How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[barbos]

They planned to start a war in Ukraine and have Russia lose it and maidan Putin out.

So you're saying Putin was stupid enough to fall into the west's trap? If he just kept to his side of the border the west's plan would have been kaput.

It was not a trap. He knew there was no way to avoid it and the only course of action is to make it as painful for you as possible. We don't really care what your media says. Ukraine is existential for Russia, and it is now for you too. Initially it was not, but it is now. You thought you would have easy win, you were mistaken. Now it is you who are trapped in Ukraine.

 

[barbos]

You say you would not be cozy with your neighbor’s enemy but you want Ukraine to be cozy with their neighbors’ enemy.

All along, I have been saying that Ukraine should not have tilted towards NATO and should have kept balance. When did I want Ukraine to be friends with NATO, disregarding Russia' concerns. What hypocrisy are you talking about?

Ukraine did not tilt towards NATO at first. They tilted towards economic cooperation with the west to the advantage of both parties. Russia did not like that and started amassing troops and armaments at the border.

Ukraine was for all intents and purposes occupied by NATO in 2014.

 

[barbos]

Then the invasion of Ukraine. It had nothing to do with any European or Ukrainian military threat to Russia. It is the same old Soviet imperialism that started with Stalin.

That's BS perpetuated by neocon MSM.
On a tactical level, Putin had no choice but to respond to US/NATO provocations. Public opinion was for it and if he had done nothing he would have risked having unrest in Russia. Putin has given Ukrainians multiple chances to avoid this war and settle on remarkably good for Ukraine terms. But the goal of regime in washington was not peace, their goal was to regime change Putin. They planned to start a war in Ukraine and have Russia lose it and maidan Putin out.
Problem is, plan did not work at all. In particular sanctions not only did not work, they did the exact opposite, they helped Russia economically, mainly becasue they stopped money drain to the West.
China and the rest of the global majority did not support sanctions. Russian oligarchs were sanctioned to the point where they could not pay people to tie their shoelaces. By the way, yachts you stole from russian oligarchs require expensive maintenance fee. And you can't sell them becasue nobody wants to buy stolen property.
You idiots basically provided free of charge parking and maintenance for these yachts. Cause you know what's going to happen, you are going to return them to their rightful owners. Same with arrested russian funds. You are going to return every cent of it. Saudi Arabia and other ME monarchies will make sure you do.
Unipolar world is over, learn to live in a new world.

The unwritten agreement was the west provides security in the gulf and the Arabs keep oil flowin and keep prices stable, the global economy.

The Arabs and Egypt were once in the Russian sphere, but no longer. Our msin fsire i fregn policy is in thinking counties like Afghanistan and Iraq will become stable democracies, which they did not. Yes, we invaded Iraq and we did not dominate, we handed them the freedom to choose a free democracy, and it failed.

Italy, Germany, and Japan post war became free independent states post WWII. You can in no way compare the USA and the west to the the Soviets, Russia today, and Putin. The west as a fundamental principle is the right to chose free of coercion. The polar opposite of post revolution Russia to today.

Post WWII Russia created the Iron Curtain. Poland and other counties controlled by military force. Poland remembers.

Putin is a continuation o Stalinism. Brutal, oppressive, and militaristic. An anachronism to the west, and a threat to liberties.

What are you talking about? how is that relevant to what I just said?
I said that EU can not steal russian assets without losing assets from ME monoarchies.

 

[barbos]

There would be no war right now if Ukraine had been in Nato.

I don't think that is true. I do not know if NATO members too will get involved, the way things are going.

In the 75 years since Nato's formation, which Nato countries have been invaded by Russia?

Ukraine.

 

[barbos]

Russia, half the population of the USA, one tenth the GDP. Russia's one big export, oil and gas, crippled by sanctions and boycotts. Monetary reserves almost exhausted. And expensive war Russia really cannot afford for long. Rampant corruption.

And the Russian navy has been driven away. How are they going to protect that bridge? Build a narco-sub, I'm sure Ukraine can do it easily enough. Except instead of drugs it's got a boatload of explosives and a couple of demo guys to place it.

US Navy has been driven away too. By the way, bridge is still standing and ukro-nazi boats attacks subsided, you don't hear about them anymore, do you?

 

[barbos]

That is the issue with Russia and Ukraine. First Crimea and there was no real repose, then border areas of Ukraine, then invasion of Ukraine. Putin wants the former Soviet Baltic states back under Russia,

Ukraine had been fine until you decided to have it.

 

[barbos]

Italy, Germany, and Japan post war became free independent states post WWII. You can in no way compare the USA and the west to the the Soviets, Russia today, and Putin.

Actually I can and I will. Russia today is in the ballpark of Eastern Europe countries.
And keep in mind that Eastern Europe gets significant help from richer part of EU directly and indirectly by being integrated into EU economy. Russia has no help from anybody in any shape or form.
Germany and Japan are not independent, they are still under US occupation.

Western Europe after the WW2 while devastated as much as Russia, received help from US, USSR did not. Secondly USSR was under constant threat of war with US and their satellites which combined had more population and more economy.
Yes, USSR made a number of mistakes but it's mostly result of WW2 devastation.

 

[steve_bank]

Barbos, your are a relic of the old Soviet Cold War propaganda. You should be put on a display in a museum.

I once worked with a Russian engineer over here who was on a work visa. Educated, but he had no idea what our system was and how it worked. He constantly complained about the USA for one thing or another, yet here he was getting a job.

Go figure.

Russian engineers and scientists coming over here to work is not uncommon. Same with China adn Asia in general.

 

[barbos]

Barbos, your are a relic of the old Soviet Cold War propaganda.

No I am not. In fact, I am a dissident of a sort. I was technically expelled from the university for basically telling a History of CPSU (Communist Party of SU) professor that I am not going to waste my time on his shit.
It did not cause me any trouble becasue I was going to mandatory Army service anyway, and after the Army that course was no more. I simply came and asked another professor to give me "passed" grade and I was reinstated without any loss of time.
Even in high school, I literally did not care for any of that shit. I was good at physics/math, did not cause any troubles, hence was not bothered by teachers about anything else, specifically (history, geography, russian literature/language, foreign language). They knew I had zero interest in that and I knew they knew and they knew I knew they knew.
I literally have not read any of that great russian and soviet literature, let alone propaganda.
No War and Peace, no Maxim Gorky, no Dostoevsky. None of that. I was reading normal stuff kids like to read (science fiction, adventure, etc) which was not part of the official reading list. Sorry, I had zero propaganda imprinted on me. All my interest in politics and history appeared way way later after university and it happened naturally.
I sometimes feel bad for not fitting the profile. Everybody says Dostoevsky is great, and here I am, a russian who has not read any of that. I read Bulgakov, that's the extent of my exposure to russian/soviet literature, he is great, but It was not while in school. And Bulgakov is considered a dissident and was not recommended for reading in school.
for what it worth, I like classical ballet. Well, I mean now I can watch it and like it. Is that russian/soviet enough for you?

Americans are horribly misinformed about life elsewhere, specifically places they consider enemies (Russia, USSR, Iran China) Whereas russians and even soviet era russians were better informed about West. Thanks to Hollywood and surprisingly travel. When I came to US, I pretty much knew what to expect, except fat people, I did not expect that.

 

[barbos]

Russian engineers and scientists coming over here to work is not uncommon.

You're telling ME that?

 

[zorq]

Barbos, you are quite insistant on repeating your conspiracy theories, so I'll ask you again to support them with a shred of evidence. Go ahead. Show us the evidence that "NATO occupied Ukraine in 2014."

 

[Patooka]

Barbos, you are quite insistant on repeating your conspiracy theories, so I'll ask you again to support them with a shred of evidence. Go ahead. Show us the evidence that "NATO occupied Ukraine in 2014."

I'm sure barbos' "proof" is something along the lines of blah blah Nuland blah blah. It's not going to be very informative.

 

[barbos]

Barbos, you are quite insistant on repeating your conspiracy theories, so I'll ask you again to support them with a shred of evidence. Go ahead. Show us the evidence that "NATO occupied Ukraine in 2014."

It's not a conspiracy theory. Your own damn Biden bragged how he was running Ukrainian government, firing and hiring people. Same with Nuland in intercepted phone call.

 

[barbos]

Barbos, you are quite insistant on repeating your conspiracy theories, so I'll ask you again to support them with a shred of evidence. Go ahead. Show us the evidence that "NATO occupied Ukraine in 2014."

I'm sure barbos' "proof" is something along the lines of blah blah Nuland blah blah. It's not going to be very informative.

Yep. And it is way better than RussiaGate theory YOU peddle.

 

[barbos]

Russian Iskander strike kills 50 western "instructors"

 

[barbos]

Barbos, you are quite insistant on repeating your conspiracy theories, so I'll ask you again to support them with a shred of evidence. Go ahead. Show us the evidence that "NATO occupied Ukraine in 2014."

It's not a conspiracy theory. Your own damn Biden bragged how he was running Ukrainian government, firing and hiring people. Same with Nuland in intercepted phone call.

And don't forget Nino Burjanadze spilling the beans on US modus operandi.

 

[barbos]

Streets of Moscow (Russian Dictatorship)


Streets of Philadelphia (home of american democracy)

 

[zorq]

So, once again, no evidence.

 

[Elixir]

I have not paid much attention to what happened in WWII.

We can add it to the list.
Pro tip: to preserve credibility, don’t start lecturing people on stuff you don’t know much about and haven’t paid much attention to. Lessons you have not learned are not a solid basis for making policy recommendations to others who know more about it.

All along, I have been saying that Ukraine should not have tilted towards NATO

Repetition does not make you right. If you’re wrong, it makes you stupid. Others have shown that you’re wrong but you fail to respond to the reasons presented for your error. That you can’t even see your own hypocrisy, devalues your pronouncements to the level of toilet paper.

 

[barbos]

So, once again, no evidence.

I provided evidence the last time. I am not going to repeat the same thing for you to ignore as you did the last time.
So it is now your turn to go and and provide evidence for your RussiaGate conspiracy theories and no, AlfaBank and having russian ambassador in the same frame as some random dude from Trump gang is not it.