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How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

I'm certain that the Ruskis know in no uncertain terms that if they use low yield nukes on Ukrainians then low yield nukes can then be used against Russian military. Does anyone here honestly think otherwise? Does anyone think they have not been told this? Really? Has someone been watching too many movies?

Pewtin isn't going to nuke anyone because it's like nuking himself. If he was going to use nukes he'd have already used nukes and we would likely already have responded in kind.

Hitler could have used chemical and biological weapons but shot himself in the head instead, literally.
 
I was looking over the old board archive and there was a thread about Russia annexing Crimea. In the thread, JayJay said this:
]Is it because people are worried about the slippery slope? Letting Russia annex Crimera will make them more aggressive in the future, that they'll feel more emboldened to take over additional territory? That's waht I think anyway. In particular, certain key parts near the Crimean border and the Russian-majority territories in eastern Ukraine.
Looks like JayJay was exactly right.
Good call on Jayjay's part. What was prognosticated about how the west would respond to an invasion of Ukraine? What was going to be our strategy if that happened? And the Ruski military was perceived at the time as being a juggernaut, extremely competent and capable. That has changed, it was a myth. So what now?
 
I wonder how much Trump's public attitude on NATO and the western alliance factored into Putin's decisions.
 
Apparently if someone protests the war, they are rounded up and drafted to participate in it. (surely a great strategy to build an effective military force)

A couple guys who support the war, and came to counter the protesters got rounded up. They should be happy to know they will be able to support the war directly from the front lines.

 
I wonder how much Trump's public attitude on NATO and the western alliance factored into Putin's decisions.
Pewtin would have most certainly felt emboldened via the whole Orange Jesus fiasco. That hardly matters at this point. Before Pewtin invaded no one was really sure how anyone was going to react. We certainly know that appeasing dictators does not work for long term peace and stability and it seems that is the path we have taken, to fight back.

So now the bully is threatening to use nukes because we've just kicked his ass in a fair fight.
 
I'm certain that the Ruskis know in no uncertain terms that if they use low yield nukes on Ukrainians then low yield nukes can then be used against Russian military. Does anyone here honestly think otherwise? Does anyone think they have not been told this? Really? Has someone been watching too many movies?

Pewtin isn't going to nuke anyone because it's like nuking himself. If he was going to use nukes he'd have already used nukes and we would likely already have responded in kind.

Hitler could have used chemical and biological weapons but shot himself in the head instead, literally.
There's also the small matter of what Putin might use these nukes for.

They're tactical weapons, so they need to be used as a tactic; But to what end?

The design brief for tactical nukes was to defend against overwhelming armoured strength. They're (literally) overkill against lightly armoured forces, or small concentrations of enemy materiel; And they're fairly useless as offensive weapons, because if you use them, you deny the battlefield (at least for several days) to anyone not protected against radiation - not a problem if you plan to hold or fall back, but a big problem if your plan is to advance.

If Putin authorised their use by senior forward commanders, it's quite likely that those commanders would not use them, not only because of the shitstorm it would bring down from the rest of the world, but simply for lack of a suitable and appropriate target.

Using them strategically - to wipe out urban centres, for example - would be an invitation to a massive punitive/retaliatory strike by NATO forces. Anyone who nukes a city is asking for obliteration, and I am sure that various diplomatic channels, from the US Dept. of State through to Indian PM Modi, have made this crystal clear to Putin.
 
Reports on CNN of Russians backed up at the borders getting out.

I remember watching the Berlin Wall being torn down by people on TV. Maybe this is the final act of the play.


 
Reports on CNN of Russians backed up at the borders getting out.

I remember watching the Berlin Wall being torn down by people on TV. Maybe this is the final act of the play.
Hardly. There were lines back in February and early march also. Didn't lead to anything.

Remember the anti-Putin protests from ten years ago? They were much bigger than what we've seen during this year, and still had zero effect.
 
Norway's PM made a very good speech at the UN. He emphasized there is no military threat to Russia.

 
I was looking over the old board archive and there was a thread about Russia annexing Crimea. In the thread, JayJay said this:
]Is it because people are worried about the slippery slope? Letting Russia annex Crimera will make them more aggressive in the future, that they'll feel more emboldened to take over additional territory? That's waht I think anyway. In particular, certain key parts near the Crimean border and the Russian-majority territories in eastern Ukraine.
Looks like JayJay was exactly right.
I went back and checked the archive, and your quote was messed up. In reality half of it was from @Axulus and the last two sentences were my reply. Here it is formatted correctly:

Jayjay said:
Axulus said:
Is it because people are worried about the slippery slope? Letting Russia annex Crimera will make them more aggressive in the future, that they'll feel more emboldened to take over additional territory?
That's waht I think anyway. In particular, certain key parts near the Crimean border and the Russian-majority territories in eastern Ukraine.
This was written in March 18, 2014, after Crimean annexation but I think before the separatist offenses in Luhansk and Donetsk. Also at the time I had no clue about geography of Ukraine.
 

A good history of previous Kremlin Coups. But I wonder if a 1991 scenario is more likely. What if these demonstrations get further and further out of hand. What if the security forces find themselves overrun - even for just one case in an important city. It could snowball quickly. Putin has to be very aggressive in cracking these down but can he do it if they turn really large? If they get out of hand, all bets are off. At some point the security forces stop doing their job. They may not be enthusiastic supporters of this war either. They may have to go to Ukraine as well. At some point Putin is told he has to go. Maybe he’s given a dacha and immunity to soften the blow. Personally I hope he’s arrested or even worse.
That's the thing though... With this mobilization he could potentially end up depleting domestic security forces, and even they would likely look at this mobilization with worry.
I think Putin has read about the previous Russian revolutions, and is making sure that he doesn't send the domestic security forces to Ukraine. This ensures that A) any demonstrations or opposition will be efficiently nipped in the bud, and B) the police will stay loyal because they know that they're safe as long as the follow orders.

Despite analyses that say Russia doesn't have enough equipment or can't train 300k (or later up to a million) soldiers is being too optimistic in my opinion. How hard is it for a country the size of Russia to produce helmets and body armor, given that they've probably ramped up production months ago and are continuing to do so? Not every piece of equipment needs western parts.

This mobilization is going to be bad for Ukraine, that was already struggling. It won't show immediately, but the difficulty is going to ramp up in the weeks and months ahead. The Kharkiv frontline seems to have mostly stabilized by now, with Ukraine making only marginal gains, but Russian forces seem to be very close to getting Bakhmut. Kherson is question mark. Ukraine currently has not been able to do much more than pin Russians in place by disrupting their logistics, and even if Ukraine somehow manages to push Russia to the other side of the river, then what? Russia will just bomb the city to the ground. And maybe blow up the Nova Kakhovka dam.
 

A good history of previous Kremlin Coups. But I wonder if a 1991 scenario is more likely. What if these demonstrations get further and further out of hand. What if the security forces find themselves overrun - even for just one case in an important city. It could snowball quickly. Putin has to be very aggressive in cracking these down but can he do it if they turn really large? If they get out of hand, all bets are off. At some point the security forces stop doing their job. They may not be enthusiastic supporters of this war either. They may have to go to Ukraine as well. At some point Putin is told he has to go. Maybe he’s given a dacha and immunity to soften the blow. Personally I hope he’s arrested or even worse.
That's the thing though... With this mobilization he could potentially end up depleting domestic security forces, and even they would likely look at this mobilization with worry.
I think Putin has read about the previous Russian revolutions, and is making sure that he doesn't send the domestic security forces to Ukraine. This ensures that A) any demonstrations or opposition will be efficiently nipped in the bud, and B) the police will stay loyal because they know that they're safe as long as the follow orders.

Despite analyses that say Russia doesn't have enough equipment or can't train 300k (or later up to a million) soldiers is being too optimistic in my opinion. How hard is it for a country the size of Russia to produce helmets and body armor, given that they've probably ramped up production months ago and are continuing to do so? Not every piece of equipment needs western parts.

This mobilization is going to be bad for Ukraine, that was already struggling. It won't show immediately, but the difficulty is going to ramp up in the weeks and months ahead. The Kharkiv frontline seems to have mostly stabilized by now, with Ukraine making only marginal gains, but Russian forces seem to be very close to getting Bakhmut. Kherson is question mark. Ukraine currently has not been able to do much more than pin Russians in place by disrupting their logistics, and even if Ukraine somehow manages to push Russia to the other side of the river, then what? Russia will just bomb the city to the ground. And maybe blow up the Nova Kakhovka dam.
My biggest worry is what he's planning to do with the protestors.

Where will he send them to fight?

What city will he bomb to the ground?

I expect this is three birds with one stone. He plans to nuke his own people while using them as bait to a counteroffensive, tactically targeting the assembled material, while both warning protests off, and generating "martyrs". He just has to lie to Russia about who set off the nuke.

The world would balk at nuclear response to a city containing only (or even just mostly) "soldiers".

Ukraine better not be planning on putting all it's eggs in a basket, and not expect the presence of Russians to be a deterrent to the use of nuclear arms.

He just conscripted a bunch of soldiers he WANTS to die.
 

A good history of previous Kremlin Coups. But I wonder if a 1991 scenario is more likely. What if these demonstrations get further and further out of hand. What if the security forces find themselves overrun - even for just one case in an important city. It could snowball quickly. Putin has to be very aggressive in cracking these down but can he do it if they turn really large? If they get out of hand, all bets are off. At some point the security forces stop doing their job. They may not be enthusiastic supporters of this war either. They may have to go to Ukraine as well. At some point Putin is told he has to go. Maybe he’s given a dacha and immunity to soften the blow. Personally I hope he’s arrested or even worse.
That's the thing though... With this mobilization he could potentially end up depleting domestic security forces, and even they would likely look at this mobilization with worry.
I think Putin has read about the previous Russian revolutions, and is making sure that he doesn't send the domestic security forces to Ukraine. This ensures that A) any demonstrations or opposition will be efficiently nipped in the bud, and B) the police will stay loyal because they know that they're safe as long as the follow orders.

Despite analyses that say Russia doesn't have enough equipment or can't train 300k (or later up to a million) soldiers is being too optimistic in my opinion. How hard is it for a country the size of Russia to produce helmets and body armor, given that they've probably ramped up production months ago and are continuing to do so? Not every piece of equipment needs western parts.

This mobilization is going to be bad for Ukraine, that was already struggling. It won't show immediately, but the difficulty is going to ramp up in the weeks and months ahead. The Kharkiv frontline seems to have mostly stabilized by now, with Ukraine making only marginal gains, but Russian forces seem to be very close to getting Bakhmut. Kherson is question mark. Ukraine currently has not been able to do much more than pin Russians in place by disrupting their logistics, and even if Ukraine somehow manages to push Russia to the other side of the river, then what? Russia will just bomb the city to the ground. And maybe blow up the Nova Kakhovka dam.
My biggest worry is what he's planning to do with the protestors.

Where will he send them to fight?

What city will he bomb to the ground?
If enough people ever protested to make bombing entire (Russian) cities to the ground, then Putin would've already lost. But as it stands, there haven't been that many. About 500 arrested in St. Petersburg, and another 500 in Moscow. Smaller numbers elsewhere. So let's say 1500 arrests. It's peanuts in a country of 140 million people.

As for where to send the people... just a wild guess, but maybe Ukraine? :D If you're implying that people inclined to protest aren't likely to be reliable soldiers, that's irrelevant. It's about the fear of being sent to the front that's the key. If you haven't been drafted, then you'll likely keep your head down and not protest so the situation stays that way. That limits the protestors to those who aren't eligible to be drafted (women mostly), and those who've been summoned but haven't been able to escape or been taken yet. And frankly, if I was in that group, I'd spend my effort on the escape plan.

I expect this is three birds with one stone. He plans to nuke his own people while using them as bait to a counteroffensive, tactically targeting the assembled material, while both warning protests off, and generating "martyrs". He just has to lie to Russia about who set off the nuke.

The world would balk at nuclear response to a city containing only (or even just mostly) "soldiers".

Ukraine better not be planning on putting all it's eggs in a basket, and not expect the presence of Russians to be a deterrent to the use of nuclear arms.

He just conscripted a bunch of soldiers he WANTS to die.
Wait what? So you think he will draft soldiers, then put them in a city with protests, nuke the city, blame the west, and ... profit somehow? What the hell have you been smoking? :oops:
 
A perspective I heard on the BBC. Seemed obvious after I heard it.

Putin is not talking to the west or Ukraine, when he is blustering about full scale war, NATO, and nuclear weapoms he is talking to the aggressive hard line Russians who support him, and the pro Russian Russians in occupied zones.
l
I'd think if there was coup it could come from them. I'd say if Putin had anything to fear internally it would be the hard liners.
 

A good history of previous Kremlin Coups. But I wonder if a 1991 scenario is more likely. What if these demonstrations get further and further out of hand. What if the security forces find themselves overrun - even for just one case in an important city. It could snowball quickly. Putin has to be very aggressive in cracking these down but can he do it if they turn really large? If they get out of hand, all bets are off. At some point the security forces stop doing their job. They may not be enthusiastic supporters of this war either. They may have to go to Ukraine as well. At some point Putin is told he has to go. Maybe he’s given a dacha and immunity to soften the blow. Personally I hope he’s arrested or even worse.
That's the thing though... With this mobilization he could potentially end up depleting domestic security forces, and even they would likely look at this mobilization with worry.
I think Putin has read about the previous Russian revolutions, and is making sure that he doesn't send the domestic security forces to Ukraine. This ensures that A) any demonstrations or opposition will be efficiently nipped in the bud, and B) the police will stay loyal because they know that they're safe as long as the follow orders.

Despite analyses that say Russia doesn't have enough equipment or can't train 300k (or later up to a million) soldiers is being too optimistic in my opinion. How hard is it for a country the size of Russia to produce helmets and body armor, given that they've probably ramped up production months ago and are continuing to do so? Not every piece of equipment needs western parts.

This mobilization is going to be bad for Ukraine, that was already struggling. It won't show immediately, but the difficulty is going to ramp up in the weeks and months ahead. The Kharkiv frontline seems to have mostly stabilized by now, with Ukraine making only marginal gains, but Russian forces seem to be very close to getting Bakhmut. Kherson is question mark. Ukraine currently has not been able to do much more than pin Russians in place by disrupting their logistics, and even if Ukraine somehow manages to push Russia to the other side of the river, then what? Russia will just bomb the city to the ground. And maybe blow up the Nova Kakhovka dam.
My biggest worry is what he's planning to do with the protestors.

Where will he send them to fight?

What city will he bomb to the ground?
If enough people ever protested to make bombing entire (Russian) cities to the ground, then Putin would've already lost. But as it stands, there haven't been that many. About 500 arrested in St. Petersburg, and another 500 in Moscow. Smaller numbers elsewhere. So let's say 1500 arrests. It's peanuts in a country of 140 million people.

As for where to send the people... just a wild guess, but maybe Ukraine? :D If you're implying that people inclined to protest aren't likely to be reliable soldiers, that's irrelevant. It's about the fear of being sent to the front that's the key. If you haven't been drafted, then you'll likely keep your head down and not protest so the situation stays that way. That limits the protestors to those who aren't eligible to be drafted (women mostly), and those who've been summoned but haven't been able to escape or been taken yet. And frankly, if I was in that group, I'd spend my effort on the escape plan.

I expect this is three birds with one stone. He plans to nuke his own people while using them as bait to a counteroffensive, tactically targeting the assembled material, while both warning protests off, and generating "martyrs". He just has to lie to Russia about who set off the nuke.

The world would balk at nuclear response to a city containing only (or even just mostly) "soldiers".

Ukraine better not be planning on putting all it's eggs in a basket, and not expect the presence of Russians to be a deterrent to the use of nuclear arms.

He just conscripted a bunch of soldiers he WANTS to die.
Wait what? So you think he will draft soldiers, then put them in a city with protests, nuke the city, blame the west, and ... profit somehow? What the hell have you been smoking? :oops:
No, I think he will draft soldiers, put them in an occupied Ukranian city with no logistic support, let the city get overrun by Ukranian forces attempting to retake it, and then nuke them all.

This causes everyone who protested his war to fall out of the same window, while simultaneously being able to call them martyrs, and nuking a Ukranian city along with a large portion of Ukranian forces.
 
My biggest worry is what he's planning to do with the protestors.

Where will he send them to fight?
Let the fragging begin.
My point is that he will send them to fight somewhere where they can be disposed of strategically and visibly.

To the rest of the peaceniks it says "you're next if you keep protesting the war" and to everyone else, those under his propaganda umbrella, they are instead martyrs.

The only requirement is that a weapon is used such that it erases or prevents the realities of what was done from actually ever being well understood.
 
My biggest worry is what he's planning to do with the protestors.

Where will he send them to fight?
Let the fragging begin.

There are incidents of recruitment and administrative centers being attacked with molotov cocktails

I noticed that some protesters are deliberately misspelling the word for mobilization--"mobilizatsiya" мобилизация-- as "mogilizatsiya" могилизация. The Russian word "mogila" могила is "grave" in English.
 
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