How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[aupmanyav]

Kinda like Putler’s claim about Ukraine.
When China claims India, you gonna talk about it?

I do not think Russia/Putin has made any such claim. War talk is OK.

 

[laughing dog]

Kinda like Putler’s claim about Ukraine.
When China claims India, you gonna talk about it?

I do not think Russia/Putin has made any such claim. War talk is OK.

Here is a link to an essay authored by Vladimir Putin entitled On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians“.
Educate yourself.

 

[aupmanyav]

.. where do you think India would be if the USA and western alliance lost power and China controlled Asian trade?
Something America bashers do not seem to consider.

China is giving low cost infrastructure loans in Asia knowing their will be defaults, then they seize the assets. Like port facilities.

If China becomes the Kublai Khan of the world, then we will do what Khan wants us to do. We would have no other option.
Even US should not try to do that. NATO is part of that exercise.
China has money. They have forex reserves of 3.5 trillion. That of US is 242 billion. Even India has 674 billion.
Trade with China will make it stronger.

When was this promise made???
Russia did promise to leave Ukraine alone in exchange for their nukes.

It was a missed opportunity and not a promise.
Russians did not expect that Ukraine will side with their arch enemy. That is where the pact ended.

 

[aupmanyav]

As the 25 year anniversary of the Moscow Apartment bombings nears, famed Russian historian and author David Satter explains why Ukraine is right to be alarmed that Moscow may plot false-flag operations, to discredit Ukraine and the West, in order to distract from Ukraine's successful incursion into Belgorod and Kursk Russia. These operations, if they were to happen, could include Russian-organized attacks on a nuclear power station, on a Russian school, or some other heinous crime that Putin would execute to preserve his power.

Well, in a war, anyone can do that. Nothing strange.

 

[aupmanyav]

I ask because you give definitive answers to motivation. If you were not part of the process to you have a primary source to support your assertion?

If Russia wanted association with NATO, it should have been encouraged. Why did West did not pursue it? They have always considered Russia as an enemy, and that is the way it ends - in wars. And why do they consider Russia as an enemy, because US thinks so. Are there no other communist regimes in the world? Just because Russia has a nuclear pile. Soon, China too will have a large nuclear pile. Whoever rules Russia, will still have the nuclear pile unless some one like Gorbachev comes to rule Russia.

 

[steve_bank]

From business reporting China is in financial trouble and has been for a while. Real estate collapse and over extending their foreign loan programs.

They are trying to stimulate internal consumption.

On top of that they have a decking population with litlle to no immigration. They are heading towards an gaing population and not enough young workers.

The CCP went from population controls to now trying to get people to have babies, even single women.

My guess is that while they have aspects of a capitalist free mater system, the CCP clings to the centralized economic control paradigm.

They are fearful of losing control.

One thing China has is occupied Indian land.

China annexed Tibet.

If I remember right China annexed Indian land for a transit corridor to Tibet.

 

[steve_bank]

I ask because you give definitive answers to motivation. If you were not part of the process to you have a primary source to support your assertion?

If Russia wanted association with NATO, it should have been encouraged. Why did West did not pursue it? They have always considered Russia as an enemy, and that is the way it ends - in wars. And why do they consider Russia as an enemy, because US thinks so. Are there no other communist regimes in the world? Just because Russia has a nuclear pile. Soon, China too will have a large nuclear pile. Whoever rules Russia, he will still have the nuclear pile.

What planet have you been living on?

Russian and Chines communism was dedicated to bringing down western liberal democracy. North America and western Europe.

That is where Putin came up. He was a KGB operative in East Germany.

Russia would not join NATO any more than Europe wolud join the Warsaw Pact.

I posed the genral requirements for joining NATO. A non starter for the Soviets and Russia today.

The Warsaw Pact was a collective defence treaty established by the Soviet Union and seven other Soviet satellite states in Central and Eastern Europe: Albania, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Hungary, Poland and Romania (Albania withdrew in 1968).

 

[aupmanyav]

Here is a link to an essay authored by Vladimir Putin entitled On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians“. Educate yourself.

What is wrong with that? Some one may write a similar article about historical unity of India and Nepal. We are both Hindu majority countries.
In the coronation of a Nepal king that was always cited, 'Jambudwipe, Bharatkhande, Nepal Rajye ..' (of the continent of Jambudwip, in the part of Bharat, the kingdom of Nepal ..), but now we are two different nations. Even now, that is recited in religious ceremonies. Of course, it is old scriptural geographic description (Jambudwip - Jambu Island, exists only in scriptures).

 

[Henry-Finland]

I hope everyone listens to this American guy - words of knowledge, logic and wisdom!

The specific issues are (in the video below):
1. The volume of information and media coverage of the Ukraine Kursk offensive.
2. The theory of US backing and The threat of "escalation."
3. The purpose of the invasion.
4. The loss of "moral high ground."
5. The Russian trope of sending cash payments to Ukraine.
6. The current operational state and purpose of the Kursk Offensive.
7. Whether NATO or the US was informed about the operation.
8. The fallacy of NATO being unable to fight a two-front war.
9. The lie or ignorance that the F-16 was involved in Kursk Operations.
10. The lie of a shortage of JDAM munitions.
11. The mislabeling of Ukrainian attacks as "Terrorism."
12. The misrepresentation of the Wall Street Journal article about the Kursk Offensive.


HERE:
Breaking Points is Misleading You on Ukraine

 

[aupmanyav]

One thing China has is occupied Indian land.
China annexed Tibet.
If I remember right China annexed Indian land for a transit corridor to Tibet.

Yes, China has occupied some land which we consider ours. But it is not something that India will start a war for. We are trying to negotiate it across the table.
Well, that was because of the 13th Dalai Lama. He considered China to be Tibet's overlord. Always went running to Beijing. He could have kept equal distance from China and the British.
China does not need a transit corridor to Tibet. It needed one to Pakistan and further to Afghanistan and Iran. China has made a road to Pakistan, but it would have been easier if it was through Ladakh which is part of India. Of course, China will occupy any land or sea if it can. It has claims all around.

 

[Henry-Finland]

As the 25 year anniversary of the Moscow Apartment bombings nears, famed Russian historian and author David Satter explains why Ukraine is right to be alarmed that Moscow may plot false-flag operations, to discredit Ukraine and the West, in order to distract from Ukraine's successful incursion into Belgorod and Kursk Russia. These operations, if they were to happen, could include Russian-organized attacks on a nuclear power station, on a Russian school, or some other heinous crime that Putin would execute to preserve his power.

Well, in a war, anyone can do that. Nothing strange.

- There was no war - those apartment bombings ignited the war.
- To bomb your own people - no enemy around, you do not do that even in a war. Except if you are a nazi or Stalin-minded (= both much the same).

 

[aupmanyav]

Steve_bank said: "The Warsaw Pact was a collective defence treaty established by the Soviet Union and seven other Soviet satellite states in Central and Eastern Europe: Albania, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Hungary, Poland and Romania (Albania withdrew in 1968)."

Warsaw pact was a reply to NATO. NATO came up in 1949. Warsaw pact came up in 1955.

 

[aupmanyav]

- There was no war - those apartment bombings ignited the war.
- To bomb your own people - no enemy around, you do not do that even in a war. Except if you are a nazi or Stalin-minded (= both much the same).

Nations do that. Do you forget the 'Iraq has WMD' done by Bush?

 

[Copernicus]

Steve_bank said: "The Warsaw Pact was a collective defence treaty established by the Soviet Union and seven other Soviet satellite states in Central and Eastern Europe: Albania, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Hungary, Poland and Romania (Albania withdrew in 1968)."

Warsaw pact was a reply to NATO. NATO came up in 1949. Warsaw pact came up in 1955.

What happened after the collapse of the Soviet Union? The Warsaw Pact was created as a reply to NATO, which you freely admit. When all of those Central European satellite nations gained their independence from the Soviet Union, why didn't they reestablish that pact to defend against NATO? Seriously. Ask yourself that Aup. You know better. Every single one of the former Warsaw pact nations applied to join NATO--the very organization that you think they wanted to defend against. They all did that, because they feared Russia would once again do what it did after WWI--try to grab back all of the border territories that it felt it had lost and was entitled to. Even the Baltic republics of Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuanian--former Soviet Socialist Republics--rushed to get into NATO. Ukraine wanted in. Even Georgia wants in. NATO did not move closer to Russian borders. Countries that were close to Russian borders joined NATO. The Warsaw Pact was created by the Russian-dominated Soviet Union to defend itself from NATO. It was not created to serve the needs of satellite nations that were forced to join the Pact.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

It was not just bombing, the issue was fire bombing. I think it was Harris who advocated terror bombing in response for German terror bombing. Churchill initially resisted on moral ground and then agreed.

The bombing of Dresden, both Brits and Americans dropped incendiaries along with high explosives. The firestorm was horrific.

Or Curtis Le May on Japan, firebombing and firestorms.

If someone is out to kill you and your family do you defend yourself according to a set of moral rules, or do you do anything to save your life and family?

Dresden was probably unwarranted. We didn't really have a choice with Japan, though, because the industry was so decentralized. Individual targets were so small as to be meaningless to the precision of the day even if they could be identified. The only way to destroy the industry was to destroy the cities.

I see you know your WWII history. Japanese industry was spread out in residential areas.

From interviews with survivors the fire storms were horrific. Wood and paper houses closely packed,

There was a program to tie incendiaries to bats and drop them over Japan. The idea was they would roost in buildings.

There was also the Dam Busters raid. and the skip bomb. The idea was to breach the dams in the Ruhr valley flooding industrial and residential areas where workers lived.

Operation Chastise - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Japan sent incendiary balloons over the USA trying to start forest fires.

When the breakout stalled in Normandy Eisenhower approved indiscriminate carpet bombing a path through French countryside.

Putin in his mind is in the WWII exi9stentiall anything goes frame of mind. I think the only restraint from, gong too far is the treat of NATO joining in.

When Russia was near Kyiv there were reports of air-fuel bombs. Release an air fuel mixture, ignite it, and it creates a vacuum and toxic gas. Inderscriminate.

Britain attacked Germany in WW2 with free floating balloons.

Operation Outward - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Henry-Finland]

- There was no war - those apartment bombings ignited the war.
- To bomb your own people - no enemy around, you do not do that even in a war. Except if you are a nazi or Stalin-minded (= both much the same).

Nations do that. Do you forget the 'Iraq has WMD' done by Bush?

So, you were wrong.
And
now you go befind whataboutism.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It was a lost opportunity. I see absolutely no problem with Russia joining in the future if it fully adopts the criteria to join NATO.

What would then be the need to have NATO? It is the existence of NATO that made Russia attack Ukraine.

Evidence?

It's the standard position of the abuser--look what you made me do.

 

[steve_bank]

Steve_bank said: "The Warsaw Pact was a collective defence treaty established by the Soviet Union and seven other Soviet satellite states in Central and Eastern Europe: Albania, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Hungary, Poland and Romania (Albania withdrew in 1968)."

Warsaw pact was a reply to NATO. NATO came up in 1949. Warsaw pact came up in 1955.

It comes down to what you choose to stand for. Western liberal democracy, rules of law domestically and internationally, free speech, free elections, civil liberties, free press...or the authoritarian rule of China and Russia.

Essentially the Cold War lines. Stalin had his eye on Eastern Europe before the war. He made a non aggression pact with Hitler for part of Poland and Finland. Stalin was the Soviet Union.

If you see nothing fundamentally wrong with what Putin is dong then there is nothing more to say.

Th term over here for you is a wet noodle.

Keep in mind before WWII the Russian communist ideology and policy was forced indoctrination of the world to communism. It is more like NATO was a response to Russian communism.


WE see that in what Putin has sad would happen to Ukraine, elimination of Ukraine culture rep[laced by Russian.

Churchill coined the term The Iron Curtain for the oppressive Russian control of client states. Walls to keep people in not out.

 

[Elixir]

Ukraine is continuing to push further into Russian territory. President Volodymyr Zelensky says Ukrainian troops have moved forward in several directions in the Kursk region. Kyiv's commander-in-chief says more than 100 Russian soldiers have been captured during the incursion into Kursk. Ukraine's operation into Russian territory is now in its second week - its deepest and most significant incursion into the country since Moscow's full-scale invasion began in 2022. A state of emergency has also been declared in a second Russian region - Belgorod - where homes have been damaged in drone attacks and shelling.

In an analogous development, Harris trails Trump in FL by ONLY THREE POINTS.

Russia has accused Ukraine of "committing crimes" -and says any prospect of peace talks are now on a "long pause".

And Trump accuses Harris of cheating...

It's like fractals.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

That probably explains what they are doing. Taking control of a railway is going to hurt Russian logistics badly.