, they (correctly) say that a single book with poorly understood authorship is not anywhere close to being the extraordinary evidence needed for the truly extraordinary claims being made.

You can believe, or not. But you can't reasonably claim to have enough evidence to justify your belief. It's just faith. You have it, I don't. We both think the other guy is wrong.

You can't win - not because other people are unreasonable in rejecting your 'evidence', but because there simply isn't enough evidence to convince anyone who doesn't start from the assumption that the stories in the Bible are non-fiction.

This goes straight back to the OP; How do we know what Jesus said when no one was there?

Forget about the Jesus part; How might we come to know what, let's take an historical figure at random, Henry VIII of England said when he was alone? What possible means could we have to find out what Henry said, when no humans were present?

Would you accept as true, probably true, or even possibly true, a written account of Henry's comments when alone and un-watched - if a book purporting to be such an account were presented to you?

 

[Learner]

Why would it matter to the romans/jews what the christians fantasy was?

Why would US citizens today care if some people believed that superman was more powerful than the US president?

Because they ALL would then have to kneel down or bow down to Jesus whereas: the US president tells superman what to do ... "Yes sir Mr. President!"

 

[bilby]

Why would it matter to the romans/jews what the christians fantasy was?

Why would US citizens today care if some people believed that superman was more powerful than the US president?

Because they ALL would then have to kneel down or bow down to Jesus whereas: the US president tells superman what to do ... "Yes sir Mr. President!"

Superman, like Christianity, is fictional. The President would have to be completely crazy if he













Sorry. I forgot who the current president was for a second.

 

[southernhybrid]

Well all I have is your unsupported hearsay claim that your anonymous co-worker has
a "very scholarly" opinion. You haven't actually provided any substance to this claim.
Do I have to provide proof that my opinion is also based on scholarly data?
#pissing_contest

I suggest and I don't mean this in a snarky way, that you read your Bible a lot more closely and if you can do it with an open mind, you too will start to see the contradictions that the Bible contains.

You're joking right?
That's going straight into my quote-mine vault. That's a keeper.
Atheists love that sort of "please, you just gotta try harder to believe" stuff.

The young woman that I mentioned still maintained that the message was similar enough to have credibility.

Wow. Looks like I inadvertently pushed your buttons. Look, if you want to deny that there are contradictions in the Bible, I can only assume that you aren't interested in having an honest discussion. I could link you to several sites, both secular, Muslim and Christian that admit there are contradictions. But, I don't think you want to accept the truth, so I'll let it be.

So she's "very scholarly" and yet thinks contradictions are ok and the bible's credibility is still intact? WTF

While I disagree, I did give her credit for at least admitting her holy book was full of contradictions.

Since she's your pin-up poster girl for scholarly opinion that the bible is full of internal contradictions, perhaps you might be able to ask her which contradiction she believes is the most glaringly obvious example of a faux pas made by the infallible Word of God

Wow. I guess my remarks inadvertently pushed your buttons. So, I assume that you aren't interested in having an honest discussion. So be it. If you eventually decide to have an open mind, you can do your own search for contradictions in the Bible. There are even some Christian sites that admit this, although those sites also do a lot of mind bending to explain why there are contradictions. Without an open mind and willingness to learn, we never grow. That's your choice. Your claims regarding your beliefs seem to be based on emotions. It's hard to have a discussion with someone that isn't willing to consider there might be something new to discover. I have no problem with people embracing religion, but I do have a problem when religious folks make unsupported claims about truth or pretend that what they believe is better than the beliefs that other religious folks hold. I only mentioned Noel because she had a four year degree in Bible Studies, so she was very familiar with Biblical contradictions and was honest enough to admit it., while you simply deny they exist. That's too bad.

 

[DBT]

...How do you explain the contradictions that are there?

*sigh*
You're not listening. I don't think there are any contradictions.

I gave an example of a contradiction. You may argue that it is not a contradiction, but if you look at it objectively, the bible given definition of love is not compatible with the bible given descriptions of the actions and attitude of this very same God.

Unlike southernhybrid's very scholarly bible student co-worker, I don't say oh yeah well there are contradictions but they are there because 'xyz' or they don't matter because "blah blah blah"

Which doesn't make you right and the 'very scholarly bible student co-worker' wrong.

See here's a perfect example of an incorrect use of the word "contradiction". Your opinion about whether an act was loving is subjective. (So is mine BTW). So we might as well be arguing over the definition of "tough love" or whether you have to be cruel to be kind. Or whether the end justifies the means. Moreover, you haven't demonstrated that God has said...

It's not incorrect because the bible itself provides terms and definitions, which you may not be aware of, or choose to ignore because it is inconvenient for your beliefs.

"I will never ever take sides in a war because I am all about love instead." (Bible verse #1)
"I am the God of war because I am all about love and kindness etc. (Contradictory bible verse #2)

Oh, it's worse than that:


"God is love." - 1 John 4:8
"Love is not jealous." - 1 Corinthians 13:4
"God is jealous." - Exodus 20:5


1 Corinthians 13; Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.''

1 John 4:7-8; Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works. << Psalm 145:9 >>



As opposed to

Exodus 20:55 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

Whoever is not with me is against me (Matthew 12:30, Luke 11:23)

Whoever is not against us is for us (Mark 9:40)

so YHWH will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nothing; (Deut 28:63)

I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear comes. (Proverbs 1:26)

But you, YHWH, shall laugh at them; You shall have all the nations in derision. (Psalm 59:8)



The contradictions:

1) Love is patient, love is kind - in opposition to - He is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. Joshua 24:19

2) It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. - in opposition to - "The Lord shall go forth as a mighty man, He shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: He shall cry, yea roar; He shall prevail against His enemies". Isaiah 42:13

3) It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs - in opposition to - Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them. Ezekiel 8:18

4) Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth - in opposition to - Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them. Ezekiel 8:18

5) It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres - in opposition to - Whatever the Lord pleases, He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps. (Psalm 135) and Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?" (Amos)

 

[Lion IRC]

...Without an open mind and willingness to learn, we never grow.

Well I have an open mind but the only thing i have learned from you so far is that 'Noel' has studied the bible for 4 years (versus my 40 years) and thinks it has a lot of contradictions ...and that those contradictions don't detract from its credibility.

I've learned that you think argument from authority (even my co-worker who is a Christian says there are contradictions) is worth something.

I've learned that when I ask you for a glaringly obvious example of a bible contradiction I'm wasting my time because you don't want to discuss the matter with a closed-mind fundy who isn't honest enough to admit that really are contradictions in the bible - if you look hard enough and just have faith that there really are there.

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[Lion IRC]

Time for the Mods to Start a Derail Topic - "Another Bible Contradictions Thread - April 2018"

DBT - Alleged bible contradiction Example #1

Whoever is not with me is against me (Matthew 12:30, Luke 11:23)

Whoever is not against us is for us (Mark 9:40)

Read the above very carefully southernhybrid. Are these statements mutually exclusive?
Is one the opposite of the other?
Is this is the type of thing your bible scholar co-worker thinks is a contradiction?

"contradiction"
kɒntrəˈdɪkʃ(ə)n
noun
a combination of statements, ideas, or features which are opposed to one another.
"the proposed new system suffers from a set of internal contradictions"
a situation in which inconsistent elements are present.
"the paradox of using force to overcome force is a real contradiction"
the statement of a position opposite to one already made.
"the second sentence appears to be in flat contradiction of the first"
synonyms: denial, refutation, rebuttal, countering, counterstatement, opposite;