• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

How long did Egyptian paganism survive?

DrZoidberg

Contributor
Joined
Nov 28, 2007
Messages
11,203
Location
Copenhagen
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
I'm reading up on ancient Egyptian religion and reading about how it started going into decline around 350 AD and then gradually died out. But it's religion. It's bound to have died out really slowly. The last Norse pagan shaman died sometime around 1870 in Estonia. I assume there was a similar situation with Egyptian paganism. But I'm having trouble finding sources about the last days of it. Anybody have a resource to share?

Cheers
 
I recall reading that there was a temple on an island in the Nile that was considered to be the last bastion of the Egyptian religion, and it was eventually stormed and destroyed by christians. This date is the 'official' end date. I will have to do some digging to find out more.
ETA wiki gives AD 550 as final 'closing' date, but does not otherwise corroborate my story.
 
I recall reading that there was a temple on an island in the Nile that was considered to be the last bastion of the Egyptian religion, and it was eventually stormed and destroyed by christians. This date is the 'official' end date. I will have to do some digging to find out more.
ETA wiki gives AD 550 as final 'closing' date, but does not otherwise corroborate my story.

Practice in private must have gone on for longer than that? The island is Philae. I've actually been there. It's a pretty large temple complex and only the center most building was converted to a Christian church. Must have been bizarre worshipping Jesus in a setting like that, surrounded by massive pharaonic statues. The Philae temple also has a hidden passage in the wall that allows the high priests to talk from behind the wall to create a super spooky effect. Apparently it was a secret to the believers. I can only assume that it was used to fool people into thinking they were talking to the gods. It's one of Egypt's better preserved temples and it has no restrictions to access. You're allowed to climb around on the monuments to your hearts desire.

I even have a picture of myself in Khufu's sarcophagus. The guard, who's only job it was was to prevent people from doing exactly that, suggested it. Crazy country.
 
The christians were always turning innappropriate things into churches. The Grand Mosque of Cordoba had a lame little church plunked into the middle of it, causing the King of Spain (I think Ferdinand) to criticize them for wrecking something unique and beautiful. The Senate Curia in Rome was also turned into a church. It is rumored that the bases of the columns of Old Saint Peter's in Rome (which fell down in an earthquake during the Rennaissance) were the capitals of columns from Roman temples.
 
Which Egyptian religions? They did invent new ones!

Hypatia, (born c. 355 ce—died March 415, Alexandria), Egyptian mathematician, astronomer, and philosopher who lived in a very turbulent era in Alexandria’s history. She is the earliest female mathematician of whose life and work reasonably detailed knowledge exists.

Hypatia was the daughter of Theon of Alexandria, himself a mathematician and astronomer and the last attested member of the Alexandrian Museum. Theon is best remembered for the part he played in the preservation of Euclid’s Elements, but he also wrote extensively, commenting on Ptolemy’s Almagest and Handy Tables. Hypatia continued his program, which was essentially a determined effort to preserve the Greek mathematical and astronomical heritage in extremely difficult times. She is credited with commentaries on Apollonius of Perga’s Conics (geometry) and Diophantus of Alexandria’s Arithmetic (number theory), as well as an astronomical table (possibly a revised version of Book III of her father’s commentary on the Almagest). These works, the only ones she is listed as having written, have been lost, although there have been attempts to reconstruct aspects of them. In producing her commentaries on Apollonius and Diophantus, she was pushing the program initiated by her father into more recent and more difficult areas.

She was, in her time, the world’s leading mathematician and astronomer, the only woman for whom such claim can be made. She was also a popular teacher and lecturer on philosophical topics of a less-specialist nature, attracting many loyal students and large audiences. Her philosophy was Neoplatonist and was thus seen as “pagan” at a time of bitter religious conflict between Christians (both orthodox and “heretical”), Jews, and pagans. Her Neoplatonism was concerned with the approach to the One, an underlying reality partially accessible via the human power of abstraction from the Platonic forms, themselves abstractions from the world of everyday reality. Her philosophy also led her to embrace a life of dedicated virginity.

Hypatia of Alexandria: murder [Credit: © Photos.com/Thinkstock]An early manifestation of the religious divide of the time was the razing of the Serapeum, the temple of the Greco-Egyptian god Serapis, by Theophilus, Alexandria’s bishop until his death in 412 ce. This event was perhaps the final end of the great Library of Alexandria, since the Serapeum may have contained some of the Library’s books. Theophilus, however, was friendly with Synesius, an ardent admirer and pupil of Hypatia, so she was not herself affected by this development but was permitted to pursue her intellectual endeavours unimpeded. With the deaths of Synesius and Theophilus and the accession of Cyril to the bishopric of Alexandria, however, this climate of tolerance lapsed, and shortly afterward Hypatia became the victim of a particularly brutal murder at the hands of a gang of Christian zealots. It remains a matter of vigorous debate how much the guilt of this atrocity is Cyril’s, but the affair made Hypatia a powerful feminist symbol and a figure of affirmation for intellectual endeavour in the face of ignorant prejudice. Her intellectual accomplishments alone were quite sufficient to merit the preservation and respect of her name, but sadly, the manner of her death added to it an even greater emphasis.

Michael Deakin
Britannica
 
The christians were always turning innappropriate things into churches. The Grand Mosque of Cordoba had a lame little church plunked into the middle of it, causing the King of Spain (I think Ferdinand) to criticize them for wrecking something unique and beautiful. The Senate Curia in Rome was also turned into a church. It is rumored that the bases of the columns of Old Saint Peter's in Rome (which fell down in an earthquake during the Rennaissance) were the capitals of columns from Roman temples.

I remember visiting the Pantheon in Rome and feeling aggrieved that it had been turned into a church. Grrr. But... perhaps it owes its survival to that.

- - - Updated - - -

Hypatia, (born c. 355 ce—died March 415, Alexandria), Egyptian mathematician, astronomer, and philosopher who lived in a very turbulent era in Alexandria’s history. She is the earliest female mathematician of whose life and work reasonably detailed knowledge exists.

Is that the Hypatia from the movie "Agora"? I like that movie.
 
I don't know how long it lasted, but when you tell a Christian that the religions of Egypt lasted longer than Christianity's been around, they look like they've seen a ghost. This is usually in response to the tried and failed argument that duration of time = Jesus wrote the Constitution.
 
I remember visiting the Pantheon in Rome and feeling aggrieved that it had been turned into a church. Grrr. But... perhaps it owes its survival to that.

It does, even though they still stole a lot of the bronze overlay to make that hideous thing that stands over St. Peter's tomb inside the Vatican. Doors of the Vatican, if I remember correctly came from the Senate House. When I did my tour of Rome, I made sure I knew as much about the ancient sites and what Christian church/redoubt etc had been slapped over on top of it.

I spent a lot of time at the Pantheon, enjoying the paganism of it.

- - - Updated - - -

Hypatia, (born c. 355 ce—died March 415, Alexandria), Egyptian mathematician, astronomer, and philosopher who lived in a very turbulent era in Alexandria’s history. She is the earliest female mathematician of whose life and work reasonably detailed knowledge exists.

Is that the Hypatia from the movie "Agora"? I like that movie.

Yes.

I don't know how long it lasted, but when you tell a Christian that the religions of Egypt lasted longer than Christianity's been around, they look like they've seen a ghost. This is usually in response to the tried and failed argument that duration of time = Jesus wrote the Constitution.

Or they get all jumpy because everyone knows ancient temples are evil.

Small town born woman at my office told me when she went into an ancient Mithraeum in the basement of a church in Rome (one I visited as well), she and another woman, who is a teacher of the classics and should know better, both told me how they could feel the "evil" and "dark forboding" there.

In a temple for Mithras. The ancient world's version of the free Masons.

Evil? Forboding? Really?

I felt nothing of the sort, only a sadness for what had passed before and in the ancient spring running under the Mithraeum, made an offering of a few coins to the old gods who the Christians still could not stamp out.
 
When the World Wrestling Federation gets its act together, Zeus v Jesus will not be allowed as Jesus does not meet match fitness standards.
 
I was reading recently about the Sphinx. One of the theories about how it lost its nose was that it was destroyed in the 14th century by a Sufi leader because locals were making sacrifices to it to ensure good crops. This would, if true, imply that at least some pagan practices were still alive at that time.
 
. The last Norse pagan shaman died sometime around 1870 in Estonia.Cheers
How do you know that?

School I think. May have been Lithuania. The Scandinavian countries (to my knowledge) never had persecution of pagans. The shift from Paganism to Christianity was extremely gradual. If at all, arguably. Our (Swedish) Christmas hasn't a trace of Christianity in it. We still call it it's Pagan name, Yule/Jul. And our main holiday is still Midsummer, which is outright a pagan festival. I know there's similarities in Russia to. They apparently have plenty of surviving Pagan customs, if not outright cults. But that's debatable considering their need to go underground during communism.

Anyhoo... So our Pagans never had to go into hiding, (as they had to do in Germany, France and Mediterranean countries). This means we can have a pretty accurate picture of the fall of Paganism. Paganism is centered around cults. Cults have members and Norse Pagan cults have shamans. So we can meansure Paganism by the number of active cults and shamans. Shamans, after all, has to have a community supporting them.

I did a quick Google and didn't find any direct reference, but what I remember from school was that the last active pagan cult was somewhere in the Baltics. And since these cults were mystery cults (what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas) so nobody has survived to tell anybody about what they did.
 
How do you know that?

School I think. May have been Lithuania. The Scandinavian countries (to my knowledge) never had persecution of pagans. The shift from Paganism to Christianity was extremely gradual. If at all, arguably. Our (Swedish) Christmas hasn't a trace of Christianity in it. We still call it it's Pagan name, Yule/Jul. And our main holiday is still Midsummer, which is outright a pagan festival. I know there's similarities in Russia to. They apparently have plenty of surviving Pagan customs, if not outright cults. But that's debatable considering their need to go underground during communism.

Anyhoo... So our Pagans never had to go into hiding, (as they had to do in Germany, France and Mediterranean countries). This means we can have a pretty accurate picture of the fall of Paganism. Paganism is centered around cults. Cults have members and Norse Pagan cults have shamans. So we can meansure Paganism by the number of active cults and shamans. Shamans, after all, has to have a community supporting them.

I did a quick Google and didn't find any direct reference, but what I remember from school was that the last active pagan cult was somewhere in the Baltics. And since these cults were mystery cults (what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas) so nobody has survived to tell anybody about what they did.
Ok...I was rather suspecting that they may have survived underground after that time up until the present day.
 
Ok...I was rather suspecting that they may have survived underground after that time up until the present day.

Well... what we know of pagan (pre-litterate) religion is that it evolved super fast. Much faster than litterate religion. I know the most about Greek and Roman religion and it's connection to Babylonian and Hittite religion. Just within a couple of generations gods could morph quite a bit. They could gain and lose aspects. Even symbols could switch around. Rituals certainly could. Although we know quite little about those. What this tells us that even though a pagan cult might theoretically have survived. It's pretty damn unlikely that it has anything but the merest similitude to anything in the past. "Asatru" is a wholly modern mady-upy religion.

And whatever valuable mystic or special knowledge the shamans might have possessed, science has probably long since caught up.
 
To be fair, all religions are wholly mady-upy. They differ by age; but I see no reason to consider old make-believe more worthy of consideration than brand new make-believe.

Asatru deserves exactly the same respect as any other religion or belief - none at all.
 
To be fair, all religions are wholly mady-upy. They differ by age; but I see no reason to consider old make-believe more worthy of consideration than brand new make-believe.

Asatru deserves exactly the same respect as any other religion or belief - none at all.

I'm an atheist. My interest in religion is like my interest in any social phenomenon, be it theme parks, evolution of pasta recipes or skin head culture of the 80'ies. It's interesting by itself simply because it is. But I care about what is true, ie what people actually believed. That is interesting to me. The fact that all religious beliefs in gods are by definition false doesn't change that. It matters that the beliefs of Norse Pagans of the 19'th century are different than the beliefs of the followers of Asatru, even though they claim to worship the same deities.
 
Ok...I was rather suspecting that they may have survived underground after that time up until the present day.

Well... what we know of pagan (pre-litterate) religion is that it evolved super fast. Much faster than litterate religion. I know the most about Greek and Roman religion and it's connection to Babylonian and Hittite religion. Just within a couple of generations gods could morph quite a bit. They could gain and lose aspects. Even symbols could switch around. Rituals certainly could. Although we know quite little about those. What this tells us that even though a pagan cult might theoretically have survived. It's pretty damn unlikely that it has anything but the merest similitude to anything in the past. "Asatru" is a wholly modern mady-upy religion.

And whatever valuable mystic or special knowledge the shamans might have possessed, science has probably long since caught up.

Fair call, but if it evolves so fast, and I think that's fair too , then how could anyone draw a line at 1870?
 
Well... what we know of pagan (pre-litterate) religion is that it evolved super fast. Much faster than litterate religion. I know the most about Greek and Roman religion and it's connection to Babylonian and Hittite religion. Just within a couple of generations gods could morph quite a bit. They could gain and lose aspects. Even symbols could switch around. Rituals certainly could. Although we know quite little about those. What this tells us that even though a pagan cult might theoretically have survived. It's pretty damn unlikely that it has anything but the merest similitude to anything in the past. "Asatru" is a wholly modern mady-upy religion.

And whatever valuable mystic or special knowledge the shamans might have possessed, science has probably long since caught up.

Fair call, but if it evolves so fast, and I think that's fair too , then how could anyone draw a line at 1870?

Evolution is step by step change. That assumes that there is something alive to evolve. Something that is kept alive through an unbroken chain of practitioners. What written sources we have about Norse Paganism are stuff inferred from Christian slagging them off. We have very few surviving Norse Pagan texts. Beowolf for instance was written down by Christians. The alienism and savageness of Beowolf was exaggerated. But the Christian who wrote Beowolf drew upon knowledge given to him from actual Norse Pagans. Even though it may have undergone some Chinese whispers. But there was a core there to infer from. In 1870 that living core of Norse Paganism died with the last Norse Pagan shaman. And we can never get it back. It's like the death of the last of a particular species of animal or plant.

But like I said before, Swedish Christianity borrowed very heavily from Norse Paganism, and never managed to suppress that Pagan religious practices entirely. They existed in parallel with Christianity back when Christianity died. But now when Christianity has died in Sweden, (from about 1950) what vestiges of Paganism we had died with it. And now it's gone. Now all religion is dead here.

Any Norse Pagan revival will be a similitude. It will be like the dinosaurs of Jurassic Park. They look the same, but with mostly chicken DNA.
 
In 1870 that living core of Norse Paganism died with the last Norse Pagan shaman. And we can never get it back. It's like the death of the last of a particular species of animal or plant.
I'm guessing, and it's a guess, that christians tell us that the last shaman died, and that was the end of it. If that is the case then is that credible?
 
Back
Top Bottom