How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[barbos]

Croatia is OUT!
Their president blasted Biden for the crap he is doing in Ukraine and said Croatia wants no part in this escalation.

Is not democracy and pluralism great?

 

[Copernicus]

Croatia is OUT!
Their president blasted Biden for the crap he is doing in Ukraine and said Croatia wants no part in this escalation.

Is not democracy and pluralism great?

The Croatian president, Zoran Milanović, has a record of aligning with Moscow's narrative on Ukraine and its sense of persecution and entitlement. I don't know enough about Croatian politics to know how popular he is within Croatia, but Croatia still remains a member of the EU and NATO. All he has said is that he will withdraw Croatian troops from any potential conflict in eastern Europe and that the West should take action to appease Putin. Not a lot is being said about him in the media, but I expect the story to ramp up as Russia incorporates it into its ongoing version of reality in Russia's propaganda story.

See: Croatian President Says Ukraine Should Not be Part of NATO

 

[Copernicus]

To put barbos's claims here in perspective, it is useful to look at the narrative that Russians are exposed to daily. It is interesting that Tucker Carlson has become something of a celebrity in Russia, and anti-Biden rhetoric in the US generally has been picked up and amplified. Russians no longer have access to a wide range of commentary on current events, although it is still possible to find some external perspective in online sources. Not everything can be easily censored on the Internet, but most Russians will get their news from TV and popular Russian news sites, which will promote the official narrative. And the Russian narrative is presenting a picture of NATO troop movements as largely unprovoked and aggressive, while their own posture in ringing Ukraine with troops is defensive. This CNN report paints a picture of the "mirror image" of current events that Russians are seeing:

The West fears Russia is about to attack Ukraine. But that's not the way Russians are seeing it on TV

 

[Gospel]

Propaganda is still being used?

If the average American is anything like me (and they are) I don't know what information sources to trust & the snowball have grown so large it has taken on a personality of its own to one-day explode in our faces like snot bubbles.

 

[Elixir]

Do you honestly believe that the reason why e. European countries hate Mother Russia is only due to the CIA paying them secretly to hate Russia!? Honestly? It has nothing to do with Russia's actions?

Do you honestly think that if Barbos knew the truth, he’d be allowed to tell it?

 

[TV and credit cards]

Russia Commences Training Exercise.

The Meet You in the Middle Live Fire Exercise has begun.

The Russian military earlier said it had launched exercises involving some 6,000 troops and at least 60 fighter jets in the Rostov and Krasnodar regions near Ukraine and in Moscow-occupied Crimea.

This after

Dmitry Peskov said that "the United States is escalating tensions," and warning that the Kremlin was watching "these U.S. actions with great concern."

Escalating tension by readying 8,500 troops for potential deployment to reinforce NATO. That's 8,500 with two zeros and Russia is quite literally up in arms about it.

Also, Biden is trying to get Olaf to back away from his Energy for Respect agreement with Russia by trying to get gas companies to redirect shipments to the EU and increase LNG production here at home.
And Germany continues replacing it's nuclear power with windmills and positive thinking.

 

[barbos]

TV and credit cards

Croatia agrees with Peskov

 

[laughing dog]

If barbos' contributions to this thread accurately reflect Russian (i.e. Putin's) feelings, then there is no chance of a peaceful resolution without leaving the Ukrainian people royally screwed.

 

[laughing dog]

If barbos' contributions to this thread accurately reflect Russian (i.e. Putin's) feelings, then there is no chance of a peaceful resolution without leaving the Ukrainian people royally screwed.

Actually there is and it was mentioned in the video I posted.

You need to actually point out it or describe it.

 

[Jarhyn]

If barbos' contributions to this thread accurately reflect Russian (i.e. Putin's) feelings, then there is no chance of a peaceful resolution without leaving the Ukrainian people royally screwed.

Actually there is and it was mentioned in the video I posted.

You need to actually point out it or describe it.

If the goal were to get people to consume propaganda, I expect that pointing out specifics would be against the agenda.

 

[ZiprHead]

 

[Copernicus]

This is why Tucker Carlson has become a media star with some talking heads on Russian TV. He isn't just a useful idiot. He is also a very effective one for their propaganda machine.

Soviet propaganda used to be so crude that it was laughable, but times have changed with social media and the internet playing such a large role in shaping opinions. The packaging of political narratives has become much more subtle and effective. For example, we all see that both the US and the UK have moved non-essential embassy personnel out of Kyiv as a precaution against a possible invasion, especially since Russian troops in Belarus are now within quick striking distance of Kyiv. I have seen reports in Russian news sources loudly proclaiming that the US and UK have "evacuated" (with quotes) their embassies. No mention of the fact that the vast majority of personnel have remained in place. So what many, if not most, Russians are hearing is a half-truth. There is just enough accuracy there to spin a false picture of what is actually taking place. Kyiv has complained that the embassy moves were "premature", given that Russian troops would still need a week or two to prepare an immediate attack, but the perception is the reality in the minds of so many Russian observers.

Unfortunately, the same is true for observers of Fox News talking heads like Tucker Carlson. He is an effective propagandist for his audience.

 

[Jayjay]

It's unfortunate, but understandable from people who are at war with Russia. The anti-Russian sentiment is not the root cause, it's a reaction to the current situation.

Nope! Try again. That shit started pretty much after they got independence and never stopped.
In fact that process started in all former USSR republics. They thought it was a great idea to build their national identity on trashing Russia equating it with Soviet Union.

Baltic States had pretty comical incidents while doing so.

The fact that you brought Baltic countries as another examples shows that it's not really about Ukrainian nationalists behaving badly. It's about Russian occupation that all former USSR nations had to contend with, which rightfully pissed everyone off. The reason why it's probably worse in Ukraine is paradoxically because of the commonalities between the nations: the nationalist in Ukraine have to be more extreme, because they have less of their own history and culture to fall back on.

Mmm, I have never said it was about Ukrainian nationalists specifically.
It was about US running around Russia and throwing money at people to harrass Russia. So nationalist and nazi are perfect target for such financing. And yes, Baltic States have them.

Speaking of which, I remember Nuland doing negotiations with Right Sector (ukrainian nazi). She suggested them giving up weapons in exchange for US money for actually becoming a mainstream party. They ..... refused. But think about that.


You still don't believe me? How about right hand of Saakashvili saying the same thing I just told you? The fucking right hand of Saakashvili telling that US foreign policy in the region is basically giving money to anybody as long as they promise to hate Russia.

So suddenly Saakashvili's cronies are reliable sources?

You've really bought the whole "blame the west" Russian propaganda hook, line and sinker. Yes, the US pours money to various countries around the globe, maybe a bit more in Europe as a vestigial anti-communist propaganda machinery like RFE. So what? So does Russia with its support of right wing extremists in France and Greece for example. And the example of Right Sector just shows that the money goes to building up institutions and moderating extremists, not paying them off "as long they promise to hate Russia". The vast majority of the money goes to education and anti-corruption measures, not some imaginary anti-Russian plot.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Since Dementia Joe seems to be stumbling towards war with Russia, I hope at least one of those in agreement with him can answer this one question.

What is the vital US interest in Ukraine?

 

[Jayjay]

Yes, you "explained" that Crimea was obtained illegally because the Russian president at the time was very, very drunk, and you want a do-over. An ironclad legal loophole if there ever was one

It's more complicated than that. But basically yes. There was a lot of chaos right after dissolution of the USSR. In all republics including Ukraine. Drunk Eltsin was preoccupied with Tatarstan ignoring everything else, including Chehcnya where gangs of "freedom" fighters were literally murdering russian population who could not leave.

So what? There was a lot of chaos after WW2 when Russia annexed various plots of land to itself. Russia should immediately return Konigsberg to Poland and Karelia and Pechengsky to Finland on the same basis. In fact, there is a lot of chaos presently so every international treaty could be declared null and void if that would be any kind of pretext.

No need for do-over. Crimea had a right to leave Ukraine and then it was illegally stripped of that right. Not to mention that Sevastopol was not even part of Ukraine.
It's hard to believe but that's what happened. And the reason why it happened is because nobody in Ukraine/Russia/Belarus took USSR dissolution seriously, everyone thought, well, we will have this another union of independent states and we are all friends, we are all slavs, there is nothing to fight about. Basically as far as Belarus/Ukraine/Russia and even central Asia republics were concerned, dissolution did not happen at that time, it was just replaced with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Independent_States .
So Russia started to pay rent for the base which was not ukrainian and was not on Ukrainian land. I mean if you look at the map you would say yeah, it's natural for it to be ukrainian but it was not. That's crazy but that's what happened.

After NATO decided that they would like to have that base, Russia said - nope, you are not having it, hence Crimean referendum which was legal and results should be respected. Crimeans did actually vote to leave Ukraine and go back to Russia.

Ukraine was never going to join NATO, and it only became a remote possibility after Russia had already annexed Crimea and invaded eastern Ukraine. Typical Russian propaganda tools: blame US and NATO conspiracies for your own assholery. Ukraine can only be blamed for being too naive to think Russia would honor the treaties it had signed.

 

[barbos]

So suddenly Saakashvili's cronies are reliable sources?

Yes, they are. And she is not the only one, It's been MO of US all over the world.
Even in old EU they were buying people

.You've really bought the whole "blame the west" Russian propaganda hook, line and sinker. Yes, the US pours money to various countries around the globe, maybe a bit more in Europe as a vestigial anti-communist propaganda machinery like RFE. So what? So does Russia with its support of right wing extremists in France and Greece for example.

Russia does the same. But they are obviously less successful and their goal is not so much to succeed but to send a passive-aggressive message: "We are doing what you're doing, how do you like that?"

And the example of Right Sector just shows that the money goes to building up institutions and moderating extremists, not paying them off "as long they promise to hate Russia".

Such a bullcrap.

The vast majority of the money goes to education and anti-corruption measures, not some imaginary anti-Russian

So as long as majority goes into education it's fine?
And how is that working for you in Ukraine?

Or let say in Afghanistan?

 

[barbos]

So what? There was a lot of chaos after WW2 when Russia annexed various plots of land to itself.

Sorry to disappoint you, but that's how wars work. You win - you get some land.
So for that reason Japanese moaning over these islands is unwarranted.
US gave it to Russia as pay for entering a War which Japan lost.
Same with Europe. Russia got stuff it lost during WW1 back and some more .... from you You probably made a right move to switch sides in the end of WW2, otherwise you would have been in the same position as Baltic States
All agreed with GB/USA. There was no chaos, it was all discussed and agreed upon in Yalta which is ironically in Crimea
You want to get what you lost? Make Russia lose WW3.

Ukraine was never going to join NATO

Bucharest memorandum disagrees.

blame US and NATO conspiracies for your own assholery.

No need to invent conspiracies. It's all in the open.

[removed video repeat]

 

[Copernicus]

Since Dementia Joe seems to be stumbling towards war with Russia, I hope at least one of those in agreement with him can answer this one question.

What is the vital US interest in Ukraine?

As a supporter of Dementia Donny, you probably see the resurrection of the Cold War and old Soviet empire in a much kinder light than most Americans. However, I do think that right wing ideologues have also found common cause with some of the left wing ideologues, who also have a more sympathetic view of Russian talking points.

Ukraine is not "vital" to US interests, and that is why we won't be sending any troops in to defend it in case of Russian invasion. It is important to us, because we pledged to support its security back in 1994 in exchange for the denuclearization of that country. Ever since then, we have been working with Ukraine to help it fight corruption and establish a liberal democracy. They are an important ally, but not vital in the sense that we need to get involved in a war to save them from its aggressive neighbor. We also need to stand up for the right of other nations to live in peaceful coexistence--something that Russia currently does not see as being in its own interests.

 

[Copernicus]

So what? There was a lot of chaos after WW2 when Russia annexed various plots of land to itself.

Sorry to disappoint you, but that's how wars work. You win - you get some land.
So for that reason Japanese moaning over these islands is unwarranted.
US gave it to Russia as pay for entering a War which Japan lost.
Same with Europe. Russia got stuff it lost during WW1 back and some more .... from you. All agreed with GB/USA.
You want to get what you lost? Make Russia lose WW3.

Ukraine was never going to join NATO

Bucharest memorandum disagrees.

blame US and NATO conspiracies for your own assholery.

No need to invent conspiracies. It's all in the open.

The Bucharest Memo says nothing about Ukraine joining NATO. As usual, barbos is confused about what actually happened. Russia wanted a guarantee in the Memo that Ukraine would not join NATO, but that guarantee never made it into the memo.

Regarding Sakhalin Island, the US never "gave" Stalin anything. Stalin decided to enter the war in the Pacific only after Japan was on the brink of defeat, and he only did so to grab what he could from Japan's crumbling empire. The Soviet Union was taking advantage of its status as an ally to grab more territory for itself--exactly what it did in Europe when it occupied East European countries and turned them into satellite states with puppet regimes. The Red Army even had to be coaxed into leaving Austria.

 

[Jayjay]

So suddenly Saakashvili's cronies are reliable sources?

Yes, they are. And she is not the only one, It's been MO of US all over the world.

Please specify who "she" is and what she said exactly? With links to sources.