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How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

Putin and Xi are both making NATO stronger. The only way they can weaken it is to become more democratic in their dealings so it is understandable their predicament. Their little circle jerk is to relieve tension I suppose, kinda like Kruschev beating on the podium with his shoe.

The Orange Turd would have given Ukraine away because Zelensky didn't suck balls. Biden's been around the block so his being in the White House is quite favorable in the present situation.
 
Biden has done it; pushed Russia into allegiance with China. Excellent work.
Nonsense. Russia and China have been working together for quite some time. They have a lot of mutual interests, not the least of which is trying to undermine the western alliance. Republicans haven't been paying much attention since Trump aligned their party with the Kremlin since his election and still needs Putin's patronage. He did a fine job of driving our friends away and trashing our image as a reliable ally. Not to worry, though. They've been love-bombing Tucker Carlson in the Russian media as a journalistic genius these days. You'd feel right at home there. ;)

BTW, did you mean "allegiance" and not "alliance"?
 
We don't have to walk through life with our eyes cast down.
Yeah, yet you vote for the same thing every time. Nothing changes.
In a democracy, things should change slowly. Democracy is hard, to achieve and maintain. There's always another power hungry autocrat conniving in the shadows. Democracy is what all Russians should strive for.
China is not your friend, with an economy a tenth of theirs, not by a long shot. They will use Russia against the US for as long as they need to and then discard you. You know this is true.
Not worrying about the powers that be in your own autocratic government because you personally are too small for the government to care about is no way to live. If these powers decide to turn their attention toward you, what recourse do you have?
Living by someone else's leave is no way to live.
I am not talking about Trump, things were bad before him.
Putin and Xi today issued a joint statement at the Olympics stating that they "oppose further enlargement of NATO and call on the North Atlantic Alliance to abandon its ideologized cold war approaches, to respect the sovereignty, security and interests of other countries, the diversity of their civilizational, cultural and historical backgrounds, and to exercise a fair and objective attitude towards the peaceful development of other States," the statement said.

I'm speechless...

Biden has done it; pushed Russia into allegiance with China. Excellent work.
Did Biden do anything at all to push "Russia into allegiance with China" before Russia amassed 130,000 troops on Ukraine's border? Note this will be the third time Russia has invaded and annexed parts of Ukraine in recent years.
Yes he did, as presidents before him.
 
We don't have to walk through life with our eyes cast down.
Yeah, yet you vote for the same thing every time. Nothing changes.
In a democracy, things should change slowly. Democracy is hard, to achieve and maintain. There's always another power hungry autocrat conniving in the shadows. Democracy is what all Russians should strive for.
China is not your friend, with an economy a tenth of theirs, not by a long shot. They will use Russia against the US for as long as they need to and then discard you. You know this is true.
Not worrying about the powers that be in your own autocratic government because you personally are too small for the government to care about is no way to live. If these powers decide to turn their attention toward you, what recourse do you have?
Living by someone else's leave is no way to live.
I am not talking about Trump, things were bad before him.
Putin and Xi today issued a joint statement at the Olympics stating that they "oppose further enlargement of NATO and call on the North Atlantic Alliance to abandon its ideologized cold war approaches, to respect the sovereignty, security and interests of other countries, the diversity of their civilizational, cultural and historical backgrounds, and to exercise a fair and objective attitude towards the peaceful development of other States," the statement said.

I'm speechless...

Biden has done it; pushed Russia into allegiance with China. Excellent work.
Did Biden do anything at all to push "Russia into allegiance with China" before Russia amassed 130,000 troops on Ukraine's border? Note this will be the third time Russia has invaded and annexed parts of Ukraine in recent years.
Yes he did, as presidents before him.
Yes, it's quite a shock that two despots with absolute power who share a border, want to conquer and bully their weaker neighbors, and are at odds with the west would unite and be friendly! Who would have thought!
 
Yes, it's quite a shock that two despots with absolute power who share a border, want to conquer and bully their weaker neighbors, and are at odds with the west would unite and be friendly! Who would have thought!
You have a knack for missing nuanced point and going for simplistic I can even call it explanation.
 
Yes, it's quite a shock that two despots with absolute power who share a border, want to conquer and bully their weaker neighbors, and are at odds with the west would unite and be friendly! Who would have thought!
You have a knack for missing nuanced point and going for simplistic I can even call it explanation.
The nuanced point has also been missed in Kyiv and Taipei.
 
We don't have to walk through life with our eyes cast down.
Yeah, yet you vote for the same thing every time. Nothing changes.
In a democracy, things should change slowly. Democracy is hard, to achieve and maintain. There's always another power hungry autocrat conniving in the shadows. Democracy is what all Russians should strive for.
China is not your friend, with an economy a tenth of theirs, not by a long shot. They will use Russia against the US for as long as they need to and then discard you. You know this is true.
Not worrying about the powers that be in your own autocratic government because you personally are too small for the government to care about is no way to live. If these powers decide to turn their attention toward you, what recourse do you have?
Living by someone else's leave is no way to live.
I am not talking about Trump, things were bad before him.
Putin and Xi today issued a joint statement at the Olympics stating that they "oppose further enlargement of NATO and call on the North Atlantic Alliance to abandon its ideologized cold war approaches, to respect the sovereignty, security and interests of other countries, the diversity of their civilizational, cultural and historical backgrounds, and to exercise a fair and objective attitude towards the peaceful development of other States," the statement said.

I'm speechless...

Biden has done it; pushed Russia into allegiance with China. Excellent work.
Did Biden do anything at all to push "Russia into allegiance with China" before Russia amassed 130,000 troops on Ukraine's border? Note this will be the third time Russia has invaded and annexed parts of Ukraine in recent years.
Yes he did, as presidents before him.
Really? Can you say what was done?
 
Yes, it's quite a shock that two despots with absolute power who share a border, want to conquer and bully their weaker neighbors, and are at odds with the west would unite and be friendly! Who would have thought!
You have a knack for missing nuanced point and going for simplistic I can even call it explanation.
You call your point nuanced??? :hysterical:
 
Really? Can you say what was done?
Clinton: NATO expansion, illegal wars with Russia's nominal allies.
Bush: South Ossetia invasion and continued NATO expansion
Obama: Ukraine coup and sanctions.
Trump: insistence on sanctioning Nord Stream 2
 
You think your vote means something.
Stalin said it isn't who votes but who counts the votes. That's certainly accurate of what's happening in Russia. I'm not sure how democracy would work in Russia right now given the fact that it's still a society that has never experienced capitalism and freedom. People would be lost, probably expect too much and then be disappointed because there is so much corruption and crime that have been the levers of power for all their lives. And no independent reporting either. Not much chance of a Russian spring that's for sure.

It will take generations but I can see Russia eventually becoming a free democratic nation.
 
You call your point nuanced???
Yes, mine and Mearsheimer. He spoke about Russia-China and I agree.
I'm talking about your statements, not Mearsheiners's.
But don't forget that Mearsheimer wanted Ukraine to keep its nuclear weapons as a deterrent to aggression from Russia. That doesn't fit in with barbos's narrative, so he has nothing to say about the discrepancies between himself and Mearsheimer, who is only of use as a propaganda tool for Putin's policies.
 
You think your vote means something.
Stalin said it isn't who votes but who counts the votes. That's certainly accurate of what's happening in Russia. I'm not sure how democracy would work in Russia right now given the fact that it's still a society that has never experienced capitalism and freedom. People would be lost, probably expect too much and then be disappointed because there is so much corruption and crime that have been the levers of power for all their lives. And no independent reporting either. Not much chance of a Russian spring that's for sure.

It will take generations but I can see Russia eventually becoming a free democratic nation.
Russian spring has a different meaning from what you think. Just so you know.
You keep repeating the same thing over and over not listening to what other side is saying.


You are mistaken if you think that Putin wins elections because he is "counting" votes.
He really does have the votes. And it is your obnoxious treatment of Russia for over 30 years is what contributes to that. Stop fooling yourself that US paid opposition has support of the people. You are not popular in Russia in any sense of the word.
 
You are mistaken if you think that Putin wins elections because he is "counting" votes.
He really does have the votes. And it is your obnoxious treatment of Russia for over 30 years is what contributes to that. Stop fooling yourself that US paid opposition has support of the people. You are not popular in Russia in any sense of the word.

Actually, it is important who counts the votes. According to the following Washington Post report on Putin's 2018 election, those who controlled the vote count were largely dominated by Putin's United Russia Party and its allied Just Russia party. The chart reveals that 71.6% of those in the "Head" position of polling organizations were United Russia party members. Over a third of the Deputy Heads were combined United Russia and Just Russia. The same was true for a third of the secretaries. The lowest levels were only roughly a quarter in the pro-Putin organization. So the real power to swing an election was never in doubt, especially since anyone with a hint of being able to challenge Putin was not allowed to run. The sense that barbos has of what is and is not popular in Russia is informed by the results of such elections and other stories that one finds in the controlled news media. If he were right, then why would the state not allow credible candidates to oppose him in the presidential election, even when his party had strong control over how the vote count was reported?

Source:

Who counted the votes in Russia? We checked.

 
You are mistaken if you think that Putin wins elections because he is "counting" votes.
He really does have the votes.
So did Stalin. It helps when you murder and imprison millions of your citizens and terrorize the rest with threat of death, imprisonment and torture, not to mention controlling what is reported in the media.

You must certainly realize that generations of artificial selection under such an environment will select for persons who tow the party line, persons like yourself who cling to an abusive guardian for survival because it is all they know and have ever known. Russia is a prison and Putin is its warden. And he and his fellow kleptocrats want to keep it that way because it enriches them daily.

Ukraine on the other hand has fought for and tasted freedom and the people like it. They tossed out their little Putin and no longer live in a state prison. Good for them. That genie is out of the bottle and the Putins aren't ever going to put it back. No wonder goons like Putin are afraid.
 
You are mistaken if you think that Putin wins elections because he is "counting" votes.
He really does have the votes.
So did Stalin. It helps when you murder and imprison millions of your citizens and terrorize the rest with threat of death, imprisonment and torture, not to mention controlling what is reported in the media.

You must certainly realize that generations of artificial selection under such an environment will select for persons who tow the party line, persons like yourself who cling to an abusive guardian for survival because it is all they know and have ever known. Russia is a prison and Putin is its warden. And he and his fellow kleptocrats want to keep it that way because it enriches them daily.
So you are comparing Putin to Stalin, seriously?
You are comparing today's russians with all that youtube and free travel anywhere to
Stalin's time? Seriously? Are you Whoopi Goldberg?
Ukraine on the other hand has fought for and tasted freedom and the people like it. They tossed out their little Putin and no longer live in a state prison. Good for them. That genie is out of the bottle and the Putins aren't ever going to put it back.
No, that's not what happened. First of all, Russia along with Ukraine tasted what you call freedom in the 90s. Second, I already told you what happened. Students and young people in general wanted free pass to EU, that's it, that's what these initial "protests" were about. Ukraine have the same freedom now they had before 2014. Nothing changed in freedom department.
 
The Hard-Line Russian Advisers Who Have Putin’s Ear - The New York Times
Three reactionary security officials dedicated to “traditional values” and restoring Soviet glory will figure prominently in the decision whether to invade Ukraine.

The West is legalizing marriage between people and animals. Ukraine’s leaders are as bad as Hitler, and the country’s nationalists are “nonhumans.”

...
In remarks published by the Russian news media in the last year, these powerful men — largely born in the 1950s Soviet Union, as Mr. Putin was — have staked out even more reactionary positions than their president has, a sign of the harder-line turn that the Kremlin is taking as it escalates its fight with perceived enemies at home and abroad.

It is also a story of the Kremlin’s yearslong struggle to craft an ideology to underpin Mr. Putin’s rule: one that increasingly relies on a picture of the West as an enemy, of Ukraine as a threat and of Russia as a bulwark of “traditional values.”

...
Mr. Putin is known for indulging misleading, anti-Western tropes, but his main national security adviser, Nikolai Patrushev, espouses them with even greater ardor. Mr. Putin paints a picture of enemies bent on falsifying Russia’s glorious past, but his foreign intelligence chief, Sergei Naryshkin, has taken on the fight over history as a special priority.

...
Many signs, however, point to the “radicals” gaining sway. ...

As they work to crush dissent, the hard-line security officials are also at the forefront of espousing “traditional values” as Russia’s superior alternative to a morally decaying West. ...

“Father and mother are being renamed parent number one and two,” Mr. Patrushev said in a September interview, describing the West’s “foreign” values. “They want to give children the right to determine their own sex, and in some places they’ve gotten to the point of legalizing marriage with animals.”
Seems very right wing.
 
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