How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[T.G.G. Moogly]

No, that's not what happened. First of all, Russia along with Ukraine tasted what you call freedom in the 90s.

What you tasted was anarchy emanating from the inevitable decay of decades of repression. The reason Putin is not as bad as Stalin is because the west will not allow him to be. The world is smaller. Where the fuck do you think Putin and all his gangster oligarchs keep their stolen wealth?

Western democratic values have been steadily destroying the little Putins of the planet. It doesn't happen overnight but the trajectory is unmistakable.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Seems very right wing.

Russia wants Ukraine. It's that simple. It has never stopped wanting Ukraine since it first controlled Ukraine and starved millions of Ukrainians to death in the 1930s. That bit of history is not forgotten by Ukraine. Putin's nationalist, "We are brothers" rhetoric rings hollow with most Ukrainians.

 

[Elixir]

Dude, all of your conspiracy theories about the West that you keep posting in this thread are Russian projection

You misspelled “propaganda”.

 

[Copernicus]

Seems very right wing.

Russia wants Ukraine. It's that simple. It has never stopped wanting Ukraine since it first controlled Ukraine and starved millions of Ukrainians to death in the 1930s. That bit of history is not forgotten by Ukraine. Putin's nationalist, "We are brothers" rhetoric rings hollow with most Ukrainians.

You are talking about what the Ukrainians refer to as the " Holodomor", which is a term for death by starvation or artificial famine. One estimate is that 3.9 million Ukrainians died in 1932-1933. There is some controversy over whether it was deliberately caused by Stalin to break the will of Ukrainian nationalists and over whether it should be officially classed as genocide.

When the Nazis invaded, many Ukrainians did greet the Wehrmacht as liberators, given their past experiences with Stalin and Soviet rule. That illusion was ultimately dispelled as the Nazis rounded up and imprisoned leaders and members of the fascistic antisemitic  Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) that were seeking to establish Ukraine as an independent nation. The OUN had been collaborating with the Nazis before that, so the Nazis used them for a while. One of their major leaders was the far-right  Stepan Bandera, who still figures prominently as a hero to right wing politicians in modern Ukraine. Bandera was a willing Nazi collaborator who had been briefly arrested but was released for his value as a tool of the Nazis. It is that history of fascist fanaticism and Nazi collaboration that feeds Russian nationalist propaganda tropes even today. Some Ukrainian politicians still treat Bandera as a national hero. For example, he was given the  Hero of Ukraine award in 2010 by Ukrainian president Viktor Yushchenko and then taken away in 2011 by Yanukovych. Bandera's name gets tossed around a lot in Ukrainian politics and is an extremely divisive figure, especially in the more pro-Russian areas of eastern Ukraine. Bandera himself is thought to have been assassinated in Munich by the KGB in 1959.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I know the US was involved in massive famine relief to the Ukraine in 1921 under the direction of Hoover. I thought there was also an episode of famine relief in the early 1930s as well but my memory must be playing tricks on me as I can find no reference. The 1921 famine which killed two million Ukrainians was not caused by weather. Rather it was state orchestrated by the USSR.

 

[Copernicus]

I know the US was involved in massive famine relief to the Ukraine in 1921 under the direction of Hoover. I thought there was also an episode of famine relief in the early 1930s as well but my memory must be playing tricks on me as I can find no reference. The 1921 famine which killed two million Ukrainians was not caused by weather. Rather it was state orchestrated by the USSR.

That earlier famine, the  Russian famine of 1921-1922, was almost certainly caused by the Communist regime, but it wasn't confined to Ukraine. The Communists would seize food from the growers to feed to the poor, who were starving. Lenin at first refused to allow western aid into the country, but he was forced to relent and take measures to ensure that growers had a reason to produce food.

The 1932 Ukrainian famine was also partly caused by the tendency of the Communists to expropriate food from the wealthy class of "kulaks", who Joseph Stalin apparently resented for their growing influence within the Party. The campaign against the kulaks apparently started in 1928 with an article in Pravda. In 1929, Stalin announced "liquidation of the kulaks as a class". So they engaged in forced deportations and collectivization of agriculture, the idea being that no one had the right to profit from the use of private land, which theoretically did not exist. Ultimately, this radical policy is what likely led to the Ukrainian famine of 1932, which could easily be perceived in more simplistic terms as a genocidal policy against Ukrainians as a whole. At least part of it was caused by ideologically driven incompetence by the Communist Party and its leader, Stalin. Stalin, of course, was always settling scores with people he imagined to be his enemies, and that certainly included Ukrainian nationalists.

 

[barbos]

No, that's not what happened. First of all, Russia along with Ukraine tasted what you call freedom in the 90s.

What you tasted was anarchy emanating from the inevitable decay of decades of repression.

So it's anarchy if it destroys your argument and freedom otherwise. Got it.

The reason Putin is not as bad as Stalin is because the west will not allow him to be. The world is smaller. Where the fuck do you think Putin and all his gangster oligarchs keep their stolen wealth?

Western democratic values have been steadily destroying the little Putins of the planet. It doesn't happen overnight but the trajectory is unmistakable.

Putin is no worse than what you had in South Korea. And much much better than what you had in Central and Latin America.

 

[barbos]

Looking for evidence? Trust us, Biden administration says

President Joe Biden's administration has refused to share evidence for national security claims in recent days, and officials have even accused reporters of buying into foreign propaganda.

apnews.com

Price similarly sparred with a reporter at a State Department briefing on Thursday after U.S. officials said Russia was preparing a “false flag” operation as the opening act for an invasion of Ukraine. The alleged scheme included a staged explosion and enlisting actors to portray people mourning the dead.

“Where is the declassified information?” asked Matthew Lee of The Associated Press.

“I just delivered it,” Price said.

“No, you made a series of allegations,” Lee responded.

Price said U.S. officials needed to protect “sources and methods.” After a contentious back and forth, Price said that if reporters want to “find solace in information that the Russians are putting out, that is for you to do.”

He later walked back his comments.

Rep. Jim Himes, a member of the House Intelligence Committee, said the administration hoped to prevent Russia from following through on a false flag plot by publicly airing the allegations.

Looks like "Democracy" lied about planned False Flag operation by the russians.
As I said - projections.

 

[Copernicus]

Looks like "Democracy" lied about planned False Flag operation by the russians.
As I said - projections.

It's too early to put this story behind us, because the invasion hasn't happened yet. If and when it does, the pretext for the invasion will be open to scrutiny. The greater likelihood is that Putin will use his Ukrainian proxies to initiate hostilities and then use the inevitable reaction as an excuse for bringing on the Russian military invasion.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Looking for evidence? Trust us, Biden administration says

President Joe Biden's administration has refused to share evidence for national security claims in recent days, and officials have even accused reporters of buying into foreign propaganda.

apnews.com

Price similarly sparred with a reporter at a State Department briefing on Thursday after U.S. officials said Russia was preparing a “false flag” operation as the opening act for an invasion of Ukraine. The alleged scheme included a staged explosion and enlisting actors to portray people mourning the dead.

“Where is the declassified information?” asked Matthew Lee of The Associated Press.

“I just delivered it,” Price said.

“No, you made a series of allegations,” Lee responded.

Price said U.S. officials needed to protect “sources and methods.” After a contentious back and forth, Price said that if reporters want to “find solace in information that the Russians are putting out, that is for you to do.”

He later walked back his comments.

Rep. Jim Himes, a member of the House Intelligence Committee, said the administration hoped to prevent Russia from following through on a false flag plot by publicly airing the allegations.

Looks like "Democracy" lied about planned False Flag operation by the russians.
As I said - projections.

The west is covering likely excuses Putin might use to start a war. Whether it’s based on intelligence that cannot be revealed to the press or assumptions of likely scenarios is neither here nor there as far as I’m concerned. It’s ‘how to start a war without looking like the bad guy’. Problem is, Putin did it backwards. You’re suppose to leave the occupying force at home and come up with the excuse first, then move in. Not have them poised on the borders ready to attack from three sides and then try to invent an offense that requires a military response. Putin had already made the nonsense claim of having “nowhere to retreat to”. How about the borders of your own nation.
Wow. Why is it the only other nations that will stand with Putin are ones with despotic leaders.

 

[barbos]

The west is covering likely excuses Putin might use to start a war. Whether it’s based on intelligence that cannot be revealed to the press or assumptions of likely scenarios is neither here nor there as far as I’m concerned.

Democracy is lying and you are not concerned.
Democracy lied about Georgia, you were not concerned.
Democracy lied about about Ukrainian coup, you were not concerned.
Democracy lied about WMD in Iraq, you were not concerned.

 

[TV and credit cards]

The west is covering likely excuses Putin might use to start a war. Whether it’s based on intelligence that cannot be revealed to the press or assumptions of likely scenarios is neither here nor there as far as I’m concerned.

Democracy is lying and you are not concerned.
Democracy lied about Georgia, you were not concerned.
Democracy lied about about Ukrainian coup, you were not concerned.
Democracy lied about WMD in Iraq, you were not concerned.

You sound like a pamphlet. Aren’t you suppose to end this with an invite to a meeting somewhere?

So if not democracy, then what?

 

[barbos]

So if not democracy, then what?

Well, duh, Communism-totalitarianism of course

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

The greater likelihood is that Putin will use his Ukrainian proxies to initiate hostilities and then use the inevitable reaction as an excuse for bringing on the Russian military invasion.

It really is about Putin, not about Russia.

So it’s not about Russia. It’s about Putin. And it’s about this small circle of people around him who dominate this country. If you look at them, they are essentially the last gasp of Soviet elites, the people who didn’t just have their early childhood education in the Soviet times, but also their early career experiences. They were made. They thought they knew the way their life was going to be. And then all of a sudden the whole thing collapsed.

“It’s not about Russia. It’s about Putin”: An expert explains Putin’s endgame in Ukraine​

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[barbos]

It is about Putin, but not the way you think.

By the way, from your link:

Crimea was a particular chunk of territory that pretty much every Russian, whether they love or hate Putin, thought was rightfully Russian. It was Russian until the 1950s when it was transferred to Ukrainian control. But that was a one-off. Everyone thought that [annexing Crimea] was right and proper. Frankly, most Crimeans actually genuinely wanted to become part of Russia.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

It is about Putin, but not the way you think.

By the way, from your link:

Crimea was a particular chunk of territory that pretty much every Russian, whether they love or hate Putin, thought was rightfully Russian. It was Russian until the 1950s when it was transferred to Ukrainian control. But that was a one-off. Everyone thought that [annexing Crimea] was right and proper. Frankly, most Crimeans actually genuinely wanted to become part of Russia.

Yes. It was a good article I thought. The crimea annexation did not escape my attention. Could you elaborate on your comment "It is about Putin, but not the way you think."

Thank-you.

 

[Jarhyn]

It is about Putin, but not the way you think.

By the way, from your link:

Crimea was a particular chunk of territory that pretty much every Russian, whether they love or hate Putin, thought was rightfully Russian. It was Russian until the 1950s when it was transferred to Ukrainian control. But that was a one-off. Everyone thought that [annexing Crimea] was right and proper. Frankly, most Crimeans actually genuinely wanted to become part of Russia.

Yes. It was a good article I thought. The crimea annexation did not escape my attention. Could you elaborate on your comment "It is about Putin, but not the way you think."

Thank-you.

Honestly, it doesn't matter if everyone in town thinks of Becky as the town slut, even though she lives outside of town and does not want to fuck them.

Everyone in town thinks Becky is the town slut so that gives them the right to go to her house and rape her, obviously, because she does want to fuck at least some of them.

 

[barbos]

Could you elaborate on your comment "It is about Putin, but not the way you think."

The moment Putin became president US all civilized world said "That's not good" and started analyzing and writing PhD theses about him. It went from bad to worse when it became more-less clear that Putin was not retiring after 2 terms. So it's your obsession with Putin which drives all your decisions, including NATO expansion and coups in Georgia, Ukraine and Belarus. It's self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

[Elixir]

Putin is no worse than…

…a very short list of despicable despots.

 

[ZiprHead]

‘Kharkiv is Ukraine’: Thousands protest against Russian threat

Thousands march through the city chanting ‘Kharkiv is Ukraine’, in show of solidarity with country.

www.aljazeera.com

Thousands have taken to the streets of Ukraine‘s second-largest city carrying banners reading “Kharkiv is Ukraine” and “stop Russian aggression“, as the country braces for a possible military offensive from Russia.

Weeks of diplomacy between the West and Moscow have produced no breakthrough after Russia massed tens of thousands of troops near Ukraine’s borders.

Moscow denies it plans to attack Ukraine but has demanded security guarantees, including a block on Ukraine joining the NATO alliance.

Kharkiv, an eastern industrial city that lies 42km (26 miles) from the Russian border, was identified by Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy as a possible Russian target for “occupation” if the situation escalates, though his spokesman later said he was speaking hypothetically.

On Saturday, demonstrators in Kharkiv marched between the city’s two main squares in sub-zero temperatures. They sang the national anthem and waved Ukrainian flags, or held up flags of allies who have supported Kyiv, including the United States, the United Kingdom and the European Union.

“The people came into the streets to demonstrate that Kharkiv is a Ukrainian city and we will not surrender it,” Kharkiv resident Nina Kvitko told the Reuters news agency.

A Ukrainian flag wrapped around her shoulders, pensioner Iryna Gayeva had a simple message as she demonstrated.

“We do not want Russia,” she told the AFP news agency. “I was born in Crimea. That’s enough, they’ve already taken a homeland from me. I grew up here, I live here, my parents are from Russia but I don’t want to see any occupiers,” she said.

“This is my home, these are my rules.”