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How does God do anything?

I disagree. I certainly do NOT think Jesus walked on water, raised Lazarus from the dead, or appeared to his disciples after his death. But (as you should know, Moogly) historical mysteries intrigue me. What did Jesus do that made him so famous? Heal? Preach? Instigate insurrection? Or (to quote the Humphrey Bogart character in Casablanca) was it a combination of all three? Many Jews were crucified by Pontius Pilate, some of them probably named "Jesus." But did any of those Jesuses even come from Nazareth at all?

These are questions of history, independent of any religious significance. Many (atheist) scholars have speculated on these matters and come to different conclusions. I think it's interesting to read about the controversy and try to form my own conclusions.
We'd all like to know exactly what happened. It can only be fiction that got historicized but who wrote the original story, where was he from, who was his audience? When did Paul come in? When did Marcion come in? Was the original story gnostic? Lots of questions and fodder for cottage industrialists. And I always wince when I hear "historical Jesus."
 
Surely you were aware that I was trying to mimic the style of some debating societies when they introduce a motion for debate?
I was not aware hat it was sarcasm. I was confused.
 
I disagree. I certainly do NOT think Jesus walked on water, raised Lazarus from the dead, or appeared to his disciples after his death. But (as you should know, Moogly) historical mysteries intrigue me. What did Jesus do that made him so famous? Heal? Preach? Instigate insurrection? Or (to quote the Humphrey Bogart character in Casablanca) was it a combination of all three? Many Jews were crucified by Pontius Pilate, some of them probably named "Jesus." But did any of those Jesuses even come from Nazareth at all?

These are questions of history, independent of any religious significance. Many (atheist) scholars have speculated on these matters and come to different conclusions. I think it's interesting to read about the controversy and try to form my own conclusions.
We'd all like to know exactly what happened. It can only be fiction that got historicized but who wrote the original story, where was he from, who was his audience? When did Paul come in? When did Marcion come in? Was the original story gnostic? Lots of questions and fodder for cottage industrialists. And I always wince when I hear "historical Jesus."
I guess where I stand on the issue is that the suspicion alone of it being false is sufficient reason to discount it as anything more than, well "suspect".

I have read and even appreciate the original story, though. When viewed from certain angles that religious people are, sadly, quite likely to miss it contains a stunning amount of good philosophical product, though shows so little of it's work as to be unhelpful.

Elsewhere, someone brought up the idea, in response to my discussions of real, extant "gods of universes", of which I am one, not of this universe (I hope, not anyway ._. ), that there are in the gnostic tradition ideas of "god the greater" and "god the lesser", that things like me create universes (badly), but that there is also a concept of an overarching truth of social metaphysics as well, and that this hope for a better future in being good to one another, the fact that it makes "good" a tangible reality, is worthy of consideration.

Interestingly, to just hold that shining truth inside you makes you that entity entire, not a knower of all truth but absolutely a holder of what is quite possibly the most important truth for things like us. And thus gives truth to "I Am".

Of course, none of this gives any real lev rage to Christianity as it stands in modern or even ancient times. If the author had a good message, it has been run hard by facile understandings of it and taken even further out into the weeds of bad faith, still: an idea that may be supported in part or whole by the intelligent is then wielded by the evil against the ignorant to attach whatever they please for selfish, short term goals.

I can say for certain, that if ever I create a heaven in which things like us may live, it will be as difficult for a wealthy person to attain as it is for a person in poverty; moreso because the wealth implies, all on its own, an allegiance to Mammon rather than this social truth.
 
I have read and even appreciate the original story, though. When viewed from certain angles that religious people are, sadly, quite likely to miss it contains a stunning amount of good philosophical product, though shows so little of it's work as to be unhelpful.
It's a superhero story and the superhero's message was a heck of a lot simpler to the masses so why wouldn't they throw in? Sure, an author had to invent the story, that's not original.

I posted a link in another thread about a recently discovered "Good Shepherd" ring. It isn't at all christian if you look at it, but it is now, 2000 years later. That's how christianity started, exactly the same way.
 
I have read and even appreciate the original story, though. When viewed from certain angles that religious people are, sadly, quite likely to miss it contains a stunning amount of good philosophical product, though shows so little of it's work as to be unhelpful.
It's a superhero story and the superhero's message was a heck of a lot simpler to the masses so why wouldn't they throw in? Sure, an author had to invent the story, that's not original.

I posted a link in another thread about a recently discovered "Good Shepherd" ring. It isn't at all christian if you look at it, but it is now, 2000 years later. That's how christianity started, exactly the same way.
So the biggest problem for me has always been the issue that people tune out when you show your work. It's really hard to have your cake and eat it too, to have a good philosophy and also sell it to others as something that they want in their lives.

And even if someone were to back the superhero story with an in-depth essay on the basis for the ethics and such, it would be ignored, or even lopped off entirely, likely for the specific purpose of manipulating the message.
 
For me the idea that a god could create natural laws and bend them at will was too much.
 
What is the actual mechanism by which God can affect the natural world? How did he create the universe? Does he just think stuff and then it happens? How can he read the minds of seven billion people at once? I’ve never heard a good answer to the question. “Because he’s god“ doesn’t count.

If your argument is since nobody can explain how an immaterial being can interact with material being, then that must mean God doesn't exist, then it isn't a good one. You'd have to show how the idea of an immaterial being interacting with a material world is logically incoherent. Immateriality != nonbeing or not anything.

Let me flip the question back to you. How does nonbeing or not anything produce material being? Because that's what some atheists believe.
 
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What is the actual mechanism by which God can affect the natural world? How did he create the universe? Does he just think stuff and then it happens? How can he read the minds of seven billion people at once? I’ve never heard a good answer to the question. “Because he’s god“ doesn’t count.

If your argument is since nobody can explain how an immaterial being can interact with material being, then that must mean God doesn't exist, then it isn't a good one. You'd have to show how the idea of an immaterial being interacting with a material world is logically incoherent. Immateriality != nonbeing or not anything.
The idea of an immaterial being interacting with a material world needn't be logically incoherent to be false.

Perpetual motion machines are logically coherent, as are rocks that fall upwards.

The reason we rule these things out as possible is that our very well tested and highly successful physical theories would have to be wrong, if these things were to be possible.

The same applies to interactions with material objects.

Einstein tells us that energy and matter are interchangeable. This has been repeatedly tested in myriad ways.

Quantum field theory tells us that every force has a corresponding particle, and that the properties of both forces and their carrier particles fall into a collection of entities called the Standard Model.

If we accept these observations about how reality behaves, we can deduce certain things about those parts of reality that are not yet known. Then we can test those deductions. The Higgs particle (aka Higgs boson) is an excellent example of this.

When enough energy is crammed into a small enough volume, EVERY particle with a mass equivalent to or less than the available energy is always produced. So to detect the Higgs field, you can just put higher and higher energies in one place, until the Higgs particle appears.

This applies to all interactions between matter and anything else. You can detect photons (the carriers of electromagnetic force); W particles that carry the weak nuclear interaction; Gluons that carry the strong nuclear interaction, and so on.

Notably, the graviton hasn't been found. That's because it's too heavy (and therefore requires too much energy to create); And this goes hand in hand with its incrediby weak abilities. Gravity is so pathetically weak that the force exerted by the entire planet Earth can be overwhelmed by the electromagnetic force in a tiny fridge magnet.

Weak forces cannot be applied only in a small localised area; Their area of influence is always large. So the Earth's gravity cannot affect me, but not also affect the person standing next to me, or even a person several miles away. Everyone gets the same effects from weak forces.

There may be unknown forces; But their range of possible energies, given that we haven't yet detected their carrier particles, implies that they cannot interact meaningfully with any object as small as or smaller than a solar system (much less an individual human), without doing so with sufficient energy that a single particle would annihilate any human with whom it interacted.

So when we consider potentially unknown forces, affecting humans, we can say with certainty that either:

a) Those forces are weak, like gravity; They cannot influence one human without influencing them all in exactly the same way; or

b) Those forces must have given rise to carrier particles in our particle accelerators, (and yet they did not); or

c) The Standard Model of particle physics is not just wrong, but massively wrong in ways that would be obvious to physicists (it's not; We checked).

There are no other possibilities. Either we must reject interactions between our (hypothetical) souls and our material bodies; Or we must reject the Standard Model.

One of these things is purely speculative and is hypothesised as an attempt to rescue traditional thinking originating with pre-scientific minds; The other is the most accurate way of describing reality ever tested by science.

You don't HAVE to reject the idea that the immaterial could interact with material reality on human scales; But if you do not, you MUST reject all of modern physics. Or, as most people prefer, simply remain ignorant of it.

Note that the Standard Model need not be completely correct or correctly complete for this argument to stand. It's just got to be not wildly wrong at human scales. Just as Newton's gravity isn't completely accurate as a description of how massive bodies interact, but it's good enough for us to be sure that Einstein's revisions of it (and any future revisions of Einstein) will not produce rocks that sometimes fall upwards.
 
The idea of an immaterial being interacting with a material world needn't be logically incoherent to be false.
I’m responding to the implications made by the thread starter. “How does God, an immaterial being, interact with the material world! That doesn’t make sense!”
How does it not make sense? That’s never explained. It’s just assumed.
Perpetual motion machines are logically coherent
You’re missing the point. How else would somebody argue that an immaterial being can’t interact with a material being? All we have is conceptual analysis. The best a person could do is show that this idea is logically incoherent.
The reason we rule these things out as possible is that our very well tested and highly successful physical theories would have to be wrong
You’re not off to a very good start. In no way does it follow that if an immaterial being can interact with a material being that therefore all physical theories are wrong. A non-sequitur. Please try again.

What’s ironic about you bringing up Quantum Mechanics and Einstein is that Max Planck, the father of Quantum Mechanics, believed that there was a matterless, energyless, and intelligent mind who was behind all matter and energy and who upheld all matter and energy. Do you have a better understanding of matter and energy than Max Planck?

I'm with Planck on this. I don't see the logical incoherence in the immaterial interacting with the material.
 
The idea of an immaterial being interacting with a material world needn't be logically incoherent to be false.
I’m responding to the implications made by the thread starter. “How does God, an immaterial being, interact with the material world! That doesn’t make sense!”
How does it not make sense? That’s never explained. It’s just assumed.
Perpetual motion machines are logically coherent
You’re missing the point. How else would somebody argue that an immaterial being can’t interact with a material being? All we have is conceptual analysis. The best a person could do is show that this idea is logically incoherent.
The reason we rule these things out as possible is that our very well tested and highly successful physical theories would have to be wrong
You’re not off to a very good start. In no way does it follow that if an immaterial being can interact with a material being that therefore all physical theories are wrong. A non-sequitur. Please try again.

What’s ironic about you bringing up Quantum Mechanics and Einstein is that Max Planck, the father of Quantum Mechanics, believed that there was a matterless, energyless, and intelligent mind who was behind all matter and energy and who upheld all matter and energy. Do you have a better understanding of matter and energy than Max Planck?

I'm with Planck on this. I don't see the logical incoherence in the immaterial interacting with the material.
All the information was in my post.

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

You don't get it? Too bad, so sad.
 
All the information was in my post.

You poorly regurgitated a popular-level of Quantum Mechanics, but none of it reinforced your original contention that the existence of an immaterial being being who is able to interact with material being would render all physical laws null.

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

You never wrote anything complicated. The problem is none of what you wrote actually addressed your original contention.

Since you don't seem to understand that what you wrote is a non-sequitur, then why don't you listen to Max Planck? Surely, Max Planck understood matter and energy? I mean, he was the father of Quantum Mechanics... You know, the thing you were just pretending to understand. Planck himself thought there was an immaterial mind behind and upholding matter and energy. Do you know something that he didn't? Lol. You're hilarious, kid. *tips fedora*
 
Ephesians, you are sounding rather pugnacious and smug here. I recommend that instead you read what Bilby wrote and reflect on it. He did answer the question on point to the OP.

You’ve arrived at a forum with a long history. To avoid embarassing yourself before your god for unearned pride, I recommend that you pause, and engage.

This forum is a place for discussion of ideas.

Bilby did not, indeed, write anything complicated. He laid it out very easy to digest. You should read it in good faith and think about what it means.

Welcome to the forum - but please don’t walk into the parlor like you’re walking onto a yacht. It is unbecoming.
 
Ephesians, you are sounding rather pugnacious and smug here. I recommend that instead you read what Bilby wrote and reflect on it. He did answer the question on point to the OP.

You’ve arrived at a forum with a long history. To avoid embarassing yourself before your god for unearned pride, I recommend that you pause, and engage.

This forum is a place for discussion of ideas.

Bilby did not, indeed, write anything complicated. He laid it out very easy to digest. You should read it in good faith and think about what it means.

Welcome to the forum - but please don’t walk into the parlor like you’re walking onto a yacht. It is unbecoming.

I did read what he wrote, but he never explained why the existence of an immaterial being who can interact with material being would make physical laws null. And Max Planck didn't see the issue either, which is why he had no problem thinking that all of matter and energy was created and upheld by an immaterial mind.

And you should learn how to spell embarrassing before you start... embarrassing yourself. *tips fidora*

I recommend that you pause, and engage.

Gonna cry?

 
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My dear boy, he did indeed explain that. You don’t see it?
Moreover, Max Planck died in, what, the 1940s? Do you honestly think nothing has been learned (or taught) since then?

I know how to spell, and I have zero embarrassment about my typing skills.

Gonna cry?
I am curious - if you spoke to your pastor and told them that this is the impression you are creating about chistians, do you suppose he would tell you to keep at it? If you prayed to your Jesus and said, “how’s this for a witness, kid? ~tips fedora~” would you feel good? Merely curious.
 
So, now it looks like the fundiegelical endgame: do all the things that are not really conducive to rational discussion to such an extent that you can go chest beating back to whatever hole was crawled out of with an "I went to the atheist place and they showed me the door because they are closed minded" Brown Star of courage.

Good job, you are successfully executing "shit on the floor". Flawless Victory.
 
Inappropriate behavior
So, now it looks like the fundiegelical endgame: do all the things that are not really conducive to rational discussion to such an extent that you can go chest beating back to whatever hole was crawled out of with an "I went to the atheist place and they showed me the door because they are closed minded" Brown Star of courage.

Good job, you are successfully executing "shit on the floor". Flawless Victory.
[violation of TOU removed]
 
Any point in replying to the new guy or is he banned?
 
Any point in replying to the new guy or is he banned?
Joined Monday, last seen Tuesday. They didn't last 24 hours of posting and I can't get his profile up.
 
Any point in replying to the new guy or is he banned?
I think humor is the best response when that much attitude is in the way. But kudos to Rhea. It became immediately obvious to me that we had a poster that wasn't into discussion so I took the humor route but hedged it with the same secular childish claims that we all once believed as truth. There isn't a difference between fantastic religious claims and fantastic non-religious claims so that was my strategy.
 
Any point in replying to the new guy or is he banned?
He is banned. When you see a user name that has a strikeout line through it, then that user is banned. There is a thread in “Staf and Administrative Announcements” that notes bannings.
 
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