HOW NOT TO DIE Michael Greger MD

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Lucky you.
I've been lectured to at a party by a vegan for wearing a leather belt. Exactly because it offended her veganism. Then she found out they were serving ice cream and went to lecture the hostess about milk being a maltreatment of cows.

Veganism is probably as encompassing a label as atheist, but it does include those who object to all forms of subjugating animals to man's needs. Food, clothing, goat-drawn carts, dog racing, pets and putting hamsters inside those plastic soccer balls then giving your kids mini-golf putters.

I have heard the rally chant, "Milk is Murder!" more often than I care for.

That's actually funny. Hope I can meet those loons one day. Unknowingly however, they may be on to something. Eating things like meat and milk that are high on the food chain raises the pollutant level in the body. That should be obvious to me but I always thought eating meat, dairy, fish, poultry was eating something with less pesticide than a conventional plant crop. But that is not the case.

 

[spikepipsqueak]

Vegetarianism is about removing meat from your diet.
Veganism is about being nice to animals

I understand their logic, but it has always seemed to me that vegans have their thinking arseabout.

Avoid steak and leather by all means, but eggs, milk and wool are products which don't necessitate the mistreatment of the source animal. AND THEY DON'T HAVE TO DIE.

About diabetes, overeating is a separate issue. Even if they included sugar cane in that vegetable matter diet, it would be hard to include enough to make a problem for the pancreas. Refining sugars and other carbs makes it really easy to eat and eat and eat without ever seeing anything nourishing.

A properly varied vegie diet makes including all the trace elements more likely. Or you could just eat a little meat, off a healthy pasture, with your good vegetables and make it certain.

 

[untermensche]

How many years would doing this squeeze out and would they be worth living?

Many meat eaters have lived into their 90's.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

How many years would doing this squeeze out and would they be worth living?

Many meat eaters have lived into their 90's.

The implication of the book is certainly that meatless eating leads to longer life and less chronic disease, so that would certainly mean "years worth living." And nowhere in the book that I can recall - so far - does Greger advocate ethical veganism. I don't even recall his mentioning it.

Here is one link that may help answer your question:

Increased Lifespan From Beans

And I'm finding it impossible to overeat on this diet. On many days the lunch I carry to work does not get eaten completely and I end up bringing it in the next day. Same for meals at home. Eating the whole plant and not refined parts thereof is not what the vast, vast majority of people do.

It also takes longer to eat as you can't cram down a lot of calories quickly. For a given lifestyle this would be a serious disadvantage.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Avoid steak and leather by all means, but eggs, milk and wool are products which don't necessitate the mistreatment of the source animal. AND THEY DON'T HAVE TO DIE.

Most of the vegans i get into arguments with are not just concerned about the animals dying, it's the whole idea of an animal's existance being subjugated to human needs.
They don't want cattle slaughtered for the same reasons they don't want sheep to be sheared or dogs to be pets or birds to sell cereal or tigers to be in zoos.

It's all one big 'animals left alone' ideology.

 

[untermensche]

How many years would doing this squeeze out and would they be worth living?

Many meat eaters have lived into their 90's.

The implication of the book is certainly that meatless eating leads to longer life and less chronic disease, so that would certainly mean "years worth living." And nowhere in the book that I can recall - so far - does Greger advocate ethical veganism. I don't even recall his mentioning it.

Here is one link that may help answer your question:

Increased Lifespan From Beans

And I'm finding it impossible to overeat on this diet. On many days the lunch I carry to work does not get eaten completely and I end up bringing it in the next day. Same for meals at home. Eating the whole plant and not refined parts thereof is not what the vast, vast majority of people do.

It also takes longer to eat as you can't cram down a lot of calories quickly. For a given lifestyle this would be a serious disadvantage.

The question is: How do you feel?

If you feel better then it is good for you.

But the idea that everybody will benefit from the same diet is not a certainty.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

The implication of the book is certainly that meatless eating leads to longer life and less chronic disease, so that would certainly mean "years worth living." And nowhere in the book that I can recall - so far - does Greger advocate ethical veganism. I don't even recall his mentioning it.

Here is one link that may help answer your question:

Increased Lifespan From Beans

And I'm finding it impossible to overeat on this diet. On many days the lunch I carry to work does not get eaten completely and I end up bringing it in the next day. Same for meals at home. Eating the whole plant and not refined parts thereof is not what the vast, vast majority of people do.

It also takes longer to eat as you can't cram down a lot of calories quickly. For a given lifestyle this would be a serious disadvantage.

The question is: How do you feel?

If you feel better then it is good for you.

But the idea that everybody will benefit from the same diet is not a certainty.

Based on all the scientific data it IS certain beyond question that everybody WILL benefit from a plant based diet, and that's one of his main talking points. He makes the case that it is like saying that it is not certain that everybody WILL benefit by a cessation of smoking, when in scientific fact everyone certainly will benefit from a cessation of smoking. Somewhere he makes the statement that adopting a plant based diet is today's health equivalent of stopping smoking.

And I feel great. Mondays are my weigh-in days where I jump on a scale at work. Am hoping to hit the mid 180s tomorrow, which will mean I've lost about 2.5 pounds per week, on my way to a total of 15/20 pounds. Am also expecting some side effects like improved cholesterol levels, lower blood sugar and BP, etc. when my next physical comes along in May.

 

[EricK]

The question is: How do you feel?

If you feel better then it is good for you.

But the idea that everybody will benefit from the same diet is not a certainty.

Based on all the scientific data it IS certain beyond question that everybody WILL benefit from a plant based diet, and that's one of his main talking points. He makes the case that it is like saying that it is not certain that everybody WILL benefit by a cessation of smoking, when in scientific fact everyone certainly will benefit from a cessation of smoking. Somewhere he makes the statement that adopting a plant based diet is today's health equivalent of stopping smoking.

And I feel great. Mondays are my weigh-in days where I jump on a scale at work. Am hoping to hit the mid 180s tomorrow, which will mean I've lost about 2.5 pounds per week, on my way to a total of 15/20 pounds. Am also expecting some side effects like improved cholesterol levels, lower blood sugar and BP, etc. when my next physical comes along in May.

But those are exactly the same side effects reported by people who eat no plants whatsoever (see eg http://myzerocarblife.jamesdhogan.c...nly-meat-and-eggs-did-this-to-my-cholesterol/). So it's certainly not meat which is the cause of increased weight, high cholesterol, high BP, high blood sugar etc.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Based on all the scientific data it IS certain beyond question that everybody WILL benefit from a plant based diet, and that's one of his main talking points. He makes the case that it is like saying that it is not certain that everybody WILL benefit by a cessation of smoking, when in scientific fact everyone certainly will benefit from a cessation of smoking. Somewhere he makes the statement that adopting a plant based diet is today's health equivalent of stopping smoking.

And I feel great. Mondays are my weigh-in days where I jump on a scale at work. Am hoping to hit the mid 180s tomorrow, which will mean I've lost about 2.5 pounds per week, on my way to a total of 15/20 pounds. Am also expecting some side effects like improved cholesterol levels, lower blood sugar and BP, etc. when my next physical comes along in May.

But those are exactly the same side effects reported by people who eat no plants whatsoever (see eg http://myzerocarblife.jamesdhogan.c...nly-meat-and-eggs-did-this-to-my-cholesterol/). So it's certainly not meat which is the cause of increased weight, high cholesterol, high BP, high blood sugar etc.

Whatever works for a given person, so long as people are using good science. If my numbers come back screwy after all my work I'll have to give that diet a try. Sounds delicious.

I did check out one of the links about cholesterol medication and I agree that cholesterol meds are absolutely not needed in 99.999% of cases, same as diabetes or BP meds.

 

[bilby]

The question is: How do you feel?

If you feel better then it is good for you.

But the idea that everybody will benefit from the same diet is not a certainty.

Based on all the scientific data it IS certain beyond question that everybody WILL benefit from a plant based diet, and that's one of his main talking points. He makes the case that it is like saying that it is not certain that everybody WILL benefit by a cessation of smoking, when in scientific fact everyone certainly will benefit from a cessation of smoking.

That's not a fact.

A small number of people (some of whom I know) benefit psychologically from smoking to such an extent that it lengthens their lives through the reduced tendency to suicide.

While it is certainly true that the vast majority of people will benefit by not smoking, it is (like pretty much any generalisation about human health) not a 100% absolute fact for all people.

Somewhere he makes the statement that adopting a plant based diet is today's health equivalent of stopping smoking.

And I feel great. Mondays are my weigh-in days where I jump on a scale at work. Am hoping to hit the mid 180s tomorrow, which will mean I've lost about 2.5 pounds per week, on my way to a total of 15/20 pounds. Am also expecting some side effects like improved cholesterol levels, lower blood sugar and BP, etc. when my next physical comes along in May.

That's good to hear. I shall add it to the LONG list of things people do that makes them feel so great that they assume everyone else would benefit, and should do it. Some of the items on that list may well apply to almost everybody; But so far I don't think there is a single one that includes every single human being. And of course, some of these things are actively harmful - but they make people feel great, so they inspire evangelical zeal, despite any disadvantages that they may have.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Based on all the scientific data it IS certain beyond question that everybody WILL benefit from a plant based diet, and that's one of his main talking points. He makes the case that it is like saying that it is not certain that everybody WILL benefit by a cessation of smoking, when in scientific fact everyone certainly will benefit from a cessation of smoking.

That's not a fact.

A small number of people (some of whom I know) benefit psychologically from smoking to such an extent that it lengthens their lives through the reduced tendency to suicide.

While it is certainly true that the vast majority of people will benefit by not smoking, it is (like pretty much any generalisation about human health) not a 100% absolute fact for all people.

Somewhere he makes the statement that adopting a plant based diet is today's health equivalent of stopping smoking.

And I feel great. Mondays are my weigh-in days where I jump on a scale at work. Am hoping to hit the mid 180s tomorrow, which will mean I've lost about 2.5 pounds per week, on my way to a total of 15/20 pounds. Am also expecting some side effects like improved cholesterol levels, lower blood sugar and BP, etc. when my next physical comes along in May.

That's good to hear. I shall add it to the LONG list of things people do that makes them feel so great that they assume everyone else would benefit, and should do it. Some of the items on that list may well apply to almost everybody; But so far I don't think there is a single one that includes every single human being. And of course, some of these things are actively harmful - but they make people feel great, so they inspire evangelical zeal, despite any disadvantages that they may have.

It's also a well documented fact that people who smoke never develop Parkinson's disease. Something about the nicotine I think, and it even works for people exposed to second hand smoke. So those things certainly happen. But I don't think that we're saying that if 100% of us smoked we'd all be healthier.

I've been looking at low and zero carb eating and this link is about the best discussion. It focuses on the Atkins type eating.

Atkins Diet: What's behind the claims? Mayo Clinic

It basically says that maintaining proper weight, exercising and eating wholesome food is healthy. No surprises there.

 

[untermensche]

The question is: How do you feel?

If you feel better then it is good for you.

But the idea that everybody will benefit from the same diet is not a certainty.

Based on all the scientific data it IS certain beyond question that everybody WILL benefit from a plant based diet, and that's one of his main talking points. He makes the case that it is like saying that it is not certain that everybody WILL benefit by a cessation of smoking, when in scientific fact everyone certainly will benefit from a cessation of smoking. Somewhere he makes the statement that adopting a plant based diet is today's health equivalent of stopping smoking.

And I feel great. Mondays are my weigh-in days where I jump on a scale at work. Am hoping to hit the mid 180s tomorrow, which will mean I've lost about 2.5 pounds per week, on my way to a total of 15/20 pounds. Am also expecting some side effects like improved cholesterol levels, lower blood sugar and BP, etc. when my next physical comes along in May.

Scientific data never says anything about everyone.

It can only say things about the people studied.

Which may apply to others or not.

 

[Malintent]

How many years would doing this squeeze out and would they be worth living?

Many meat eaters have lived into their 90's.

I tell my wife, "I'm not spending 1 miserable hour of my life at the gym, just to live 15 slightly less miserable minutes longer"

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

How many years would doing this squeeze out and would they be worth living?

Many meat eaters have lived into their 90's.

I tell my wife, "I'm not spending 1 miserable hour of my life at the gym, just to live 15 slightly less miserable minutes longer"

Well, most people who go to the gym don't eat properly. So they've already handicapped themselves. And I don't mean vegetarian or whatever. Replacing junk in the diet with real food should come first.

 

[rousseau]

How many years would doing this squeeze out and would they be worth living?

Many meat eaters have lived into their 90's.

I tell my wife, "I'm not spending 1 miserable hour of my life at the gym, just to live 15 slightly less miserable minutes longer"

I think this is the mindset most people have, but it's totally backward to me.

I couldn't care less how long I live, but I still maintain a healthy life style because it makes me feel good in the present moment. When I run for 45 minutes on a Sunday afternoon I end up feeling energized and positive for the next few days. It relieves stress and leaves me feeling more energetic and content.

The same goes with food. I maintain just about a perfect diet with lots of produce and protein, not because I want to live a long time, but because it makes me feel better than if I were eating processed sugar and other garbage.

Granted most are in the habit of an unhealthy lifestyle and it takes work to build good habits, but once you get there life is way, way better.

 

[Malintent]

I tell my wife, "I'm not spending 1 miserable hour of my life at the gym, just to live 15 slightly less miserable minutes longer"

I think this is the mindset most people have, but it's totally backward to me.

I couldn't care less how long I live, but I still maintain a healthy life style because it makes me feel good in the present moment. When I run for 45 minutes on a Sunday afternoon I end up feeling energized and positive for the next few days. It relieves stress and leaves me feeling more energetic and content.

The same goes with food. I maintain just about a perfect diet with lots of produce and protein, not because I want to live a long time, but because it makes me feel better than if I were eating processed sugar and other garbage.

Granted most are in the habit of an unhealthy lifestyle and it takes work to build good habits, but once you get there life is way, way better.

I feel the same way about my diet as you... I can compare how I felt on my college kid diet, versus my married to a health-nut diet of my mid-life.

However, exercise does not give me any positive experience at all.

 

[Playball40]

Based on all the scientific data it IS certain beyond question that everybody WILL benefit from a plant based diet, and that's one of his main talking points.

This is absolutely, positively incorrect. I know many instances where a 'plant based' only diet is not only unhealthy, but could kill.

 

[Malintent]

note that a "plant based" diet is not only not necessarily Vegan, but is not even necessarily Vegetarian.
I point this out because you guys appear to be talking past each other on that point.
It IS generally healthier to reduce the intake of red meat, if you eat what the average American eats.
The average American is on a "meat based" diet. They might have a salad once in a while and a side of butter drenched vegetables that have had most of their benefits cooked out of them. That is not an ideal diet.

The ideal diet (for most people) is indeed "plant based".. that is, focused on vegetables, starches, and oils... but should also include a portion of animal-based protein. Lots of vegetables, some fruit - not too much, lots of grains, and some meat - but not too much.

Personally, I eat meat about 4 or 5 times a week.. but in relatively small amounts.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

note that a "plant based" diet is not only not necessarily Vegan, but is not even necessarily Vegetarian.
I point this out because you guys appear to be talking past each other on that point.
It IS generally healthier to reduce the intake of red meat, if you eat what the average American eats.
The average American is on a "meat based" diet. They might have a salad once in a while and a side of butter drenched vegetables that have had most of their benefits cooked out of them. That is not an ideal diet.

The ideal diet (for most people) is indeed "plant based".. that is, focused on vegetables, starches, and oils... but should also include a portion of animal-based protein. Lots of vegetables, some fruit - not too much, lots of grains, and some meat - but not too much.

Personally, I eat meat about 4 or 5 times a week.. but in relatively small amounts.

Greger says to get rid of the flesh and advocates vegan eating. But he's not a nut in this regard. His message is to move away from the typical western diet, and to primarily jettison the junk food. He also goes to lengths to explain that things like the poultry we eat today is not the same as the poultry we ate three or four generations ago. When I was a kid most people around me raised their own chickens. The meat wasn't impregnated with a phosphate/brine/salt broth. There were no antibiotics. The chickens roamed and ate bugs and grass and would rip hell out of your garden if they got the chance. Today's poultry isn't close to the same thing, and the same goes for meat, pork, and even fish.

To get my B12 I'm presently using a bit of nutritional yeast, which as a side effect jumps the protein intake. So far all is well and after a month I've noticed that I don't react to cruciferous vegetables like I did before. They were a class of veggies I could not eat because of MCAS.

This is absolutely, positively incorrect. I know many instances where a 'plant based' only diet is not only unhealthy, but could kill.

If you mean like peanut allergies then certainly. People have all types of sensitivities and allergies, yours truly included.

Today's fare:

Flax
Oats
Hemp seed
Chia seed
Pepitas
Cashews
Walnuts
raisins
Broccoli
Black Beans
Capers
Apple
Pear
Kiwi
Purple cabbage
Tart Cherry juice
WW pasta

Also did my standard exercises, which Greger talks about, always citing his advice with scientific data.

 

[skepticalbip]

note that a "plant based" diet is not only not necessarily Vegan, but is not even necessarily Vegetarian.
I point this out because you guys appear to be talking past each other on that point.
It IS generally healthier to reduce the intake of red meat, if you eat what the average American eats.
The average American is on a "meat based" diet. They might have a salad once in a while and a side of butter drenched vegetables that have had most of their benefits cooked out of them. That is not an ideal diet.

The ideal diet (for most people) is indeed "plant based".. that is, focused on vegetables, starches, and oils... but should also include a portion of animal-based protein. Lots of vegetables, some fruit - not too much, lots of grains, and some meat - but not too much.

Personally, I eat meat about 4 or 5 times a week.. but in relatively small amounts.

You are describing the traditional southern diet. A traditional southern dinner will be at least three different vegetables, a little meat, and cornbread or biscuit.