HOW NOT TO DIE Michael Greger MD

[EricK]

Greger says to get rid of the flesh and advocates vegan eating. But he's not a nut in this regard. His message is to move away from the typical western diet, and to primarily jettison the junk food. He also goes to lengths to explain that things like the poultry we eat today is not the same as the poultry we ate three or four generations ago. When I was a kid most people around me raised their own chickens. The meat wasn't impregnated with a phosphate/brine/salt broth. There were no antibiotics. The chickens roamed and ate bugs and grass and would rip hell out of your garden if they got the chance. Today's poultry isn't close to the same thing, and the same goes for meat, pork, and even fish.

Lol. Plants are nothing like they used to be!
Here's a recent article about it: http://www.sciencealert.com/here-s-...ables-looked-like-before-we-domesticated-them

This is (one reason) why I find it hard to believe that vegetables should be the main part, let alone the only part, of the human diet. Until relatively recently, it would be incredibly difficult to get enough nutrition from vegetables. The fact that we now can says a lot about human ingenuity, but not much about whether we should be eating them.

To get my B12 I'm presently using a bit of nutritional yeast, which as a side effect jumps the protein intake. So far all is well and after a month I've noticed that I don't react to cruciferous vegetables like I did before. They were a class of veggies I could not eat because of MCAS.

And where would our ancestors have got their B12 from?

This is absolutely, positively incorrect. I know many instances where a 'plant based' only diet is not only unhealthy, but could kill.

If you mean like peanut allergies then certainly. People have all types of sensitivities and allergies, yours truly included.

Today's fare:

Flax
Oats
Hemp seed
Chia seed
Pepitas
Cashews
Walnuts
raisins
Broccoli
Black Beans
Capers
Apple
Pear
Kiwi
Purple cabbage
Tart Cherry juice
WW pasta

And this is another reason. To get adequate nutrition you need a wide variety of plants, which nowadays you can get because we have huge amounts of international trade, and have found ways to get seasonal goods all year round. How easily can you construct a year round nutritious diet consisting solely of plants which grow in one plant of the world?

Another point is that many of these plants, and others that people eat, require a lot of preparation to make them edible - some of them even require preparation to prevent them being poisonous! And the situation would have been even worse during the evolution of our species before we domesticated plants. Again, this says a lot about our ingenuity, but tends to go against the theory that we are meant to eat plants.

And yet another point is how bad so many plants taste - and again the situation was worse before we selectively bred them to taste better. This is surely a sign that they are not meant to be our primary source of food.

And one more for good measure: most vegetable matter ranges from hard to digest to impossible to digest - again suggestive that it is not the main thing we should be eating.

Meat, on the other hand, is delicious, available all year round, provides all the nutrition you need, is very easily digestible, and isn't really all that different to the meat our ancestors would have eaten.

Also did my standard exercises, which Greger talks about, always citing his advice with scientific data.

Well done.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

The larger lesson I'm taking from the book and reading around is that neither zero-meat nor zero-carb eating is ideal. What is ideal for human health is zero-refined/processed/junk such as defines the typical western diet. A friend, for example, thinks it is healthy to eat hot dogs so long as you don't eat the bun, his idea of healthy low carb. Some people just don't get it and never will.

Greger's larger point, perhaps his main point (being a doctor) is that eating plant-based reverses and prevents the chronic diseases like heart disease, hypertension, diabetes, even cancer, that affect populations that take on the western diet, regardless their ancestry.

 

[fromderinside]

The larger lesson I'm taking from the book and reading around is that neither zero-meat nor zero-carb eating is ideal. What is ideal for human health is zero-refined/processed/junk such as defines the typical western diet. A friend, for example, thinks it is healthy to eat hot dogs so long as you don't eat the bun, his idea of healthy low carb. Some people just don't get it and never will.

Greger's larger point, perhaps his main point (being a doctor) is that eating plant-based reverses and prevents the chronic diseases like heart disease, hypertension, diabetes, even cancer, that affect populations that take on the western diet, regardless their ancestry.

I make distinctions between refined and high bonding refined. Things that include chlorine and sodium or potassium as part of the refined product or process seems not a good choice, while more natural natural refinement like stone ground or steel cut or cut up and packaged for convenience seems perfectly healthy. I'm on board with some GMO technology that does no more than keep fruit fresh and nutritious longer. GMO tolerance to pesticides don't seem like a good ideas on the face of it. Going all gaga over heritage products can be a real bother and turn off when more color, taste, and such, bred in to produce make sense.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

The larger lesson I'm taking from the book and reading around is that neither zero-meat nor zero-carb eating is ideal. What is ideal for human health is zero-refined/processed/junk such as defines the typical western diet. A friend, for example, thinks it is healthy to eat hot dogs so long as you don't eat the bun, his idea of healthy low carb. Some people just don't get it and never will.

Greger's larger point, perhaps his main point (being a doctor) is that eating plant-based reverses and prevents the chronic diseases like heart disease, hypertension, diabetes, even cancer, that affect populations that take on the western diet, regardless their ancestry.

I make distinctions between refined and high bonding refined. Things that include chlorine and sodium or potassium as part of the refined product or process seems not a good choice, while more natural natural refinement like stone ground or steel cut or cut up and packaged for convenience seems perfectly healthy. I'm on board with some GMO technology that does no more than keep fruit fresh and nutritious longer. GMO tolerance to pesticides don't seem like a good ideas on the face of it. Going all gaga over heritage products can be a real bother and turn off when more color, taste, and such, bred in to produce make sense.

100% agree. We're not talking religion. We're talking health.

There is a difference in how the body reacts to eating wheat berries or eating whole wheat flour. It primarily involves getting fiber to the flora in the lower colon so they can do their duty.

And yes, many people have a misconception about GMO foods. They are primarily foods that have been engineered to withstand herbicides, so they're treated heavily with herbicides. That doesn't seem like a good thing to me.

It's becoming apparent to me that high veg or high meat really doesn't matter. What matters is not being overweight, staying active and eliminating refined and highly processed garbage from one's plate. Poultry is healthy to eat, but the garbage sold as poultry in your grocery store is so full of crap that it is actually processed food. Same goes for other meats and even fish.

 

[Malintent]

The problem I have with GMO foods is how the farmer treats them.. not the genetic makeup itself. These farmers that use pesticide resistant crops can (and do) pour the pesticides so heavily on their crops, because they can, and "organic" pesticides are not regulated insofar as how much can be used. So I buy an 'organic' apple from the grocery store, and it is soaked in pesticides... I feel like I can't be sure it is all washed off.

The danger to people with consuming pesticide resistant crops is not some sci-fi "the fly" genetic mutation scary thing... its all the damn pesticides they soak them with.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

The problem I have with GMO foods is how the farmer treats them.. not the genetic makeup itself. These farmers that use pesticide resistant crops can (and do) pour the pesticides so heavily on their crops, because they can, and "organic" pesticides are not regulated insofar as how much can be used. So I buy an 'organic' apple from the grocery store, and it is soaked in pesticides... I feel like I can't be sure it is all washed off.

The danger to people with consuming pesticide resistant crops is not some sci-fi "the fly" genetic mutation scary thing... its all the damn pesticides they soak them with.

Right. And if they're using systemics it's in the food, not on it. The best and cheapest way to get rid of pesticides on (not in) foods is a 10% salt water bath. Nothing out there works better no matter the claims.

 

[bilby]

The problem I have with GMO foods is how the farmer treats them.. not the genetic makeup itself. These farmers that use pesticide resistant crops can (and do) pour the pesticides so heavily on their crops, because they can, and "organic" pesticides are not regulated insofar as how much can be used. So I buy an 'organic' apple from the grocery store, and it is soaked in pesticides... I feel like I can't be sure it is all washed off.

The danger to people with consuming pesticide resistant crops is not some sci-fi "the fly" genetic mutation scary thing... its all the damn pesticides they soak them with.

Right. And if they're using systemics it's in the food, not on it. The best and cheapest way to get rid of pesticides on (not in) foods is a 10% salt water bath. Nothing out there works better no matter the claims.

But salt is a pesticide.

You can't (logically) rail against 'pesticides' as a class; it is a HUGE category, and contains some incredibly dangerous things, and some basically harmless things. And in all cases, it is the combination of identity and dose that is necessary to determine whether there is the possibility (or probability) of harm.

It is one thing to say "I refuse to leave the house if a tornado has touched down within two miles"; it is quite another thing to say "I refuse to leave the house if there is weather". "I refuse to eat food which has been grown using pesticides" is more like the latter claim than the former.

 

[scombrid]

avoiding the chronic illnesses that plague post-industrial society.

Excessive carbs. Inadequate veg and fruit. Oversupply of calories while malnourished.

Worse than having meat included in the diet.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

avoiding the chronic illnesses that plague post-industrial society.

Excessive carbs. Inadequate veg and fruit. Oversupply of calories while malnourished.

Worse than having meat included in the diet.

Yep. What's really sad is seeing people turn to shit like "Ensure," thinking it's something healthy. That shit is certain to make you ill. Kudos to marketing and human ignorance.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Right. And if they're using systemics it's in the food, not on it. The best and cheapest way to get rid of pesticides on (not in) foods is a 10% salt water bath. Nothing out there works better no matter the claims.

But salt is a pesticide.

You can't (logically) rail against 'pesticides' as a class; it is a HUGE category, and contains some incredibly dangerous things, and some basically harmless things. And in all cases, it is the combination of identity and dose that is necessary to determine whether there is the possibility (or probability) of harm.

That is accurate. The ones you'd probably not sprinkle on your food, neither would I.

 

[Malintent]

Right. And if they're using systemics it's in the food, not on it. The best and cheapest way to get rid of pesticides on (not in) foods is a 10% salt water bath. Nothing out there works better no matter the claims.

But salt is a pesticide.

You can't (logically) rail against 'pesticides' as a class; it is a HUGE category, and contains some incredibly dangerous things, and some basically harmless things. And in all cases, it is the combination of identity and dose that is necessary to determine whether there is the possibility (or probability) of harm.

It is one thing to say "I refuse to leave the house if a tornado has touched down within two miles"; it is quite another thing to say "I refuse to leave the house if there is weather". "I refuse to eat food which has been grown using pesticides" is more like the latter claim than the former.

The (clearly stated, IMO) issue is not simply the use of pesticides... it is HOW the farmers are able to use the pesticides now with no regard for human safety, because it does not affect the appearance of the crop. Making matters worse, "organic" pesticides (again, as I stated) have NO dosage limitation.

So, I am not sure what this post I am replying to was about... something not said by anyone?

 

[Playball40]

Ok, so now I really do have to speak out. ENSURE is saving my child's life and I would really appreciate it if you do not imply that I am somehow 'ignorant'. I don't consider saving my daughter's life as ignorant. Your book and your entire thread is pretty much crap. "Food" is neither 'good' nor 'bad' as it has no moral standing. Some foods provide more nutrients than others - THAT IS IT. And when a person cannot get the proper nutrients (including FAT) from their food, Ensure, Pediasure and Boost IS a viable option.

Excessive carbs. Inadequate veg and fruit. Oversupply of calories while malnourished.

Worse than having meat included in the diet.

Yep. What's really sad is seeing people turn to shit like "Ensure," thinking it's something healthy. That shit is certain to make you ill. Kudos to marketing and human ignorance.

 

[bilby]

But salt is a pesticide.

You can't (logically) rail against 'pesticides' as a class; it is a HUGE category, and contains some incredibly dangerous things, and some basically harmless things. And in all cases, it is the combination of identity and dose that is necessary to determine whether there is the possibility (or probability) of harm.

It is one thing to say "I refuse to leave the house if a tornado has touched down within two miles"; it is quite another thing to say "I refuse to leave the house if there is weather". "I refuse to eat food which has been grown using pesticides" is more like the latter claim than the former.

The (clearly stated, IMO) issue is not simply the use of pesticides... it is HOW the farmers are able to use the pesticides now with no regard for human safety, because it does not affect the appearance of the crop. Making matters worse, "organic" pesticides (again, as I stated) have NO dosage limitation.

So, I am not sure what this post I am replying to was about... something not said by anyone?

Then you should learn to read.

Joedad suggested soaking in salt solution to remove pesticides.

As salt is, itself, a pesticide, that is clearly not going to work; unless we are more specific about which pesticides we wish to remove.

My post was a direct reply to his (which I quoted). As it had fuck all to do with you, I am puzzled as to why you felt the need to question my response to him.

Do you often interrupt conversations you are not part of to tell people that you are not involved in their conversation?

 

[Malintent]

The (clearly stated, IMO) issue is not simply the use of pesticides... it is HOW the farmers are able to use the pesticides now with no regard for human safety, because it does not affect the appearance of the crop. Making matters worse, "organic" pesticides (again, as I stated) have NO dosage limitation.

So, I am not sure what this post I am replying to was about... something not said by anyone?

Then you should learn to read.

Joedad suggested soaking in salt solution to remove pesticides.

As salt is, itself, a pesticide, that is clearly not going to work; unless we are more specific about which pesticides we wish to remove.

My post was a direct reply to his (which I quoted). As it had fuck all to do with you, I am puzzled as to why you felt the need to question my response to him.

Do you often interrupt conversations you are not part of to tell people that you are not involved in their conversation?

If you are new to internet forums, then I will explain... this is a group conversation.. we are all involved. It is a public dialog. Get over it, get out, or take what you would like to be a private conversation to a private venue... this site offers private chat for that, if you like. Lesson over.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Ok, so now I really do have to speak out. ENSURE is saving my child's life and I would really appreciate it if you do not imply that I am somehow 'ignorant'. I don't consider saving my daughter's life as ignorant. Your book and your entire thread is pretty much crap. "Food" is neither 'good' nor 'bad' as it has no moral standing. Some foods provide more nutrients than others - THAT IS IT. And when a person cannot get the proper nutrients (including FAT) from their food, Ensure, Pediasure and Boost IS a viable option.

Yep. What's really sad is seeing people turn to shit like "Ensure," thinking it's something healthy. That shit is certain to make you ill. Kudos to marketing and human ignorance.

Diets vary. My own diet is proof of that, but that does not negate the fact that plant based diets cure and reverse chronic disease directly caused by western type eating.

My mother used and currently my Mother in Law uses this garbage called ensure. They substitute it for actual food which their bodies need more than ever. Perhaps they do it because they are too lazy or no longer able (clearly not the case) to prepare actual food. But for certain they use it because they walked into a doc's office and he suggested it. So now instead of supplementing with it they actually use it for food, which hastens their death and disability.

Or maybe in their case it's the best they can do, a kind of inevitable dietary change that extends life (or death) by some years whereas said person would have been buried generations ago. But I think that's not it. I think stuff like ensure is just part of the western diet that causes disease. But if it works for you then continue to use it.

And I would be interested in discussing your situation just out of curiosity. I'm always trying to learn when it comes to health.

 

[skepticalbip]

Ok, so now I really do have to speak out. ENSURE is saving my child's life and I would really appreciate it if you do not imply that I am somehow 'ignorant'. I don't consider saving my daughter's life as ignorant. Your book and your entire thread is pretty much crap. "Food" is neither 'good' nor 'bad' as it has no moral standing. Some foods provide more nutrients than others - THAT IS IT. And when a person cannot get the proper nutrients (including FAT) from their food, Ensure, Pediasure and Boost IS a viable option.

Diets vary. My own diet is proof of that, but that does not negate the fact that plant based diets cure and reverse chronic disease directly caused by western type eating.

My mother used and currently my Mother in Law uses this garbage called ensure. They substitute it for actual food which their bodies need more than ever. Perhaps they do it because they are too lazy or no longer able (clearly not the case) to prepare actual food. But for certain they use it because they walked into a doc's office and he suggested it. So now instead of supplementing with it they actually use it for food, which hastens their death and disability.

Or maybe in their case it's the best they can do, a kind of inevitable dietary change that extends life (or death) by some years whereas said person would have been buried generations ago. But I think that's not it. I think stuff like ensure is just part of the western diet that causes disease. But if it works for you then continue to use it.

And I would be interested in discussing your situation just out of curiosity. I'm always trying to learn when it comes to health.

Just personal opinion but I think that the west obsesses over diet sometimes to the point of absurdity. They seem to believe that diet = health and often freak out over anything they hear is "bad for you". They certainly seem to fall for any fad diet that is suggested by some "expert".

Certainly diet is important but primarily for assuring that the body gets enough fiber, protein, vitamins, etc. Again personal opinion but more important than diet (once the body's requirement of nutrition is met) is exercise. This doesn't mean having to join a gym but to engage in activities that keep the muscles toned, including enough aerobic activity to elevate pulse and respiration rate.

It is purely anecdotal evidence but, of the old people I have known, the sedentary ones (even if they were very careful about diet) deteriorated much faster than those who were very active (even if they ate "junk food"). I certainly didn't know Jack LaLanne and wouldn't suggest that anyone would need to maintain the strenuous exercise program he maintained into his nineties but he was able to do more at age 90 than the average person can at 45.

 

[Playball40]

You know nothing about diet and nutrition, let alone how the human body works. Your posts are condescending and insulting. "too lazy to prepare actual food?" Really? Did it occur to you that people going through chemotherapy need it to live? Or that people, for WHATEVER REASON, cannot get enough calories and nutrients to thrive?

Ok, so now I really do have to speak out. ENSURE is saving my child's life and I would really appreciate it if you do not imply that I am somehow 'ignorant'. I don't consider saving my daughter's life as ignorant. Your book and your entire thread is pretty much crap. "Food" is neither 'good' nor 'bad' as it has no moral standing. Some foods provide more nutrients than others - THAT IS IT. And when a person cannot get the proper nutrients (including FAT) from their food, Ensure, Pediasure and Boost IS a viable option.

Diets vary. My own diet is proof of that, but that does not negate the fact that plant based diets cure and reverse chronic disease directly caused by western type eating.

My mother used and currently my Mother in Law uses this garbage called ensure. They substitute it for actual food which their bodies need more than ever. Perhaps they do it because they are too lazy or no longer able (clearly not the case) to prepare actual food. But for certain they use it because they walked into a doc's office and he suggested it. So now instead of supplementing with it they actually use it for food, which hastens their death and disability.

Or maybe in their case it's the best they can do, a kind of inevitable dietary change that extends life (or death) by some years whereas said person would have been buried generations ago. But I think that's not it. I think stuff like ensure is just part of the western diet that causes disease. But if it works for you then continue to use it.

And I would be interested in discussing your situation just out of curiosity. I'm always trying to learn when it comes to health.

 

[Playball40]

You are right. Why western society has this need to moralize diet is beyond me.

Diets vary. My own diet is proof of that, but that does not negate the fact that plant based diets cure and reverse chronic disease directly caused by western type eating.

My mother used and currently my Mother in Law uses this garbage called ensure. They substitute it for actual food which their bodies need more than ever. Perhaps they do it because they are too lazy or no longer able (clearly not the case) to prepare actual food. But for certain they use it because they walked into a doc's office and he suggested it. So now instead of supplementing with it they actually use it for food, which hastens their death and disability.

Or maybe in their case it's the best they can do, a kind of inevitable dietary change that extends life (or death) by some years whereas said person would have been buried generations ago. But I think that's not it. I think stuff like ensure is just part of the western diet that causes disease. But if it works for you then continue to use it.

And I would be interested in discussing your situation just out of curiosity. I'm always trying to learn when it comes to health.

Just personal opinion but I think that the west obsesses over diet sometimes to the point of absurdity. They seem to believe that diet = health and often freak out over anything they hear is "bad for you". They certainly seem to fall for any fad diet that is suggested by some "expert".

Certainly diet is important but primarily for assuring that the body gets enough fiber, protein, vitamins, etc. Again personal opinion but more important than diet (once the body's requirement of nutrition is met) is exercise. This doesn't mean having to join a gym but to engage in activities that keep the muscles toned, including enough aerobic activity to elevate pulse and respiration rate.

It is purely anecdotal evidence but, of the old people I have known, the sedentary ones (even if they were very careful about diet) deteriorated much faster than those who were very active (even if they ate "junk food"). I certainly didn't know Jack LaLanne and wouldn't suggest that anyone would need to maintain the strenuous exercise program he maintained into his nineties but he was able to do more at age 90 than the average person can at 45.

 

[bilby]

Then you should learn to read.

Joedad suggested soaking in salt solution to remove pesticides.

As salt is, itself, a pesticide, that is clearly not going to work; unless we are more specific about which pesticides we wish to remove.

My post was a direct reply to his (which I quoted). As it had fuck all to do with you, I am puzzled as to why you felt the need to question my response to him.

Do you often interrupt conversations you are not part of to tell people that you are not involved in their conversation?

If you are new to internet forums, then I will explain... this is a group conversation.. we are all involved. It is a public dialog. Get over it, get out, or take what you would like to be a private conversation to a private venue... this site offers private chat for that, if you like. Lesson over.

You have missed the point, so I will try to explain it again for you.

You interrupted (which is fine, because it is a public forum) to say that you didn't know what the post you replied to was about (Fair enough, I can clarify that for you) because it was a response to something not said by anyone (which is fucking insane, because it was a quoted reply to a post - a post that was nothing to do with you).

Do you often interrupt a conversation between two people to tell the one who is replying that he is replying to nobody?

 

[TV and credit cards]

I was/am a fan of The China Study which seems similar to How Not To Die.
I was vegan for about five months until a job/move disrupted it. For me the best part was the psychological change. As I progressed meat and dairy became less appealing, particularly the sight of raw meat and melted cheese. Beans and mushrooms started to satisfy me in the same way meat did. I was eating more and loosing weight. Chopping vegetables became an almost daily occurrence. Even feeling somewhat hungry on a regular basis I came to terms with. This took awhile until I realized (or convinced myself) what I was feeling as a carnivore was something between full and stuffed all the time. Further, I began to look at food as sustenance and not a source of happiness. I still enjoyed life without meat and ice cream, even my beloved breakfast foods. I didn't feel like I was missing out on the party.
My cholesterol dropped within weeks and I was off the meds. I felt wonderful. Like I was born again in the produce isle. My weight did level off after loosing about 25 pounds. I believe I was overdoing it with the potatoes and pasta.
I'm back to my old weight now and am planning to get back on the wagon. I intent to follow Rip Esselstyn's Engine 2 Diet. I still don't eat dairy. I eat about half as much meat as I used to. I have a physical coming up at the end of the month and am concerned about what the blood test results may show. I've been eating healthier lately. I feel like I'm cramming for my blood test.